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dForce Hair (as well as strand based hair and the strand based hair editor) in public beta

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  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,172

    Heh...funny. Got a new tablet specifically for the hair and now all the fun's gone out of it. Dumping my cart (sale's not working either) and going to bed. I guess I'll come back and check the place out in a few weeks. 

    Laurie

  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383
    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    The unavailability of HD sculpting to the general public has always made me curious, but this has made me desperately curious: are all the artists who have products for sale in the store able to access the "special features," or are there further restrictions to who can use what tools?  I consider myself moderately adept at modelling, morphing, texturing, posing, etc., so could theoretically prepare a "product" for submission, but work primarily in so obscure a niche that I doubt there would be enough interest in what I come up with to appeal to others.  Lack of HD sculpting has always been a setback in creating, because if it doesn't look real, I'm not happy with it, so I have always considered trying to become a PA just so that I could get that capability, but with the new dForce hair possibility (which is just what some of my projects needed), now I am really wondering what it would take, because realistic hairstyles (besides just long and flowing and unkempt) have been a "holy grail" for me ever since first getting into DAZ.

    With this new feature, I could realistically see braided dynamic hairstyles, as long as you can get enough control points on the curves to work with.  Yes, it would take forever to create, but it would be totally worth it!  It might take a bit of "cheating," like adding non-rendering rigid nodes for the hair to collide with or to hold it in place, but hopefully someone pursues that possibility!

  • narkfestmojonarkfestmojo Posts: 91
    VortigensBane said:
    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    The unavailability of HD sculpting to the general public has always made me curious, but this has made me desperately curious: are all the artists who have products for sale in the store able to access the "special features," or are there further restrictions to who can use what tools?  I consider myself moderately adept at modelling, morphing, texturing, posing, etc., so could theoretically prepare a "product" for submission, but work primarily in so obscure a niche that I doubt there would be enough interest in what I come up with to appeal to others.  Lack of HD sculpting has always been a setback in creating, because if it doesn't look real, I'm not happy with it, so I have always considered trying to become a PA just so that I could get that capability, but with the new dForce hair possibility (which is just what some of my projects needed), now I am really wondering what it would take, because realistic hairstyles (besides just long and flowing and unkempt) have been a "holy grail" for me ever since first getting into DAZ.

    With this new feature, I could realistically see braided dynamic hairstyles, as long as you can get enough control points on the curves to work with.  Yes, it would take forever to create, but it would be totally worth it!  It might take a bit of "cheating," like adding non-rendering rigid nodes for the hair to collide with or to hold it in place, but hopefully someone pursues that possibility!

    Is this true?

    I thought the additional HD detail was really just an illusion. You arrange the vertices in the base mesh to produce extra detail on subdivision.

    Either way, I've always thought the HD addons for core characters added hardly anything. You have to render both side by side and squint to see the difference.

  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    I don't see why you couldn't make it dfoceable the same way I can Zbrush fibermesh hair

    have a separate root surface that you dial simulation down on

    video zbrush conformed hair

    Oh you could--they just aren't letting us.

  • JoepingletonJoepingleton Posts: 746
    edited June 2019

    .

    Post edited by Joepingleton on
  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383
    narkfestmojo_2964796531 said:
    VortigensBane said:
    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    The unavailability of HD sculpting to the general public has always made me curious, but this has made me desperately curious: are all the artists who have products for sale in the store able to access the "special features," or are there further restrictions to who can use what tools?  I consider myself moderately adept at modelling, morphing, texturing, posing, etc., so could theoretically prepare a "product" for submission, but work primarily in so obscure a niche that I doubt there would be enough interest in what I come up with to appeal to others.  Lack of HD sculpting has always been a setback in creating, because if it doesn't look real, I'm not happy with it, so I have always considered trying to become a PA just so that I could get that capability, but with the new dForce hair possibility (which is just what some of my projects needed), now I am really wondering what it would take, because realistic hairstyles (besides just long and flowing and unkempt) have been a "holy grail" for me ever since first getting into DAZ.

    With this new feature, I could realistically see braided dynamic hairstyles, as long as you can get enough control points on the curves to work with.  Yes, it would take forever to create, but it would be totally worth it!  It might take a bit of "cheating," like adding non-rendering rigid nodes for the hair to collide with or to hold it in place, but hopefully someone pursues that possibility!

    Is this true?

    I thought the additional HD detail was really just an illusion. You arrange the vertices in the base mesh to produce extra detail on subdivision.

    Either way, I've always thought the HD addons for core characters added hardly anything. You have to render both side by side and squint to see the difference.

    The HD details are much more noticeable when there are additions to the base mesh like vascularity, warts,wrinkles, scars, etc..  I always buy the HD add-ons for the base characters because for close-ups, it is actually noticeable, especially with more dramatic lighting.  Both the blacksmith and his horse in this image are at subdivision level 4.  At the standard resolution they still didn't look right.

  • EboshijaanaEboshijaana Posts: 506
    Oso3D said:

    Working on a set of fur that can be applied to a variety of anthro characters. (This is several HFS shapes with Anubis skin texture)

     

    Oh, what kind of fur settings do you have on it? Like, in the distribute/etc. tabs? I have noticed that Distribution on 28.48 and Width being base: 0.20 and tip 0.05 gives decent results.

  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,479
    edited May 2019
    Joepingleton said:

    Is there a way to reset the styling of strand hair (ie remove all brushing, trimming, ect) without having to recreate a new version of strand hair? 

    There are a couple of posts earlier in this thread. Give me a minute or two, and I'll find those comments.

    Here ya go:

    Sven Dullah said:
    Eboshijaana said:

    1) The painting of the fur part has no eraser option. It would need one if a person wants to be exact.

    About nr1, if it works like in Garibaldi editor, you need to set the grayscale color to 0 and repaint, to erase.

     

    dougj said:
    Another option to erase is set the brush value to 0%.

     

    AllenArt said:

    I didn't reset any colors to erase. I just put the Value slider to zero and painted over what I didn't want. Thanks to BlueIrene for that one ;).

    Laurie

     

    You'll find these comments on Page 4.

    Post edited by L'Adair on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320

    Some nice cat & mouse fur in this thread. I have lots of old DAZ animals that will get a boost from this strand hair.

    Did I understand the bit about not being able to turn strand hair into dForce hair by being restricted only to DAZ 3D staff and PAs even when DAZ Studio 4.11.x is released to the general public or is it the case that we, the non-PA & non-DAZ 3D staff DAZ Studio hobbyists, don't have access to the strand hair to dForce hair function only during the DS 4.11.x public betas but will get access when the DS 4.11.x are released out of beta?

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320
    edited May 2019

    dub

    Post edited by nonesuch00 on
  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,479

    @nonesuch00, based on the comments I've quoted below, it looks like the ability to convert our own strand-based hair to dForce is going to be a PA-only feature, just as the ability to create HD is only available to PAs.

    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    The hair tools are enhanced over Garibaldi, and you can export as OBJ and treat it like dForce cloth (but not hair).

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Not the basic strand hair that isn't dForce, which is what we can create, but the dForce hair that PAs will (hopefully) be making yes.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Without the ability to create the dForce hair - you will be able to use it.

     

  • JoepingletonJoepingleton Posts: 746
    edited June 2019

    .

    Post edited by Joepingleton on
  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    L'Adair said:

    @nonesuch00, based on the comments I've quoted below, it looks like the ability to convert our own strand-based hair to dForce is going to be a PA-only feature, just as the ability to create HD is only available to PAs.

    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    The hair tools are enhanced over Garibaldi, and you can export as OBJ and treat it like dForce cloth (but not hair).

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Not the basic strand hair that isn't dForce, which is what we can create, but the dForce hair that PAs will (hopefully) be making yes.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Without the ability to create the dForce hair - you will be able to use it.

     

    Yeah, it appears to be the case. I find this to be pretty awful, to be honest. Why even give us the strand hair? It's a tease.

    What's next? Soft body physics but it's a $49 add-on per model in addition to HD?

  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383
    edited May 2019

    The most messiest, positively scraggly, poorly proportioned braid I have ever done, but this was just a quick test to see how well my theory about being able to create braided hairstyles with the new tool works.  Marvelously pleased with myself, I must admit...

     

    strand based braid 001.jpg
    1600 x 270 - 164K
    Post edited by VortigensBane on
  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,796
    edited May 2019
    Leonides02 said:

    Yeah, it appears to be the case. I find this to be pretty awful, to be honest. Why even give us the strand hair? It's a tease.

    What's next? Soft body physics but it's a $49 add-on per model in addition to HD?

    It is clear now that DS will not be an open platform as far as physics and FX are concerned. That's one more reason to use Blender. Apart cycles and eevee and the animation tools that are far better and faster.

    That said, I believe this is anyway a very nice step forward for DS. With strands alone it is possible to make nice short hair and fur that will not require dForce to be usable. Also may be converting to polylines and using the standard dForce for clothing may give some usable results.

     

    EDIT. And the blender plugin can also convert geometry hair to strands already, and/or apply physics.

    http://diffeomorphic.blogspot.com/p/hair.html

    Post edited by Padone on
  • joseftjoseft Posts: 310
    Leonides02 said:
    L'Adair said:

    @nonesuch00, based on the comments I've quoted below, it looks like the ability to convert our own strand-based hair to dForce is going to be a PA-only feature, just as the ability to create HD is only available to PAs.

    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    The hair tools are enhanced over Garibaldi, and you can export as OBJ and treat it like dForce cloth (but not hair).

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Not the basic strand hair that isn't dForce, which is what we can create, but the dForce hair that PAs will (hopefully) be making yes.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Without the ability to create the dForce hair - you will be able to use it.

     

    Yeah, it appears to be the case. I find this to be pretty awful, to be honest. Why even give us the strand hair? It's a tease.

    What's next? Soft body physics but it's a $49 add-on per model in addition to HD?

     

    Honestly, having those features as paid add-ons would not be a bad thing. They are the kind of features that are found in far more advanced and expensive software than DS, so having them in a free application at no extra cost would be very nice, but i would never expect it from Daz. 

  • ArtiniArtini Posts: 9,723
    Oso3D said:

    Working on a set of fur that can be applied to a variety of anthro characters. (This is several HFS shapes with Anubis skin texture)

     

    That looks great. Is this made only with the strand base hair editor?

    How do you create materials for the fur (do they take underlying skin to account)?

     

  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383

    It was mentioned earlier that with the dual lobe shader, applying the texture map of the underlying figure to the four "color' slots allows the fur to adopt the character texture.

  • L'AdairL'Adair Posts: 9,479
    Joepingleton said:
    L'Adair said:
    Joepingleton said:

    Is there a way to reset the styling of strand hair (ie remove all brushing, trimming, ect) without having to recreate a new version of strand hair? 

    There are a couple of posts earlier in this thread. Give me a minute or two, and I'll find those comments.

    Here ya go:

    Sven Dullah said:
    Eboshijaana said:

    1) The painting of the fur part has no eraser option. It would need one if a person wants to be exact.

    About nr1, if it works like in Garibaldi editor, you need to set the grayscale color to 0 and repaint, to erase.

     

    dougj said:
    Another option to erase is set the brush value to 0%.

     

    AllenArt said:

    I didn't reset any colors to erase. I just put the Value slider to zero and painted over what I didn't want. Thanks to BlueIrene for that one ;).

    Laurie

     

    You'll find these comments on Page 4.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, they don't address my specific question. Those links discuss modifying the painting of the hair coverage in the "Distribution" tab.  What I was inquiring about was if there is a way to reset the elements in the "Style" tab. The problem I am having is that I created a strand hair set for an animal and brushed the fur to match the pose. Now I want to use a different pose and start over with a clean pelt that hasn't been brushed (groomed?) but keeps all the other settings (ie. setup, paint, distribute, clump, tweak). The first way I was doing this was starting from scratch on a new strand hair object and recreate all the settings except the "style" options.  Now I just save a preset before I brush the hair so that I can reload it if I have to start over. It's still not a very efficient solution and it would be so much easier to be able to just "Unbrush/Reset" the hair in the  "Style" tab.

    I'm sorry. I obviously misunderstood what you were asking.

    I agree, it would be really nice to have a Reset Grooming option. Maybe even a Reset Grooming Brush! (To undo grooming in specific areas of change.) I've no idea if such a thing is possible, but I do hope Daz is "listening."

  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383

    Is it just me, or has anyone else had problems with Studio crashing if you try to increase the length of the hairs in the "distribute" tab after you have already opened the "style" tab?

    A "reset grooming" / "restore to default" option would indeed be nice.

  • Hurdy3DHurdy3D Posts: 1,058
    L'Adair said:

    @nonesuch00, based on the comments I've quoted below, it looks like the ability to convert our own strand-based hair to dForce is going to be a PA-only feature, just as the ability to create HD is only available to PAs.

     

    That totally sucks no

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,770
    Leonides02 said:
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    I don't see why you couldn't make it dfoceable the same way I can Zbrush fibermesh hair

    have a separate root surface that you dial simulation down on

    video zbrush conformed hair

    Oh you could--they just aren't letting us.

    No, you can - as was, I think, said above - use strand hair as cloth as dForce cloth - just as you can with mesh from outside DS, as shown in the various dForce hairs in the store. What you can't do is use it as dForce Hair, which has options and optimisations specific to hair.

  • SzarkSzark Posts: 10,634
    Divamakeup said:
    Szark said:

    It amazes me how quick some of you are and getting awesome results, took me ages to get the hang of Garibaldi. 

    I have had Garibaldi Hair plugin for quite a few years and only made a handful of renders using it. Not because of the plug-in just because it takes time and the last few years time has been short. I am showing these to show what can be done and I have no doubt the reworked internal strand hair should be no different and work well.

    This is all 3DL before Iray came out

    This was my first play and render doing spines back in '13

    https://www.deviantart.com/itiseyemeeszark/art/Brian-377346493

    '14 

    https://www.deviantart.com/itiseyemeeszark/art/Xerr-s-got-a-new-coat-428585798

    The beard and dog

    https://www.deviantart.com/itiseyemeeszark/art/Singing-the-Blues-Take-3-447219377

    Just the birds body (if I had used the clumping I could have gotten and fairly good facsimile of feathers)

    https://www.deviantart.com/itiseyemeeszark/art/Paridise-Lost-446824876

     

    This was Iray, exported out the hair as obj, glad we don't need to do that anymore.

    https://www.deviantart.com/itiseyemeeszark/art/Foraging-611119379

    I haven't had a good look at the new internal UI yet but Gone made some better human hair renders in the old Garibaldi thread. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/17751/garibaldi-express-hair-and-fur-plugin-commercial/p1 It might be some help but don't slap me if the new UI is completely different. :) 

    Wow - Those are really cool! I particularly like the red birds and the foraging ones. Using the hair plugin for "feathers" is a fantastic idea. I hope we can do similar things with the new Strand Based Hair system. :) 

    thank you and thank you for the favs on dA. I can't see why we couldn't do it with the new system. I will have to have a good look at the UI and see if it can, when I get some time

  • VortigensBaneVortigensBane Posts: 383
    Richard Haseltine said:

    No, you can - as was, I think, said above - use strand hair as cloth as dForce cloth - just as you can with mesh from outside DS, as shown in the various dForce hairs in the store. What you can't do is use it as dForce Hair, which has options and optimisations specific to hair.

    I am going to have to investigate that.  Hopefully it doesn't involve enormous geometry files like exporting LAMH presets does.

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,959

    I know it may not make me very popular for saying, but we have to keep in mind that DAZ is a content company, not a software company. They only develop the software so that there is a platform to run their content.

    The fact that they give out ANY development tools at all is very generous. Cant see many software companies that would give the general public tools to compete with their own sales. It does not make much business sense to do that, but DAZ still goes out of their way to develop such things...and still give the software away for free.

     

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,172
    edited May 2019

    Let me start off by saying that I don't mind paying for software. I paid for Poser for years. Having said that, I appreciate the software for free, BUT:

    The fact that Daz think that giving us the ability to create something and thinking we won't still buy it ready made, just tells me they still don't know all of us very well even after all these years. This crowd buys anything and everything, regardless if we can make it or not. There is but a very small segment of users that are even capable of content creation, even when they have the tools. Remember that elusive thing in Poser called the cloth room? Yeah, it went virtually ignored for over a decade even though it was the best thing since sliced bread. IT also has dynamic hair, which also still goes unused. My point - Daz apparently still doesn't know its audience.

    Laurie

    Post edited by AllenArt on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320
    L'Adair said:

    @nonesuch00, based on the comments I've quoted below, it looks like the ability to convert our own strand-based hair to dForce is going to be a PA-only feature, just as the ability to create HD is only available to PAs.

    DAZ_Steve said:

    The publicly available tools allow customers to make strand based hair, and to use dForce hair, but not to turn Strand based hair into dForce hair.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    The hair tools are enhanced over Garibaldi, and you can export as OBJ and treat it like dForce cloth (but not hair).

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Not the basic strand hair that isn't dForce, which is what we can create, but the dForce hair that PAs will (hopefully) be making yes.

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Without the ability to create the dForce hair - you will be able to use it.

     

    Thanks, that's what I read too but I thought maybe they were referring to a restriction because the dForce Hair was still in an 'alpha state'. If it stay like that with it's general release that is very disappointing - chances are a few PAs are not going to make the dForce hair I'm after.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320
    Joepingleton said:
    L'Adair said:
    Joepingleton said:

    Is there a way to reset the styling of strand hair (ie remove all brushing, trimming, ect) without having to recreate a new version of strand hair? 

    There are a couple of posts earlier in this thread. Give me a minute or two, and I'll find those comments.

    Here ya go:

    Sven Dullah said:
    Eboshijaana said:

    1) The painting of the fur part has no eraser option. It would need one if a person wants to be exact.

    About nr1, if it works like in Garibaldi editor, you need to set the grayscale color to 0 and repaint, to erase.

     

    dougj said:
    Another option to erase is set the brush value to 0%.

     

    AllenArt said:

    I didn't reset any colors to erase. I just put the Value slider to zero and painted over what I didn't want. Thanks to BlueIrene for that one ;).

    Laurie

     

    You'll find these comments on Page 4.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, they don't address my specific question. Those links discuss modifying the painting of the hair coverage in the "Distribution" tab.  What I was inquiring about was if there is a way to reset the elements in the "Style" tab. The problem I am having is that I created a strand hair set for an animal and brushed the fur to match the pose. Now I want to use a different pose and start over with a clean pelt that hasn't been brushed (groomed?) but keeps all the other settings (ie. setup, paint, distribute, clump, tweak). The first way I was doing this was starting from scratch on a new strand hair object and recreate all the settings except the "style" options.  Now I just save a preset before I brush the hair so that I can reload it if I have to start over. It's still not a very efficient solution and it would be so much easier to be able to just "Unbrush/Reset" the hair in the  "Style" tab.

    If you go to the 'Style' tab, click on the segmented curve with the gear icon, at the top of the list of options is 'Curve Options' and a button that says 'Reset Curves' that resets all curves on your currently editing strand hair.

    I have not used it yet but I think 'Curve Selection Sets' can select subsets of the curves for the currently edited strand hair and the 'Reset Curves' would then only reset the currently selected 'Curve Selection Sets' but as I said I have not tried utilizing the 'Curve Selection Sets' yet to be sure.

    I know of no other 'reset to defaults on the other tabs that I could find.

  • DisparateDreamerDisparateDreamer Posts: 2,514
    AllenArt said:

    Let me start off by saying that I don't mind paying for software. I paid for Poser for years. Having said that, I appreciate the software for free, BUT:

    The fact that Daz think that giving us the ability to create something and thinking we won't still buy it ready made, just tells me they still don't know all of us very well even after all these years. This crowd buys anything and everything, regardless if we can make it or not. There is but a very small segment of users that are even capable of content creation, even when they have the tools. Remember that elusive thing in Poser called the cloth room? Yeah, it went virtually ignored for over a decade even though it was the best thing since sliced bread. IT also has dynamic hair, which also still goes unused. My point - Daz apparently still doesn't know its audience.

    Laurie

    Gee I thought the Poser hair room flopped because A: it took too much memory, and B: was tedious to set up and slow to use. And even then didn't look very good. I made fur items in both Daz and Poser, and poser, except for the very latest version and a very good computer, couldn't handle it. It was a good start but never improved, and Poser help said clearly they had no intention of improving hair room function, EVER. 

    People will buy tools. They'll also buy ready. Nothign wrong with both, and more power to the user. Yay for development that continues to evolve and grow and not stagnate!

     

  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    Joepingleton said:
    L'Adair said:
    Joepingleton said:

    Is there a way to reset the styling of strand hair (ie remove all brushing, trimming, ect) without having to recreate a new version of strand hair? 

    There are a couple of posts earlier in this thread. Give me a minute or two, and I'll find those comments.

    Here ya go:

    Sven Dullah said:
    Eboshijaana said:

    1) The painting of the fur part has no eraser option. It would need one if a person wants to be exact.

    About nr1, if it works like in Garibaldi editor, you need to set the grayscale color to 0 and repaint, to erase.

     

    dougj said:
    Another option to erase is set the brush value to 0%.

     

    AllenArt said:

    I didn't reset any colors to erase. I just put the Value slider to zero and painted over what I didn't want. Thanks to BlueIrene for that one ;).

    Laurie

     

    You'll find these comments on Page 4.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, they don't address my specific question. Those links discuss modifying the painting of the hair coverage in the "Distribution" tab.  What I was inquiring about was if there is a way to reset the elements in the "Style" tab. The problem I am having is that I created a strand hair set for an animal and brushed the fur to match the pose. Now I want to use a different pose and start over with a clean pelt that hasn't been brushed (groomed?) but keeps all the other settings (ie. setup, paint, distribute, clump, tweak). The first way I was doing this was starting from scratch on a new strand hair object and recreate all the settings except the "style" options.  Now I just save a preset before I brush the hair so that I can reload it if I have to start over. It's still not a very efficient solution and it would be so much easier to be able to just "Unbrush/Reset" the hair in the  "Style" tab.

    "Style workspace, Style Curve Options tool, Reset Curves"

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