Going to build a new computer. Any suggestions on specs?
DarthD
Posts: 259
I'm tired of my slow 5 year old laptop so I'm going to build a new desktop. I want to design it to get the best performance from DAZ. I'd like some recommendations on components. I have no preference between Intel or AMD as I've had good luck with both. The same with Radeon vs Nvida. I've used both and have been happy with each. I'm going to install as much memory as possible.
I just want the fastest renders possible as I would like to start animating.
Will it run noticeably faster with a solid state drive? (Scene loading, saving etc..)
I thought about buying an Alienware PC but I've found I can build one with similar specs for a lot less money.
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Rumors that I hear say that you get currently more bang for your buck with Intel over AMD with similar specs.
The following specs should keep most DAZzers happy;
Quad-core at least. Intel i5 or i7, but watch out. Some i5's are dual-core. Read the specs carefully.
At least 8GB RAM expandable to more; DDR3 high speed
At least 2TB internal fast disk (7200rpm not 5200rpm). 2nd fast internal disk (2TB) for additional storage and/or backup (4TB) and simultaneous buffer activities. If you want really fast you can upgrade to solid state disks (SSD) but they're still small capacity and expensive, and you'd have to juggle storage assignment paths.
At least two USB3 ports
Big enough external disks for accumulated archival storage (USB2 or 3) or complete system active backups (USB3), at least twice storage capacity of system disk.
Big enough power supply: 500w
Good quality modern graphics chip or board. Make sure the machine has an x16 socket for graphics board just in case you're not satisfied with CPU-graphics or on-board graphics chip.
If you're buying your own motherboard don't skimp on board sockets. Preferably pick out your desired external boards (graphic, audio, network, SCSI, extra disk controller, etc. that you might want and make sure the motherboard you buy has enough of the right type slots.
This is all common sense, but I'll let others recommend brands to admire or avoid.
HOWEVER, if you want a super computer I'm sure someone will pop in here and describe one for more than you're willing to spend.
Get as many cores in the CPU as you can afford - this lets DS take advantage of threaded processing during rendering. If you use a standalone renderer (Reality, 3Delight standalone, Octane, Blender's rendering engine, or something else), it also allows for rendering in the renderer and scene-composing in DS at the same time.
I believe Octane requires an NVidia graphics card (or at least an NVidia GPU). Does this make a difference to you?
While some people love putting their content libraries on a network drive (so the content can be accessed by any computer on the home LAN), this limits the speed of accessing the content to the speed of the LAN. If you want every last scrap of speed, be sure to install your content on the composing/rendering machine's local disk ... which means getting a large enough fast disk for your content library. (Luckily, 4TB HDD drives are relatively inexpensive nowadays.) Don't forget to back up your drive regularly, no matter what you install!
Thanks for the responses. I read something a few years ago that said I5 is better for games and I7 is better for video. I don't remember the reason given. I have an old I7 in my laptop. I also have 8GB of memory which is not enough for my larger scenes. I plan on at least doubling it.
I have Reality and Lux Render but I don't use Blender or anything with Octane.
I'm bad about backups. I really need to improve.
An SSD as a Temp Drive will improve render and loading speed.
Your data drives as SSH drives are a good high speed option.
An M.2 boot Drive is a good idea on a new build.
I highly recommend the ASUS Z97 WS boards or, especially, the ASUS X99 WS motherboard. PCIE lanes are an Industry trend and those have more lanes than any other Motherboard on the market in their respective classes.
I highly recommend an NVIDIA card as more and more 3D software is using CUDA, further NVIDIA cards allow you to also use OpenCL (The other graphics card computing solution.) It gives you more options. Any render solution that uses the Graphics card, requires as much video RAM as you can have, I recommend 4GB (Minimum) for that.
Get at least 16GB of RAM.
An i7 is significantly better than an i5 with a CPU render solution as the big distinction between the i7 and the i5 is multi-threading each core. (A Quad Core gives you 8 threads instead of 4.)
I like AMD processors, but the motherboards that support them are not keeping up with the current advances in hardware.
I'm glad to see a recommendation for Asus. I've always had great luck with ASUS. What is an M.2 boot drive
Don't worry, one or more catastrophes usually change your attitude about backups.
I'm not sure how much stuff is still single threaded in DAZ Studio, but keep in mind you'll want a balance between high speed and number of cores. Get as high of speed CPU as you can with as many cores as you can.That way you'll be covered with your single threaded programs for speed and programs like DAZ that have functions and parts like 3Delight that will use all your available cores and benefit from the higher processor speed.
For yours truly - more of an artist than a techie - if I am just to walk into a shop and buy a new laptop - what should I ask for?
I plan to write a requirement specification to bring with me to make sure I get what I want.
Dual core i3s and i5s are often used in budget minded gaming systems since many games aren't programmed to take advantage of multi-threading. Intel's big advantage over AMD for rendering is Intel processors have a floating point math unit for every real core whereas AMD processors have one floating point unit for every two real cores. Since rendering is math intensive the floating point units make a big difference.
Echowing what DAZ_Spooky, stated. Get more then 16GB of RAM. I've already crashed this comp a few tomes, with only 16GB. This motherboard maxes out at 32GB (8GB x 4 slots), and I don't think that would hold me out for very long.
This one was just a tad to much, attempting a 2000x1200 3delight render, at 0.1 shading rate.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/739237/
If I understand correctly, 3Delight uses the processor for rendering so the video card is only used for manipulating the scene? Does Reality use the video card?
A guide to your budget and your technical confidence will enable fullest advice.
I'd build an 8 core (16 thread) X99 based system with custom water-cooling and overclock it fast as possible whilst still having 32 / 64GB of DDR4. If I could afford it and assemble it...
If my Laptop wouldn`t get broken last year I get to buy a top end Alienware Laptop this year, but last year I didn`t have enough Money, so I bought a ASUS G750J (wich is fast enough).
If money doesn`t matter... I suggest to buy a DELL Precision Tower 7910 with 2 Processors, 36 Cores, 1 TByte RAM and a Nvidia Quadro K6000 or AMD FirePro W9100
I would stress RAM and CPU more than anything. I have an i7 4770k @ 4 Ghz and 16 GB of RAM and scenes with 5+ G2X figures dog it down pretty badly. With good lightning and detailed hair, the renders can still take a very long time.
I wish money didn't matter. That $9K Dell looks great! I'm considering this to start with.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9178826&CatId=11498
A guide to your budget and your technical confidence will enable fullest advice.
I'd build an 8 core (16 thread) X99 based system with custom water-cooling and overclock it fast as possible whilst still having 32 / 64GB of DDR4. If I could afford it and assemble it...Overclocking is great for software that does not task your CPU, like most games. However over clocking makes a CPU (and therefore the computer) unstable under high loads, especially high sustained loads, like rendering. While your system is likely to crash before you damage your CPU, that still isn't good for your computer and crashes of this nature can also make Hard Drives unreadable.
For rendering I highly advise against overclocked CPUs and RAM.
For rendering I highly advise against overclocked CPUs and RAM. I'll second that. Yes coll it allot to got more life out of the components that age from heat, I never Overclock, never.
...I have an old ASUS P6T MB in the system I built a couple years ago, been rock solid. Unfortunately this is now legacy hardware as it has 6 memory slots in Tri Channel configuration. Any DDR 3 purchased now will be Dual Channnel mode as the newer MBs have either 4 or 8 memory slots supporting 16 - 64 GB. Quad Channel configuration is only available with the newer DDR4 memory which at the time is rather expensive (it also requires an X99 MB as the memory sticks are 288 pin, DDR3 is 240 pin).
I am currently running with 12 GB DDR3 1333, and sending a fairly detailed render job to Lux via Reality tends to kick up a "high memory usage" warning. I have also pegged memory usage at just under 11GB using the built in 3DL on moderately complex scenes. This hs caused mt to consider upgrading to 24GB (the maximum my board supports) but pickings are getting slim for 24 GB 1333 MHz kits that are compatible with the older X58 chipset.
For the CPU I would go with an i7 as not only are some i5's only duo core but some of the quads also don't have hyperthreading. Also, the i7 has a wider pipeline to the system's memory compared to AMD CPUs, which translates to more instructions that are able to pass back & forth between the two thus reducing the time it takes to execute a task. I would also consider an aftermarket CPU cooler especially if you plan to use the system for gaming a well.
If you are looking to use LuxRender (Luxus or Reality) I would suggest an ATI GPU as Lux makes use of OpenCL. As mentioned, above Octane exclusively uses Nvidia's CUDA graphics language, so depending on which of those you plan to use will dictate which GPU to choose. Newer Nvidia GPUs will support OpenCL but they are more into pushing their proprietary CUDA language so support and driver development for OpenCL is lagging behind.AMD's For Octane, the more VRAM the better as full GPU rendering requires that the entire scene needs to fit in the GPU's memory. If it doesn't, texture performance will suffer in quality. Unfortunately this will add to the cost as GPUs with 4 - 6 GB are not cheap. Setting up Dual GPUs in SLI or Crossfire mode will not work as VRAM does not stack like regular memory.
Lower capacity SSDs (up to 240GB) have come down in price to about what I paid for my 1TB HDD when I purchased it years ago (just checked Newegg and there's a Crucial 256GB SATA III SSD priced at 107$). I have a dual drive setup with a fast 250GB HDD for my boot/application drive and 1TB for my Library/Runtime drive (at the time I built my system, SSDs had just appeared on the market, were very expensive, and there were still questions concerning their R/W service life).
For a PSU I erred on the bigger side (750w.) as this is heart of the system. HAving exta overhed helps in two qays, fit the unit will not be required to run close to maximum output (thus extending it; service life) and second, it gives you "room" for future expansion. I am looking to add an Radeon 7950 with 3GB VRAM so I can use LuxRender's GPU assisted rendering mode, and my PSU still gives me plenty of power to spare.
Lastly don't overlook the importance of a good enclosure. I have a full height case (no flashy interior lights, clear glass panels or "Decepticon" styling) which gives the components inside plenty of "breathing room" as well as making it easier to service. It has 6 fans including a large side fan by the GPU/CPU with filters on the intakes (no exotic liquid cooling or anything like that). Even during "heavy" render jobs, the CPU barely breaks the mid 60s (C) and memory temperatures are pretty insignificant. Being all steel and well insulated, I almost don't notice it is running. Heat is the killer of any system so the more fresh air that can be circulated though the interior and heat vented out, the longer their service life of the components inside.
The bottom line, take the time do your homework to make sure the components you purchase are compatible with each other (especially true with memory and the MB). Don't be afraid to ask questions no matter how basic they may seem. For myself, the extra time spent in research, planning and hitting various tech forums more than paid for itself as for about 1,400$ (with monitor) I ended up with a system dedicated to the purpose of 3D work with no corner cutting, "bloatware", or other "unwanted features" to compromise it's performance. To get the same system from a custom house at the time would have easily cost between 2,500 - 3,000$.
For rendering I highly advise against overclocked CPUs and RAM. I'll second that. Yes coll it allot to got more life out of the components that age from heat, I never Overclock, never.
I view overclocking like putting a jet engine on a balsa wood windup toy plane. Goes like a bat out of hell till the wings come off.
While an AMD/ATI graphics card will do OpenCL all NVIDIA cards since CUDA was introduced (Significantly before OpenCL was introduced) do OpenCL just fine. NVIDIA cards give you more options.
The NVIDIA GT 740 has a 4GB option and is right around $100. (You don't really want to spend less than $100 on a video card anyway.)
The other thing about ATI/AMD video cards is while for an equal price they might be better at OpenCL, they also tend to lose driver support over time. For example when I upgraded my work machine that has AMD cards in it to Windows 8, I had to replace the two ATI cards in there with a new one as one stopped working and the other became unstable. We have multiple computers in the office that are still running GTX 260 cards, and I just retired a laptop that had a Geforce 7300M in it that was happily running Windows 8. (It was just too slow and the monitor was giving out.)
You can set up NVIDIA cards in SLI, but if you are using CUDA it is usually best if you disable SLI before using CUDA. (One right click, 4 left clicks.)
Other reasons for an NVIDIA card. I do know that Open Subdiv can leverage CUDA, though that has not been implemented in DS. For rendering it isn't just Octane, but V-Ray, Mental Ray, Iray (The big three), plus others, all use CUDA. As does Photoshop, Aftereffects, 3DCoat, and possibly Lightwave (They were with CORE, but I don't know if any of that got into Lightwave 10 or 11.)
If you want to expand your ability to use 3D in the future and grow with your capability, then you are probably better off with an NVIDIA card than an AMD card.
Hope you will have a better luck with Asus motherboards, than my son.
He has bought recently Asus Z-97-Deluxe motherboard and 16 GB (2x8 GB) Corsair Vengeance DDR-3 2400 MHz ram.
After he assembled his new computer, there was a problem with boot and the motherboard worked only with 1 ram module
and only with 1333 MHz RAM speed. He returned both the motherboard and the RAM package
and bought Gigabyte Z-97 Gaming 7 motherboard and Crucial Balistix Sport RAM, which works very well
with i7-4790K cpu.
As a fan of Asus motherboards, it was a big surprise for me.
He also bought an Asus graphic card with Nvidia GT970 chip. This card was so heavy, that after mounting
in the case, the right side of it was bended down, so there was a need to tie it to the case, to avoid that bend.
It looks like not all Asus products are as good as before, so read as many reviews as possible, to avoid disappointment.
I view overclocking like putting a jet engine on a balsa wood windup toy plane. Goes like a bat out of hell till the wings come off.
...well said.
I usually am reminded of what Tyrell said to Roy Batty in the film Bladeunner:
Unless one is also looking to run the latest games, there is little need for overclocking.
As to an X99 8 core system, that would be major leap in cost The CPU alone is around 600$ and as I mentioned in my post, DDR4 memory is more expensive (64gb - 8 x 8 GB kits are priced between 1,000$ - 1,500$) So just for the three "basics" (CPU, memory, and MB) you could be looking at an investment of 2,000$ or more. Now add to that cost of the GPU, drives, PSU, a CPU cooler, case with sufficient fans, and R/W DVD, along with a UPS to protect it all.
For myself, that requires a "lotto win".
While an AMD/ATI graphics card will do OpenCL all NVIDIA cards since CUDA was introduced (Significantly before OpenCL was introduced) do OpenCL just fine. NVIDIA cards give you more options.
The NVIDIA GT 740 has a 4GB option and is right around $100. (You don't really want to spend less than $100 on a video card anyway.)
The other thing about ATI/AMD video cards is while for an equal price they might be better at OpenCL, they also tend to lose driver support over time. For example when I upgraded my work machine that has AMD cards in it to Windows 8, I had to replace the two ATI cards in there with a new one as one stopped working and the other became unstable. We have multiple computers in the office that are still running GTX 260 cards, and I just retired a laptop that had a Geforce 7300M in it that was happily running Windows 8. (It was just too slow and the monitor was giving out.)
You can set up NVIDIA cards in SLI, but if you are using CUDA it is usually best if you disable SLI before using CUDA. (One right click, 4 left clicks.)
Other reasons for an NVIDIA card. I do know that Open Subdiv can leverage CUDA, though that has not been implemented in DS. For rendering it isn't just Octane, but V-Ray, Mental Ray, Iray (The big three), plus others, all use CUDA. As does Photoshop, Aftereffects, 3DCoat, and possibly Lightwave (They were with CORE, but I don't know if any of that got into Lightwave 10 or 11.)
If you want to expand your ability to use 3D in the future and grow with your capability, then you are probably better off with an NVIDIA card than an AMD card.
...depending on one's budget though (and I am speaking from the low end of the scale if cost is a major concern) many of those render engines are very expensive (and not all have bridges or plugins to work with Daz Studio) whereas Luxender is free and Luxus/Reality are much more affordable in comparison (19.95$ & 29.95$ respectively).
As to 4GB Nvidia GPUs currently on the market I'm seeing prices between 260$ to 600$. That 100$ one (119$ at Newegg) is an older generation model with only 128 bit memory and 384 CUDA cores (the latter which would determine the card's rendering speed) most of the current generation units have 256 or 512 bit VRAM and 1,600 - 2,048 CUDA cores. As to memory size if you are contemplating full GPU rendering of large scenes that use large highly detailed texture maps (such as I tend to create), even 4GB may not be sufficient to get the level of detail desired. The only advantage to using multiple GPUs would be the for the extra CUDA cores or Stream Processors for rendering speed, as again, VRAM does not stack.
For me the jury is still out on whether AMD will become a dead end. I am sure the developers are aware of the need for updating drivers if they intend to remain competitive with Nvidia. I have also been hearing from other camps that OpenCL will be the future for graphics as it is not proprietary to any one brand.
...LuxRender actually has two modes, GPU assisted rendering which uses both the GPU and CPU, and pure GPU rendering that only uses the GPU. Assisted rendering is faster than straight CPU rendering and full GPU rendering is still faster, but as I mentioned, it requires a lot of VRAM.
For the specs you are quoting you are talking in the $400-$600 range, which is where the GTX 970 and 980 live.
Autodesk is all in on CUDA, and Lightwave has been moving in that direction. Adobe went CUDA in 2013, though Apple bullied them so they do have some OpenCL support as a fallback.
...I guess I'm fortunate that the Radeon HD7950 I have was free (a friend who upgraded his gaming rig to the latest ATI GPUs actually gave me two 7950s with all the drivers). My original GPU was an Nvidia Fermi 460 (1GB GDDR5).
As I will most likely never work with products from the likes of Autodesk, Adobe, Newtek or Otoy (unless I win a big fat lotto jackpot) I am pretty content to stay with what I have since LuxRender uses OpenCL for its GPU rendering.
Again I just offer my comments for those who may be extremely budget minded like myelf.
Adobe Photoshop is a decent price on steam now. I'll never go to it but a lot are cause you just pay monthly for it.