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No shadows in Iray or 3Delight, DS 4.9

zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95
in Daz Studio Discussion

Since starting to work with Daz Studio a couple of months ago, I have been unable to get shadows working in either renderer, in any scene, with any figures or objects. In Iray, the shadows options are 'italicised' out, while in 3Delight I have turned shadows on but they still do not appear in the render. Having used Poser as a hobbyist for many years, I am baffled as to why such a simple thing appears so difficult in Daz Studio. Don't get me wrong, I love DS 4.9, which is why I am finding this so frustrating. I have tried following various tutorial videos but they seem to largely be out of date and feature settings I don't have.

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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    In Iray the shadow settingsa re hidden  -you are seeing them italicised as you have the option to Show hidden properties on in the pane's option menu (the lined button in the top corner, or right-click the tab). Iray lights always cast shadows (in Photoreal mode - it is possible to select Interactive as the render mode, but that disables several features and isn't the default).

    3Delight doesn't usually have an On/Off setting - it is None, Depth mapped or Ray-traced (of which,generally, you want to use None or rat-traced - Depth-mapped shadows can easily produce artefacts). Which option are you picking, and are you leaving other lights not set to cast shadows?

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    I have been using Iray in photoreal mode and ray-traced shadows in 3Delight. Other lights are set to no shadows. I am sure it is something stupid that I have done but for the life of me I can't work out what.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    If you are lacking shadows in Iray it's probably that the default HDRI dome is washing them out. If you have other, non-shadow casting, lights in 3Delight that may be the same issue. Try switching to Scene only for Environment mode in Iray Render Settings, try using one light at a time to test their effect in 3Delight.

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    Thanks for your help Richard, that has solved my problem, although I have to say that I had tried switching to scene only before. The difference this time is that before I tried anything else, I went back to default settings all round, so obviously something I had changed had caused the problem in the first place, I just wish I knew what it was! The two images show before and after switching to scene only with a single distant light.

    G2 shadows test.jpg
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    G2 shadows test 2.jpg
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  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    It seems I spoke too soon - spot lights still seem not to cast shadows. I presume they are meant to?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    Yes, a spot should cast shadows in Iray, or in 3delight if set to do so. Where is the spotlight and where is it pointing?

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    The spot light is above and to the right. Clearly, she is casting shadows on herself but not on the ground.

    G2 shadows test 3 spot light.jpg
    855 x 1248 - 63K
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    And there's a ground there, extending far enough to catch the light? The default Iray settings catch shadows without ground geometry, but 3delight doesn't - by the evenness of the background I don't think you have anything there.

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    The scene is exactly the same as in the two shots above with shadows and these are Iray renders.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    OK, sorry - so that's an Iray render with just the one light? Could you post the scene file (the .duf), with a note of the content used.

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,777
    edited July 2016

    When I do an Iray render using Scene Only environment mode, I do not get ground shadows unless I add geometry for the ground. Try creating a primitive plane (Create>New Primitive...>Plane) beneath her feet and see if the shadows show up. I don't know why the Render Settings for Scene Only have controls for Draw Ground and Ground Shadow Intensity. They do nothing for me in Scene Only mode. In Dome and Scene mode, the Draw Ground and Ground Shadow Intensity work fine. Even with Dray Dome Off, I can still get ground shadows without adding geometry for a ground (but only from the dome, not the spotlight???).

    Edit: Hmmm. There is something confusing going on here. When I render with Dome and Scene, I do get ground shadows without a geometry ground, but ONLY from the dome lighting. The spotlight does not make a shadow on the "ground". Even in Dome and Scene, I get spotlight shadows ONLY if I had a geometry ground (the plane). I guess scene lighting (spotlight) won't light or make shadows on the "dome" and "ground".

    Post edited by barbult on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,777
    edited July 2016

    Here is the result of my Iray experiment:

    Note: If I use a white default plane as created by Create>New Primitive...>Plane, the bright dome lighting on the white reflective surface almost washes out the shadow from the spotlight on the plane in Dome and Scene. So I made the plane gray and removed reflectivity to avoid confusing reflections with shadows. Richard mentioned the potential washout issue above.

    Dome and Scene - Dome lighting makes shadow on both the geometry (plane) and the virtual dome ground. Spotlight makes shadow only on the geometry (plane).

    Scene Only - No shadow from dome lighting, because there is no dome lighting in Scene Only. Spotlight makes shadow only on the geometry (plane).  If there were no geometry for the ground (no plane) in my scene, there would be no ground shadow at all.

    Well, I learned some things here.

     

    Dome and Scene Spotlight.jpg
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    Scene Only Spotlight.jpg
    1980 x 1309 - 576K
    Post edited by barbult on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    Ah, thank you - that was a wrinkle I had missed since I usually have a floor anyway, to bounce some light back up.

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    I think I follow what Barbult said...but my confusion is still around the fact that a distant light casts a shadow onto the virtual ground, yet the spot doesn't.

    The scene contains default G2 Female, Basics Wear top and shorts and Cat's Meow hair, and now has a spot, distant and point light(s).

    duf
    duf
    G2 shadows test.duf
    90K
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,777
    edited July 2016
    zidra.loden_b650c6964b said:

    I think I follow what Barbult said...but my confusion is still around the fact that a distant light casts a shadow onto the virtual ground, yet the spot doesn't.

    The scene contains default G2 Female, Basics Wear top and shorts and Cat's Meow hair, and now has a spot, distant and point light(s).

    You are right. That is very confusing. I tried your scene and I tried my scene with a distant light added. The results are exactly as you describe it. I think you should submit a help request to technical support and see if they have an explanation or whether you have found a bug.

    Edit: And another confusing thing for me is why the distant light shadow on the plane is so faint it is almost invisible, but on the "ground" it is very dark.

    Scene Only Spotlight and Distant Light.jpg
    1980 x 1309 - 610K
    Post edited by barbult on
  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    Thanks very much for looking into this @barbult. I'm not quite sure how I might go about wording a tech support request, but I'll try.

     

  • shioshioshioshio Posts: 0

    @barbult. thank you!!!

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited July 2016
    zidra.loden_b650c6964b said:

    I think I follow what Barbult said...but my confusion is still around the fact that a distant light casts a shadow onto the virtual ground, yet the spot doesn't.

    Your confusion is totally understandable.

    Spotlight does not do "shadow catching", unlike the default "Sun" that is distant light. as barbult has mentioned...

    When the default spotlight is loaded into a typical iRay scene,  the shadow is OFF by default. (INDEPENDENT of Dome & Scene/ Scene or Draw Ground, or Interactive vs Photoreal)

    So the typical step with spotlight is go to Parameters> Light, to Shadow Type, turn it on (choose raytrace or shadow map)

           EDITED: Shadow Type should be available for tweaking by default on default spotlight; if it's not then click option on upper right Parameter pane, turn on Show Hidden Properties

    then go down further to Luminous Flux/ Lumen, 1500 to 1,000,000. Now you can really see the shadow on a GEOMETRY floor.

    Yes one million onwards it begins to feels like a spotlight, and the "Intensity" setting would begin to have some multiplying impact. 

    Play around with light range and spread angle and light geometry.

    Save your own spotlight presets.

    No idea why it is implemented like this. But it allows some rendering fakery art in an unbiased system which is not a bad thing.

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,777
    Mythmaker said:
    zidra.loden_b650c6964b said:

    I think I follow what Barbult said...but my confusion is still around the fact that a distant light casts a shadow onto the virtual ground, yet the spot doesn't.

    Your confusion is totally understandable.

    Spotlight does not do "shadow catching", unlike the default "Sun" that is distant light. as barbult has mentioned...

    When the default spotlight is loaded into a typical iRay scene,  the shadow is OFF by default. (INDEPENDENT of Dome & Scene/ Scene or Draw Ground, or Interactive vs Photoreal)

    So the typical step with spotlight is go to Parameters> Light, to Shadow Type, turn it on (choose raytrace or shadow map)

    then go down further to Luminous Flux/ Lumen, crank it up from 1500 to 1,000,000. Now you can really see the shadow on a GEOMETRY floor.

    Yes one million onwards it begins to feels like a spotlight, and the "Intensity" setting would begin to have some multiplying impact. 

    Play around with light range and spread angle and light geometry.

    Save your own spotlight presets.

    No idea why it is implemented like this. But it allows some rendering fakery art in an unbiased system which is not a bad thing.

    These statements are even more confusing. The shadow type (raytrace or shadow map) control is for 3Delight lights I believe, not Iray Photometric lights. The current DS version does not even show that control in the interface when the render engine is Iray. Or are you turning on Show Hidden Properties to access the those items? Just to see what would happen, I tried turning on Show Hidden Properties to experiment with shadow type. It didn't work as you described for me, and I don't it is intended to work that way.

    Are you running an old version of Daz Studio, before the lighting controls were updated? Early DS versions that included Iray had separate lights for 3Delight and Iray. Later DS versions consolidated the lights and presented only the controls appropriate for the render engine in use.

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited July 2016
    barbult said:

    These statements are even more confusing. The shadow type (raytrace or shadow map) control is for 3Delight lights I believe, not Iray Photometric lights. The current DS version does not even show that control in the interface when the render engine is Iray. Or are you turning on Show Hidden Properties to access the those items? Just to see what would happen, I tried turning on Show Hidden Properties to experiment with shadow type. It didn't work as you described for me, and I don't it is intended to work that way.

    Are you running an old version of Daz Studio, before the lighting controls were updated? Early DS versions that included Iray had separate lights for 3Delight and Iray. Later DS versions consolidated the lights and presented only the controls appropriate for the render engine in use.

     

    I'm running 4.9.2.70 as stated in my sig file... 

    The spotlight I'm referring to = the plain default DS spotlight under menu Create New Spotlight.

    And nope, Shadow Type raytrace or shadow map are showing in total iRay condition. No 3Delight involved, I promise. 

    IRay render setting Dome & Scene. IRay interactive viewport Draw. IRay shader on both floor geom and main scene object. Very iRay.

    Yes, if Show hidden properties is on (recommended) then yes, Shadow Type will show. 

    But nope, Photometric setting will show up even with show hidden properties not turned on, in my case it's true. 

    I'm not sure why turning on shadow type and Photometric at 1000000++ didn't work out for your default spotlight.  

    I've no idea if 'shadow type' being 'hidden property' means my suggested path is not legit. But yes this could be a dev oversight indeed. Maybe they forgot to unhide this crucial function.

     

    In any case my purpose is to guide OP on how to get expected shadow behavior to show with default spotlight in an iray render scene. That's all.

    I hope you'll find explanation for your spotlight. It could be your unique render settings environment? Or DS version?

     

    Good luck

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    The Shadow Type is hidden when Iray Photoreal is the render engine as it does nothing - it is not a good diea to turn hidden properties on in general use as it can lead to confusion, with proeprties thata re currently ineffective showing in the interface.

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited July 2016
    Richard Haseltine said:

    The Shadow Type is hidden when Iray Photoreal is the render engine as it does nothing -

    Odd. As, in my case - the Shadow Type is not hidden when Iray Interactive is the render engine mode. And the default spotlight does its thing indeed!

     

    In this pic, the Show Hidden Properties is not even on. Self-evident, as the Parameter pane> Light setting>(Shadow Type or Lumen) dials are not greyed out.

     

    (further note on previous response: Photometric > Lumen is also available by default, as shown below, no need for Show Hidden Properties!)

     

    It's just a typical scene with 2 DS primitives.

    My process, as mentioned 2 posts ago, is really straight forward and uncomplicated: 

    On iRay render settings, load spotlight, turn on Shadow Type, crank Photometric Lumen above 1000000. That's it.

    Shadow will show on a geometry floor plane. 

    So it turns out, Show Hidden Properties wasn't hiding the all-important Spotlight > Shadow Type.

    I've no idea why iRay Render Interactive mode Shadow Type is not available in your case.

    Let me know if you require any more diagnostics!

     

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • FishtalesFishtales Posts: 6,162

    Mythmaker

    You are getting a shadow because you are using a plane to catch it. The problem being discussed is that there is no shadow from a Spotlight on the Dome Ground. I have tested this using the hidden Shadow option and there is still no shadow, there is shadow when I put in geometry, a set or a plane primitive, and it is still there when turning the hidden Shadow option off. Changing the settings in the shadow option also does nothing to the shadow but it does change when I use the Ground Shadow Intensity option for the Dome Ground. Delete the Plane from your scene and try another render.

  • TottallouTottallou Posts: 555

    You appear to get the shadow control in iray when you have your view port set to interactive mode - If on photoreal it is not there so everyone is right :)

     

     

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,443

    Yes, that is why I specified Photoreal - Interactive does enable the control of shadows, though at rather a high cost in that it disables some other features (such as emissive surfaces).

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited July 2016

    Richard - I totally missed the photoreal mode bit. My bad. Indeed, default spolight photoreal render mode - even with the a proper iRay shadow catcher, even with shadow type turned on, will not show shadow on HDRI draw ground.

    Fishtales - I see now, you guys are seeking spotlight shadow catcher in iRay Photoreal mode for the virtual a.k.a. Dome ground a.k.a Draw Ground... 

     

    BUT........wwwwellllll............

    If you guys are fine with using DIY spotlight to cast shadow on the virtual ground in photoreal......

    Good news! It is possible!! smiley I CRACKED IT!!! 

    Or more like, stumbled into during experiments!

    I call it "ground-shadow-casting mesh-spot" for now lol

    Here it is......yeslaugh

    Default Environment. Photoreal. Dome & Scene. Draw Ground on.

    Make a primitive plane. 20 cm 4 sided should suffice. That's your light shape.

    Position it like you would a typical artificial light.

    Surface> Emissive. White. 1,000,000 Luminance. For obviousness, temp 3000K to give it orange glow.

    I prefer to turn two-sided off for optimization. Important: make sure to point the Y axis of this mesh plane towards the focus object. It's the ray cast direction.

    With the meshspot selected, activate an official script under Utilities in your library, Create Advanced iRay Node Properties.

    Parameter > ENABLE IRAY MATTE on the plane. Turn VISIBLE off, then on, then off.

    You should now see your mesh-spotlight casting strong shadow on virtual ground in photoreal!

    Happpyyyy lalala

    meshspot.png
    769 x 489 - 177K
    Post edited by Mythmaker on
  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    Thanks @Mythmaker for your heroic efforts to solve the problem, although the mystery remains as to why this is the case. I fail to see why the default behaviour for one type of light (distant) is to cast shadows while the others (spot and point) don't. Does this really have to be so complicated? I am just a hobbyist, but I derive a great deal of satisfaction from using Daz Studio, and this seems unneccessarily tortuous for someone like me who is not yet adept with the nuances of the program. I am glad that the functionality and control is available under the hood, however a simple shadows on/off button and a unified default behaviour for lights would be very helpful and welcome. Can anyone explain why this is the default behaviour?

  • zidra.lodenzidra.loden Posts: 95

    This has now been reported as a bug by Daz helpdesk.

  • prixatprixat Posts: 1,590

    Iray is still in it's early stages.

    I have some vague, distant memories of a similar thing happening when Maxon first added HDR support to Cinema 4D.

    The algorithms used to calculate shadows for domes and for lights were fundamentally different. I think it took Maxon a couple of versions to work out how to integrate the two algorithms, but still keep them seperate for compositing purposes.

  • MythmakerMythmaker Posts: 606
    edited August 2016
    zidra.loden_b650c6964b said:

    Thanks @Mythmaker for your heroic efforts to solve the problem, although the mystery remains as to why this is the case. I fail to see why the default behaviour for one type of light (distant) is to cast shadows while the others (spot and point) don't.

    Can anyone explain why this is the default behaviour?

     

    LOL not heroic though, I'm curious too, because I'm 1 year late to the iRay party, also good to learn photoreal mode  (I mostly use Interactive mode for animation)... 

    I agree it can be confusing to newcomers. Trust me things was 270 times worse 3 years ago when I got into this CG stuff!

    laugh

    Is this one a bug/oversight or intended? Your guess is as good as mine!

    Clue... the distant light casts shadow yes, but it's sa harsh outline cartoon black shadow. Not usable anyway. 

    Then again, default lights do cast "proper" shadow with virtual ground in Interactive mode! Hmm

     

    So, either...

     

    1. default lights integration with iRay engine is still a work in progress. Or...

    2. the default lights are never meant to cast shadow on virtual ground. The shadow we get for Interactive mode HDR dome virtual ground is probably just a Daz3D dev bonus. Perhaps, Photoreal are to be strictly "physical" and "consistently literal" - with actual geometries in the scene catching shadows. Advanced users have the option of resorting to DIY Mattes. 

     

    If (2) is true, than my discovery of emissive mesh-spot cast shadow on virtual ground in photoreal (in the previous post) is a hack. In which case, I pray the next update won't disable it. I'm already making nice lamps with it (just in case I actually need to use HDR + virtual ground in my renders) 

    I'm betting on {1) though... Things are still being updated and upgraded every 4.8.x.x and 4.9.x.x....

    Even Nvidia is constantly updating their iRay plugins for third party tools including Daz Studio....

    So keey that in perspective...

    I'm just happy I stumbled upon a solution many have been looking for in the last one year apparently... 

     

    This is how my so-called ground-shadow-casting emissive meshspot would look, on a photoreal mode virtual ground, or just plain grey background with Draw Dome off

     

    image

    Post edited by Mythmaker on
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