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dForce Hair (as well as strand based hair and the strand based hair editor) in public beta

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  • skinklizzardskinklizzard Posts: 218
    edited June 2019

    Played around with the Lancy hair and character today, its going to take some fiddling with dforce settings to get it exactly right much like with dforce clothes.

    not being able to really pose/adjust dforce hair prior to sim means you may have to get creative with helper objects or wind nodes in an animation.

    I have a few more things I want to try out, like an attempt to make the femme fatale hair into a pony tail

    but for now a 4 second or so clip of poorly animated hands running through the lancy hair

    Post edited by skinklizzard on
  • DiomedeDiomede Posts: 15,225

    Thank you to everyone posting test renders.  

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    edited June 2019
    nicstt said:

    No idea, but perhaps.

    I do know I was vociferous in my criticism of Daz at that time; I feel the same, except in Daz's favour, this time. I'd explain why, except I don't want any post adjustments.

    How is this even mildly defensable?

    This is a fundimental functionality feature and RawArt above actually mentioned the EXACT reason people would still happily come to Daz to buy dForce strand based hairs even if everyone could use them.

    That being the fact that it takes time and effort to learn how to master the techniques on how to make hair and fur using the strand based hair engine that doesn't look like crap.

    Yes, I am sure if they enabled it there would be some good content posted as freebies and dForce Hair assets would inevitably end up on Renderosity and probably Renderotica (dForce enabled pubes! Because REASONS!)... but most people would still come here, look at the very realistic and characterfully styled hairs and buy them with a smile.

    Infact I'd argue it would be more profitable because it would allow us normies to learn the Hair dForce engine and considering that even with the learning curve, strand based hair is still signifigantly easier than Mesh based hair, you'd probably have more people making haircuts looking to become PAs. More PAs making more hair means more options for us and more money for Daz. Yey.

    Here's the funny thing, if Daz said this was a limited thing, and they'd be opening it up in 6 or so months I'd actually be well pleased and would shut up. Yes, they're a buisness and some degree of protectionism is understandable, especially when you use a Razor Salesman model like Daz. Give the PA's 6 months to build up a sizable invantory to make sure they have fully developed the skills and have a backlog so their rival storefronts can't step in or the established PAs get pushed out.

    That would be reasonable.

    No dForce Hair. Period? That's simply ridiclious.

    And here's the funny thing. Just incase you think I'm a whiner who wants free stuff?

    I'm running an AMD card.

    I do most of my renders in Blender and mostly use Daz for purely for character design.

    I can't even USE dForce*. 

    This is purely an ETHICS issue to me.

    *well, technically I can... but realistically? Heheh. No.

    Post edited by Psyckosama on
  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,596

    @nicstt Just make us some Dforce hairs for V4 and M4 hell even M3, V3, A3 whatever people request

    put it in the store and we might be halfway happier since you are a PA

    if DAZ wants to withhold the technology give us the damned products!

  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,172
    edited June 2019
    Mendoman said:

    I agree with @outrider. It's not a good practice to anger your customers. I won't go as far as promising to never buy dForce hair, but at least currently I will also vote with my wallet against dForce hair, unless Daz considers their current stance. 

    PS: Also comments from PAs like "I for one have been enjoying following this thread and seeing the progress everyone is making with dforce hair" are really not good for moral, when in reality, it's only a handfull of privileged people who actually are able to play with it.

    Plus, most of the thread is strand based hair, since that is the only hair we peons are allowed to play with. <---one more person that has zero intentions of buying dforce hair (unless it's using cloth and it's Linday's).

    @Divamakup: mixing the strand and transmapped hair turned out very nice. You definitely have a knack for this ;).

    Laurie

    Post edited by AllenArt on
  • DisparateDreamerDisparateDreamer Posts: 2,514
    skinklizzard said:

    Played around with the Lancy hair and character today, its going to take some fiddling with dforce settings to get it exactly right much like with dforce clothes.

    not being able to really pose/adjust dforce hair prior to sim means you may have to get creative with helper objects or wind nodes in an animation.

    I have a few more things I want to try out, like an attempt to make the femme fatale hair into a pony tail

    but for now a 4 second or so clip of poorly animated hands running through the lancy hair

    Hamster should get you on board.... "poorly animated" or not you made that hair look gorgeous... and I somehow missed that it was even dforce hair in the desc til i saw your animation. ;) Nice work! 

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,955
    Paradigm said:

    To anyone who's used one of the new dforce strand based hairs... How does it handdle colliding with hands, fingers and other small objects? Attempting to use some of the older ones resulted in some pretty ugly results. Also, is it possible / easy to adjust the hair to a good pre-drape position?

    I have had no issues with hand or other small objects.  The PhilW's two hairs come with a few pre-drape morphs to help.  Depending on what you are looking to accomplish, you may want to do an animated drape instead of a static drape.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    Odaa said:
    Divamakeup said:

    The strand hair works great for enhancing older poly hair, I think. Here's my experiment with an older Genesis 2 poly hair with some strand based hair added to it:

    Here's the hair without the Strand Based Hair enhancements (the "before"):

     

    I think the poly plane hair and strand based hair blend turned nicely. I can see the strand hair helping to enhance a lot of the older poly hair. One has to apply the same hair shader to both the poly hair and the strand hair - and that seems to bend them together pretty well, I think.

    I'm looking forward to experimenting a bit more with the poly plane hair/strand based hair mixing.

    That really seems to help alot with the top of the head-good job! Does it add much to render time?

    I wish I had taken note of the exact render times, so I'm not sure, but it didn't seem like there was a significant difference in the render times between the two. Perhaps because there's not a lot of strand hair there, just enough to fluff over the top and create a little more realistic imperfections and soften up the main "part" area. :)

  • OdaaOdaa Posts: 1,548
    Divamakeup said:
    Odaa said:
    Divamakeup said:

    The strand hair works great for enhancing older poly hair, I think. Here's my experiment with an older Genesis 2 poly hair with some strand based hair added to it:

    Here's the hair without the Strand Based Hair enhancements (the "before"):

     

    I think the poly plane hair and strand based hair blend turned nicely. I can see the strand hair helping to enhance a lot of the older poly hair. One has to apply the same hair shader to both the poly hair and the strand hair - and that seems to bend them together pretty well, I think.

    I'm looking forward to experimenting a bit more with the poly plane hair/strand based hair mixing.

    That really seems to help alot with the top of the head-good job! Does it add much to render time?

    I wish I had taken note of the exact render times, so I'm not sure, but it didn't seem like there was a significant difference in the render times between the two. Perhaps because there's not a lot of strand hair there, just enough to fluff over the top and create a little more realistic imperfections and soften up the main "part" area. :)

    That's good to know, and makes sense given that you weren't throwing tons of strands around. :)

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746

    Thank you for the sweet comments and feedback guys - that put a huge smile on my face and was really nice to wake up to! :D You guys made my day! heart

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    edited June 2019
    Psyckosama said:
    nicstt said:

    No idea, but perhaps.

    I do know I was vociferous in my criticism of Daz at that time; I feel the same, except in Daz's favour, this time. I'd explain why, except I don't want any post adjustments.

    How is this even mildly defensable?

    This is a fundimental functionality feature and RawArt above actually mentioned the EXACT reason people would still happily come to Daz to buy dForce strand based hairs even if everyone could use them.

    That being the fact that it takes time and effort to learn how to master the techniques on how to make hair and fur using the strand based hair engine that doesn't look like crap.

     

    I think there might be some misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, dForce hair is just strand hair (or other hair) with dForce hair settings applied to it. There's nothing at all stopping anyone from learning Strand Based Hair. It's free, all the tools are free, right there in Daz Studio 4.11. The only difference is that the dForce hair settings won't be applied to it. 

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    grinch2901 said:
    Divamakeup said:

    The strand hair works great for enhancing older poly hair, I think. Here's my experiment with an older Genesis 2 poly hair with some strand based hair added to it:

     

    Here's the hair without the Strand Based Hair enhancements (the "before"):

     

     

    I think the poly plane hair and strand based hair blend turned nicely. I can see the strand hair helping to enhance a lot of the older poly hair. One has to apply the same hair shader to both the poly hair and the strand hair - and that seems to bend them together pretty well, I think.

    I'm looking forward to experimenting a bit more with the poly plane hair/strand based hair mixing.

    Great idea, I thought I'd do an experiment where I took an old v4 hair that I converted up to G8 which unfortunately has some very obvious flat planes, add some strands to it, and as a third itesm add a geometry shell.  I found when I was experimenting with converting older hairs to dForce that they got whispy so addint a geometry shell with a negative offset would fill in the gaps a bit (if you give the geometry shell the same texture as the hair, of course).

    Here are the results.  Pic 1 is original, pic 2 is with strands, pic 3 is with strands and geo-shell.  A couple of observations:

    1. I painted onto the hair, not the skull cap because of the hairband and I wanted to follow those curves.  So basically just the base of the bangs and the roots of the where the side / back leave the scalp
    2. I used the comb to start it in the right directions and then used the surface attract curves to pull the hair down onto the geometry of the original hair.  I was helped by the fact that I started with the hair, not the skullcap.  It took the shape of the hair pretty easily this way.
    3. Tweaked with the comb and all that.

    The strands make the top and sides a little less flat looking but are too messy.  The geomety shell made a difference filling some larger gaps in the original model I think.  It still isn't fooling anyone but I think it's better and not half bad looking for a V4 hair, especially since I didn't spend much time at all on it.   Cool idea.

    EDIT: I just figured out that at least the last render (maybe all three) have the denoiser activated and that makes hair look a little painterly unless you run it a long time, which i didn't. So some of the detail is missing from the hair.  But you hopefully get the idea.

     

    That looks great! It came out cool! I think I like the second one the best - that one, to me, seems to have the most "natural" feel to it, imo. Nicely done!

  • skinklizzardskinklizzard Posts: 218
    edited June 2019

    so with a bit of timeline shenanigins and moving around of primitives I have achieved my first attempt at making the dforce femme fatale hair into a ponytail.

    The down side is that I don't think its possible to tell a dforce sim to start from a previous simulations end state, so any posing etc will have to come afterwards in the timeline and I'll need to sim the whole thing each time.

    The band/scrunchie or whatever its called is not attached to anything at the moment but I'll probably just parent it to the head for posing for now, later I will try adding dforce to it and see how many times I can get it to explode.

    image

    PonyTail_femmefatale_attempt1.png
    1600 x 1600 - 3M
    Post edited by skinklizzard on
  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    edited June 2019
    Divamakeup said:
    Psyckosama said:
    nicstt said:

    No idea, but perhaps.

    I do know I was vociferous in my criticism of Daz at that time; I feel the same, except in Daz's favour, this time. I'd explain why, except I don't want any post adjustments.

    How is this even mildly defensable?

    This is a fundimental functionality feature and RawArt above actually mentioned the EXACT reason people would still happily come to Daz to buy dForce strand based hairs even if everyone could use them.

    That being the fact that it takes time and effort to learn how to master the techniques on how to make hair and fur using the strand based hair engine that doesn't look like crap.

     

    I think there might be some misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, dForce hair is just strand hair (or other hair) with dForce hair settings applied to it. There's nothing at all stopping anyone from learning Strand Based Hair. It's free, all the tools are free, right there in Daz Studio 4.11. The only difference is that the dForce hair settings won't be applied to it. 

    There is no misunderstanding. I know exactly what dForce hair is. It's the hair physics on switch.

    But, you'll know better than most... there is a difference in technique between making static fiber hairs and fiber hairs designed to react to wind and gravity. That is the skill set I'm talking about. That takes time and effort to learn.

    Post edited by Psyckosama on
  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,636
    edited June 2019
    skinklizzard said:

    The down side is that I don't think its possible to tell a dforce sim to start from a previous simulations end state, so any posing etc will have to come afterwards in the timeline and I'll need to sim the whole thing each time.

    Sure there is - we call them morphs around here! Export the hair as .obj and run Morph Loader Pro before clearing and running the 2nd sim. The other approach is to set the timeline itself to start at the end of the ponytail sim (you won't have to re-sim the ponytail).

    - Greg

    ETA: Very cool, BTW.

    Post edited by algovincian on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    Psyckosama said:
    Divamakeup said:
    Psyckosama said:
    nicstt said:

    No idea, but perhaps.

    I do know I was vociferous in my criticism of Daz at that time; I feel the same, except in Daz's favour, this time. I'd explain why, except I don't want any post adjustments.

    How is this even mildly defensable?

    This is a fundimental functionality feature and RawArt above actually mentioned the EXACT reason people would still happily come to Daz to buy dForce strand based hairs even if everyone could use them.

    That being the fact that it takes time and effort to learn how to master the techniques on how to make hair and fur using the strand based hair engine that doesn't look like crap.

     

    I think there might be some misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, dForce hair is just strand hair (or other hair) with dForce hair settings applied to it. There's nothing at all stopping anyone from learning Strand Based Hair. It's free, all the tools are free, right there in Daz Studio 4.11. The only difference is that the dForce hair settings won't be applied to it. 

    There is no misunderstanding. I know exactly what dForce hair is. It's the hair physics on switch.

    But, you'll know better than most... there is a difference in technique between making static fiber hairs and fiber hairs designed to react to wind and gravity. That is the skill set I'm talking about. That takes time and effort to learn.

    lol How would I "know better than most"? I've never made dForce hair. And how is there a "difference in technique between making static fiber hair and hair designed for dForce"?

  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,959

    dForce hair is made from the static strand hair. There is no difference in process for making the hair. It is the same thing. All dForce hair is made out of strand hair.

    You make and style the strand hair and then when it is done and complete, is when it can get converted to dForce. There is no mystical magical difference in technique. It is the exact same hair base.

    After it is made and converted there are parameters that we can edit to get it to flow how we want, but there is no going backwards again, no need to do anything different with the strand hair if it is going to be converted. You make and finish the strand hair exactly the same way.

     

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    Divamakeup said:

    lol How would I "know better than most"? I've never made dForce hair. And how is there a "difference in technique between making static fiber hair and hair designed for dForce"?

    Because, unlike us you can actually... boot up the tool, play around with it, and... you know... apply physics to hair? frown

     

    RawArt said:

    dForce hair is made from the static strand hair. There is no difference in process for making the hair. It is the same thing. All dForce hair is made out of strand hair.

    You make and style the strand hair and then when it is done and complete, is when it can get converted to dForce. There is no mystical magical difference in technique. It is the exact same hair base.

    After it is made and converted there are parameters that we can edit to get it to flow how we want, but there is no going backwards again, no need to do anything different with the strand hair if it is going to be converted. You make and finish the strand hair exactly the same way.

    Strand hair is groomed to shape to match the character and pose.

    dForce hair is groomed to shape in a manner that allows it to realistically fall and move with a charcter who is not going to be in the one pose it was deisgned for.

    It is simular, yes. but not the same.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,596

    Adair has started a thread, maybe let all those buyers post their great renders here instead cheeky

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    Wendy_Carrara said:

    Adair has started a thread, maybe let all those buyers post their great renders here instead cheeky

    I actually think it would have probably been better to move the pictures than the argument.

    Trying to move arguments tends to just gives people two places to complain.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    Psyckosama said:
    Divamakeup said:

    lol How would I "know better than most"? I've never made dForce hair. And how is there a "difference in technique between making static fiber hair and hair designed for dForce"?

    Because, unlike us you can actually... boot up the tool, play around with it, and... you know... apply physics to hair? frown

     

    RawArt said:

    dForce hair is made from the static strand hair. There is no difference in process for making the hair. It is the same thing. All dForce hair is made out of strand hair.

    You make and style the strand hair and then when it is done and complete, is when it can get converted to dForce. There is no mystical magical difference in technique. It is the exact same hair base.

    After it is made and converted there are parameters that we can edit to get it to flow how we want, but there is no going backwards again, no need to do anything different with the strand hair if it is going to be converted. You make and finish the strand hair exactly the same way.

    Strand hair is groomed to shape to match the character and pose.

    dForce hair is groomed to shape in a manner that allows it to realistically fall and move with a charcter who is not going to be in the one pose it was deisgned for.

    It is simular, yes. but not the same.

    I think you're arguing semantics. The tools are there for people to learn - the only difference is that dForce settings won't be applied. You've had someone who's made several dForce hair products tell you that the tools are there to learn, and others have pointed out the steps that you can take if you want to present it to Daz for possible sale, if that's what you want.

    If you want to continue to argue over the issue please move it to the complaint thread so that this thread doesn't get closed. This thread has a lot of great info in it and it's awesome seeing what the community is creating with the strand based hair. I would hate to see it get closed. 

  • JoepingletonJoepingleton Posts: 746
    edited June 2019

    ,

    Post edited by Joepingleton on
  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    Joepingleton said:

    I have been considering trying to become a PA by selling my Strand Based Hair for Daz Dog 8. The problem is that it really should be dForce SBH but I can't create dForce SBH unless I am a PA ;)

    Which is the exact point we're making in the new split-off thread, Joe. :)

  • Leonides02Leonides02 Posts: 1,379
    Divamakeup said:
    I think you're arguing semantics. The tools are there for people to learn - the only difference is that dForce settings won't be applied. You've had someone who's made several dForce hair products tell you that the tools are there to learn, and others have pointed out the steps that you can take if you want to present it to Daz for possible sale, if that's what you want.

    C'mon, Diva. This is like people making dForce clothes but being unable to test them with dForce.

  • PsyckosamaPsyckosama Posts: 495
    Divamakeup said:

    I think you're arguing semantics. The tools are there for people to learn - the only difference is that dForce settings won't be applied. You've had someone who's made several dForce hair products tell you that the tools are there to learn, and others have pointed out the steps that you can take if you want to present it to Daz for possible sale, if that's what you want.

    If you want to continue to argue over the issue please move it to the complaint thread so that this thread doesn't get closed. This thread has a lot of great info in it and it's awesome seeing what the community is creating with the strand based hair. I would hate to see it get closed. 

    No. I'm really not. It's the same basic toolkit, but a fundimentally different approch. As I clearly stated in the very post you just replied to.

    Hardly sematnics.

    RawArt's making fur products which are generally a lot more forgiving than actual heads of hair. They are normally short (meaning gravity's effect is less apparant) and require little to no styling. They're also the type of hair that benefits least from dForce, as the number of people who've posted images of animals can attest. For that kind of thing, dForce is simply gravy. Full heads of physics enabled hair ready to call into place are very different from pose-sculpted strand hair.

    To that point, correct me if I'm wrong, but just about everything I've heard so far about submitting products to Daz is they normally want a finished product, or at least something with good pictures for the storefront they can approve. The kind of ultra bed-head "I just stuck my finger in a light socket" look that would be the unsimulated state of a head of dForce hair would be anything but a sellable product on its own.

    Joepingleton said:

    I have been considering trying to become a PA by selling my Strand Based Hair for all the Daz Dog 8 breeds. The problem is that they really should be dForce SBH but I can't create dForce SBH unless I am a PA.  I guess I might have to just give them away for free ;)

    Behold, the Catch 22!

    You want to make a dForce product to sell, but you can't sell it because its not dForce. wink

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746
    Leonides02 said:
    Divamakeup said:
    I think you're arguing semantics. The tools are there for people to learn - the only difference is that dForce settings won't be applied. You've had someone who's made several dForce hair products tell you that the tools are there to learn, and others have pointed out the steps that you can take if you want to present it to Daz for possible sale, if that's what you want.

    C'mon, Diva. This is like people making dForce clothes but being unable to test them with dForce.

    That's a nice comparison because you have to start out with a nice complete outfit - it has to be a whole complete outfit then dForce is worked in later. Same with dForce hair. The tools are there to learn how to make the hair. If it's cool and you want to submit it to Daz, then do it - if they like it and take you on as a PA then you can add some dForce to it. And again, if you want to keep arguing over this - PLEASE take it to the Complaint Thread. 

  • JoepingletonJoepingleton Posts: 746
    edited June 2019

    ,

    Post edited by Joepingleton on
  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,959
    Psyckosama said:
     

    To that point, correct me if I'm wrong, but just about everything I've heard so far about submitting products to Daz is they normally want a finished product, or at least something with good pictures for the storefront they can approve. The kind of ultra bed-head "I just stuck my finger in a light socket" look that would be the unsimulated state of a head of dForce hair would be anything but a sellable product on its own.

    You are wrong

    Hair is completely done and styled before becoming dForce...how you are imagining it working is not how it works. ....as I already explained.

     

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,746

    I won't be responding in this thread to people who want to argue, there is a separate thread for complaints: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/334451/dforce-hair-creation-for-pas-only-discussion-thread

    I'd like to keep this thread open, please keep it civil and please keep it where it belongs. 

  • OdaaOdaa Posts: 1,548
    grinch2901 said:
    Divamakeup said:

    The strand hair works great for enhancing older poly hair, I think. Here's my experiment with an older Genesis 2 poly hair with some strand based hair added to it:

     

    Here's the hair without the Strand Based Hair enhancements (the "before"):

     

     

    I think the poly plane hair and strand based hair blend turned nicely. I can see the strand hair helping to enhance a lot of the older poly hair. One has to apply the same hair shader to both the poly hair and the strand hair - and that seems to bend them together pretty well, I think.

    I'm looking forward to experimenting a bit more with the poly plane hair/strand based hair mixing.

    Great idea, I thought I'd do an experiment where I took an old v4 hair that I converted up to G8 which unfortunately has some very obvious flat planes, add some strands to it, and as a third itesm add a geometry shell.  I found when I was experimenting with converting older hairs to dForce that they got whispy so addint a geometry shell with a negative offset would fill in the gaps a bit (if you give the geometry shell the same texture as the hair, of course).

    Here are the results.  Pic 1 is original, pic 2 is with strands, pic 3 is with strands and geo-shell.  A couple of observations:

    1. I painted onto the hair, not the skull cap because of the hairband and I wanted to follow those curves.  So basically just the base of the bangs and the roots of the where the side / back leave the scalp
    2. I used the comb to start it in the right directions and then used the surface attract curves to pull the hair down onto the geometry of the original hair.  I was helped by the fact that I started with the hair, not the skullcap.  It took the shape of the hair pretty easily this way.
    3. Tweaked with the comb and all that.

    The strands make the top and sides a little less flat looking but are too messy.  The geomety shell made a difference filling some larger gaps in the original model I think.  It still isn't fooling anyone but I think it's better and not half bad looking for a V4 hair, especially since I didn't spend much time at all on it.   Cool idea.

    EDIT: I just figured out that at least the last render (maybe all three) have the denoiser activated and that makes hair look a little painterly unless you run it a long time, which i didn't. So some of the detail is missing from the hair.  But you hopefully get the idea.

     

    That's really well done-I had heard of the geoshell trick, but never realized we were supposed to use a negative offset on it.

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