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Serious question about men's clothing

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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,045
    mwokee said:
    Oso... you mean I can buy a business blouse and skirt with black heels for males? I'm still looking for a business suit that doesn't render like a plastic tarp.

    You said:

    'It's my impression the problem is partly negative reinfircenent. There truly is a lot of poor quality male clothing because the artists don't put the effort into it. They put out crap that no one is going to buy then they say "See? Male stuff doesn't sell as well as female items!" If you're going to make male items then give them the same level of quality as female. '

    My point is that there are a number of cases where PAs have created essentially the same content, male and female, and the male sales are a fraction of female sales.

    They are about as close to a sample case of quality not being a variable.

  • mwokeemwokee Posts: 1,275
    Isn't that the point? Put out a plastic tarp and call it a business suit that no one is going to buy then say male items don't sell?
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,045

    In the examples I'm talking about, then why did people actually buy the female versions of the same outfits in greater numbers? I mean, if they are shoddy...

     

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,025
    edited February 2020

    I'll chime in briefly here :) 

    Besides the fact that sales for men's clothing are far less than female clothing, you also run the risk of getting very negative feedback in the forums because it didn't look like users had in mind for that design. That happens a lot less with female outfits. So really not a big incentive on doing male outfits there.

    I am lucky in that doing commissions I don't run the risk of low returns so I can do a lot of male outfits, and is confident enough in my skills to not let it bother me when users let fly with how much they hate the outfits. Others are not quite that thick skinned - a bit of encouragement can go a long way there :)

    Going away from business suits - I can run a comparison on popularity on something that's identical between female and male - Morningstar wings. While I don't have the figures on how much more there is definitely a big gap between the 2. Same with Bounty Huntsman and Bounty Huntress. If you go to my store and sort by popularity you can see by how much.

    Collars and lapels are hard to model and even harder to model so that they simulate in dforce without explosions. Sometimes the design is dictated by rigging and constraints you run into.

    There's not a log of baggy pants for men, but neither are there a lot of baggy pants for females. Its hard to rig loose fitting clothing, male or female.

    My 2 cents :)

    Post edited by Mada on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    Mada said:

    I'll chime in briefly here :) 

    Besides the fact that sales for men's clothing are far less than female clothing, you also run the risk of getting very negative feedback in the forums because it didn't look like users had in mind for that design. That happens a lot less with female outfits. So really not a big incentive on doing male outfits there.

    I am lucky in that doing commissions I don't run the risk of low returns so I can do a lot of male outfits, and is confident enough in my skills to not let it bother me when users let fly with how much they hate the outfits. Others are not quite that thick skinned - a bit of encouragement can go a long way there :)

    Going away from business suits - I can run a comparison on popularity on something that's identical between female and male - Morningstar wings. While I don't have the figures on how much more there is definitely a big gap between the 2. Same with Bounty Huntsman and Bounty Huntress. If you go to my store and sort by popularity you can see by how much.

    Collars and lapels are hard to model and even harder to model so that they simulate in dforce without explosions. Sometimes the design is dictated by rigging and constraints you run into.

    There's not a log of baggy pants for men, but neither are there a lot of baggy pants for females. Its hard to rig loose fitting clothing, male or female.

    My 2 cents :)

    I can tell you that I own Bounty Huntsman, but not Bounty Huntress (but it is on my wishlist for the belt). I must be an exception, though. I love your stuff, btw! It stands out so much to me when I think of ridgid nodes and things not bending and moving when they aren't supposed to. I'm in the niche that prefers medieval, medieval fantasy, and sci fi, so if you were to do more of that sort of thing for the boys, I'd definitely be buying! 

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,365

    Part of putting your creative work up for sale is that people are going to have an opinion about it. I've shown my traditonal art at shows for sale and heard both positive and negative criticism. Some things were just a matter of taste, some were pointing out valid technical downfalls that have helped me improve.

  • Phoenix1966Phoenix1966 Posts: 1,714
    edited February 2020

    One of my favorite vendors here was Uzilite. Their catalog is evenly divided between menswear and women's items, so that vendor seemed to feel that making men's clothing was not like throwing pearls before swine. And the suits were so well done. I miss consistent quality like that for the men.

    I make characters and not clothing, so I cannot speak to the difficulty that might (or might not) be faced in clothing creation; frankly, it would be presumptuous of me to do so. But, as a customer, I can say that there appears to be little interest in addressing very real errors that get discovered with menswear. I say this as someone who has filed many support tickets and have some that are now over a year old and still waiting to be addressed. Is it any wonder that some customers get frustrated and voice their concerns?

    Post edited by Phoenix1966 on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    Phoenix1966 said:

    One of my favorite vendors here was Uzilite. Their catalog is evenly divided between menswear and women's items, so that vendor seemed to feel that making men's clothing was not like throwing pearls before swine. And the suits were so well done. I miss consistent quality like that for the men.

    I make characters and not clothing, so I cannot speak to the difficulty that might (or might not) be faced in clothing creation; frankly, it would be presumptuous of me to do so. But, as a customer, I can say that there appears to be little interest in addressing very real errors that get discovered with menswear. I say this as someone who has filed many support tickets and have some that are now over a year old and still waiting to be addressed. Is it any wonder that some customers get frustrated and voice their concerns?

    It is funny, I was just looking at Gum Road looking at Uzilite's current products.  I should convert the garments to M8....  the collars are very nice but they look intricate to make....

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320

    I own the Morningstar Wings for the G8M and they work fine on G8F. I autofit sometimes male clothing on females but I haven't tried that the other way around as I figured the mesh on the breast area probably would make problems. Serene Night does it quite often in her art thread though and when it not a tarty sort of outfit I usually can't tell it was originally made for a female.

  • AsariAsari Posts: 703
    Mada said:

    I'll chime in briefly here :) 

    Besides the fact that sales for men's clothing are far less than female clothing, you also run the risk of getting very negative feedback in the forums because it didn't look like users had in mind for that design. That happens a lot less with female outfits. So really not a big incentive on doing male outfits there.

    I am lucky in that doing commissions I don't run the risk of low returns so I can do a lot of male outfits, and is confident enough in my skills to not let it bother me when users let fly with how much they hate the outfits. Others are not quite that thick skinned - a bit of encouragement can go a long way there :)

    Going away from business suits - I can run a comparison on popularity on something that's identical between female and male - Morningstar wings. While I don't have the figures on how much more there is definitely a big gap between the 2. Same with Bounty Huntsman and Bounty Huntress. If you go to my store and sort by popularity you can see by how much.

    Collars and lapels are hard to model and even harder to model so that they simulate in dforce without explosions. Sometimes the design is dictated by rigging and constraints you run into.

    There's not a log of baggy pants for men, but neither are there a lot of baggy pants for females. Its hard to rig loose fitting clothing, male or female.

    My 2 cents :)

    Like Melissa, I do also enjoy medieval and fantasy. I totally appreciate your sets and that you still produce them despite the higher risk.
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    edited February 2020

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    edited February 2020
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    gumroad.jpeg
    1600 x 1131 - 337K
    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    edited February 2020
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • zombietaggerungzombietaggerung Posts: 3,759

    @melissastjames Since you asked I can link to it: https://gumroad.com/uzilite?recommended_by=search

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    zombietaggerung said:

    @melissastjames Since you asked I can link to it: https://gumroad.com/uzilite?recommended_by=search

    I realize I have to get that Cosmonaut!

  • sunnyjeisunnyjei Posts: 502
    nemesis10 said:

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder.... 

    That sadly makes sense. It seems like it would be in Daz's best interest to promote having a diverse as possible store so I'm kind of surprised (not sure if things are happening behind the scenes) that they don't comission artists to make more things for males or say different genres that don't get as much attention so that artists get paid AND consumers get more of the stuff they want in the Daz store. Curious too if something like that has ever been done here- I know a lot of illustrators, digital artists do kickstarters and have patreons to support them to create something. If the makers of the fantastic skin builder or male clothing artists did a kickstarter or Patreon it would definitely be something I would be interested in supporting. Not sure how it would work but hopefully there is some creative solution out there- and thanks for the links and names- I just wishlisted a bunch a got a lot of great deals on some :)

  • AlmightyQUESTAlmightyQUEST Posts: 2,005
    edited February 2020
    Problem is the name is Uzilite not Utilize, with the right name you find their stuff right away. They also have plenty of stuff in the store here under the same name. But not a lot for the past few generations for either male or female figures. But they are another example where the male and female outfits are of similar quality. There is a reason so few women's outfits have collars, and many that do only come unbuttoned and loose.

    https://www.daz3d.com/uzilite still some of my favorite men's clothing across all DAZ models.
    Post edited by AlmightyQUEST on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    AlmightyQUEST said:
    Problem is the name is Uzilite not Utilize, with the right name you find their stuff right away. They also have plenty of stuff in the store here under the same name. But not a lot for the past few generations for either male or female figures. But they are another example where the male and female outfits are of similar quality. There is a reason so few women's outfits have collars, and many that do only come unbuttoned and loose.

    Thanks

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    edited February 2020
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    teeshirtguy.jpeg
    1705 x 1156 - 676K
    Post edited by nemesis10 on
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    That conversion is definitely not acceptable to me...pants or shirt. dForce would likely help the shirt...not sure about the pants...there's some odd bulging going on in the nether partses. I'm of the level of anal retentive that I won't use stuff if I can't get it to look like clothing...I'd imagine mostly because I try to aim for as realistic as possible. I've been able to salvage some nice dresses from G2 to G8 with dForce...haven't tried loose-fitting pants yet. And in the case of the dresses, autofit did a better job than RSSY's converter (with the intention of relying on dForce). The Arthurian dress came out particularly gorgeous...which does us no good in this conversation since we're talking about menses. :P

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    That conversion is definitely not acceptable to me...pants or shirt. dForce would likely help the shirt...not sure about the pants...there's some odd bulging going on in the nether partses. I'm of the level of anal retentive that I won't use stuff if I can't get it to look like clothing...I'd imagine mostly because I try to aim for as realistic as possible. I've been able to salvage some nice dresses from G2 to G8 with dForce...haven't tried loose-fitting pants yet. And in the case of the dresses, autofit did a better job than RSSY's converter (with the intention of relying on dForce). The Arthurian dress came out particularly gorgeous...which does us no good in this conversation since we're talking about menses. :P

    The bulge is a morph so it can be dialed out (it is at 100%); I did no Dforcesince it was a very quick conversion... you should look at the ads to see what the garments look like.  It does point out that you can model things in or Dforce them out but the techniques are at odds with eachother...

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    That conversion is definitely not acceptable to me...pants or shirt. dForce would likely help the shirt...not sure about the pants...there's some odd bulging going on in the nether partses. I'm of the level of anal retentive that I won't use stuff if I can't get it to look like clothing...I'd imagine mostly because I try to aim for as realistic as possible. I've been able to salvage some nice dresses from G2 to G8 with dForce...haven't tried loose-fitting pants yet. And in the case of the dresses, autofit did a better job than RSSY's converter (with the intention of relying on dForce). The Arthurian dress came out particularly gorgeous...which does us no good in this conversation since we're talking about menses. :P

    The bulge is a morph so it can be dialed out (it is at 100%); I did no Dforcesince it was a very quick conversion... you should look at the ads to see what the garments look like.  It does point out that you can model things in or Dforce them out but the techniques are at odds with eachother...

    Yeah, I'll never understand the bulges, lol. I must admit that I'm not, err, equipped to understand... but I can't say I've ever seen a guy walking around in public with a saran wrap outline of Da Stuffs, lol. I mean, not like David Bowie in Labyrinth, which was...yeah, haha. I used to build scenes with anatomically correct models and then I just got too annoyed with having to fit them *in* the pants...so I said screw it and don't even bother. Ken dolls FTW! Maybe pants made for older generations need the help, but it seems that most of the ones I've purchased don't. 

    One thing I will say, is I don't think I've ever seen a pair of pants convert from an older generation to a new one, male or female, and look good both front and back. The back is usually worse off than the front. (Actually, wait...Smay's Stalker Pants for Genesis convert nicely.)

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • nemesis10nemesis10 Posts: 3,500
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    That conversion is definitely not acceptable to me...pants or shirt. dForce would likely help the shirt...not sure about the pants...there's some odd bulging going on in the nether partses. I'm of the level of anal retentive that I won't use stuff if I can't get it to look like clothing...I'd imagine mostly because I try to aim for as realistic as possible. I've been able to salvage some nice dresses from G2 to G8 with dForce...haven't tried loose-fitting pants yet. And in the case of the dresses, autofit did a better job than RSSY's converter (with the intention of relying on dForce). The Arthurian dress came out particularly gorgeous...which does us no good in this conversation since we're talking about menses. :P

    The bulge is a morph so it can be dialed out (it is at 100%); I did no Dforcesince it was a very quick conversion... you should look at the ads to see what the garments look like.  It does point out that you can model things in or Dforce them out but the techniques are at odds with eachother...

    Yeah, I'll never understand the bulges, lol. I must admit that I'm not, err, equipped to understand... but I can't say I've ever seen a guy walking around in public with a saran wrap outline of Da Stuffs, lol. I mean, not like David Bowie in Labyrinth, which was...yeah, haha. I used to build scenes with anatomically correct models and then I just got too annoyed with having to fit them *in* the pants...so I said screw it and don't even bother. Ken dolls FTW! Maybe pants made for older generations need the help, but it seems that most of the ones I've purchased don't. 

    One thing I will say, is I don't think I've ever seen a pair of pants convert from an older generation to a new one, male or female, and look good both front and back. The back is usually worse off than the front. (Actually, wait...Smay's Stalker Pants for Genesis convert nicely.)

    That is a another wrinkle to all of this.... I have lived in coastal California towns all my life so i associate clothing that isn't anatomically "correct" to be either suits, "old guy" clothes, workwear,  and spacesuits...  I have generally been around colleges where guys have learned that even jeans can have a bit of spandex, athletic clothes cling, and healthy people wear clothes with a bit of cling....  I gather there are  places where the weather is less predictable don't and speedos are rare.  I remember the costuming in Labyrinth but i had seen enough ballet, shakespearian stuff with codpieces not to mention hippies with skin tight jeans that it didn't really register.

  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited February 2020
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:
    melissastjames said:
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    That's nice but you've mentioned "Utilize" twice now with no mention on how to find their stuff. Trying to find anything on Gum Road is pretty much the definition of the word "futility". 

    I just go to Gumroad and search for Daz Studio and find a plethora of stuff? But, yes, i avoid putting direct links to other stores because it is rude.

    Yes, I typed in "daz" and found a few things, but not really any clothing sets specifically. I was able to locate "Utilize" but there was only one male set? Unfortunately with the way the site is set up, there is no way to filter the results in any way that is useful. 

    In terms of a nice, rigid shirt collar...the perfect example that comes to mind for me is Linday's Satine Detective set. It is made for G3F, but shows that it's clearly possible to do...thus the problem again comes around to nobody (generalized "nobody") wanting to put time/effort into men's clothing. (But again, personally I'm only interested in medieval fantasy and sci-fi...so three-piece suits don't really matter so much to me.)

    My suggestion is that you search for "daz studio" rather than "daz" which is a more general string but, yes, they don't have a very intricate search mechanism.... The problem with the collar thing is less that nobody wants to put in time/effort into men's clothes, it is that nobody can afford to put time/effort into men's clothes.  A suprisingly large percentage of the customers don't even have any male characters in their libraries.  Moreover, men's clothes tend to be a weird combination of boring and complicated.  An artist who makes women' s clothes can churn out loads of skimpy outfits with v-necks to pay the bills and be able to afford the complicated time consuming financial failure.  If you make  well-made men's clothes, it is an enormous gamble and probably won't pay the bills.  I have chatted with a few of the artist who have made the best men's products and realize how often people say they want something but never follow through with the purchase.  I think we can only fault ourselves that Stonemason didn't continue making male clothes or that we don't get a male Skinbuilder....  

    I realize I'm in the vast minority, but skimp-wear can show up every day and the only result for me is less $$$ out of my pocket because I won't buy it. Personally, I don't use SkinBuilder, but I see what you're saying...it just doesn't pay to make stuff for males...and that's sad...just like non-skimpy stuff for females likely doesn't sell as well either...which is equally sad. 

    There is one truism that the moderators of the forums repeat which is that what people request in the forums is not representative of what the whole customer base wants.  I wouldn't be amazed if the default customer has one Viktoria and a huge library of swimsuits and underwear...  I should mention that if you look at the Daz3d vendor, StreetWear, that is really Stonemason.

    Good to know...I own the Rogue Sci-Fi Suit...though I didn't start in on this stuff til G3/G8. Sadly, it doesn't convert all that hotly with the converter tools (really nothing for G2 to G8 does)...so I have to rely on autofit for it with SY's clones. 

    In terms of underwear and swimsuits...I think I might have one set that I bought on purpose rather than got as part of a bundle, lol. 

    I quickly dragged out Roy for Genesis 8 male, added the Streetwear, converted it to iray, and rendered:

    That conversion is definitely not acceptable to me...pants or shirt. dForce would likely help the shirt...not sure about the pants...there's some odd bulging going on in the nether partses. I'm of the level of anal retentive that I won't use stuff if I can't get it to look like clothing...I'd imagine mostly because I try to aim for as realistic as possible. I've been able to salvage some nice dresses from G2 to G8 with dForce...haven't tried loose-fitting pants yet. And in the case of the dresses, autofit did a better job than RSSY's converter (with the intention of relying on dForce). The Arthurian dress came out particularly gorgeous...which does us no good in this conversation since we're talking about menses. :P

    The bulge is a morph so it can be dialed out (it is at 100%); I did no Dforcesince it was a very quick conversion... you should look at the ads to see what the garments look like.  It does point out that you can model things in or Dforce them out but the techniques are at odds with eachother...

    Yeah, I'll never understand the bulges, lol. I must admit that I'm not, err, equipped to understand... but I can't say I've ever seen a guy walking around in public with a saran wrap outline of Da Stuffs, lol. I mean, not like David Bowie in Labyrinth, which was...yeah, haha. I used to build scenes with anatomically correct models and then I just got too annoyed with having to fit them *in* the pants...so I said screw it and don't even bother. Ken dolls FTW! Maybe pants made for older generations need the help, but it seems that most of the ones I've purchased don't. 

    One thing I will say, is I don't think I've ever seen a pair of pants convert from an older generation to a new one, male or female, and look good both front and back. The back is usually worse off than the front. (Actually, wait...Smay's Stalker Pants for Genesis convert nicely.)

    That is a another wrinkle to all of this.... I have lived in coastal California towns all my life so i associate clothing that isn't anatomically "correct" to be either suits, "old guy" clothes, workwear,  and spacesuits...  I have generally been around colleges where guys have learned that even jeans can have a bit of spandex, athletic clothes cling, and healthy people wear clothes with a bit of cling....  I gather there are  places where the weather is less predictable don't and speedos are rare.  I remember the costuming in Labyrinth but i had seen enough ballet, shakespearian stuff with codpieces not to mention hippies with skin tight jeans that it didn't really register.

    Well, coming from a New England perspective, you typically only see twigs and berries on trees. I can't think of one time I've ever seen a package through a pair of pants in person short of when my husband walks around in his undies. 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,320
    nemesis10 said:

    I thought I would drag out the Utilize M701 outfit and refit it to a G8 (it was made for G3) to show people the collar morphed to open. The image was actually to show someone how to use a 3dlight skydome in an iray render:

    fits real

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