Shaders vs. Shader Presets

SLoTH_XVX

Can anyone tell me what the actual difference between Shaders and Shader Presets is?

I am cleaning up my folders for Studio and see that there are Shaders in both Shaders folder and Shader Presets folder....why? Can I combine them (prettry sure I can) but want to know what the difference is between the file in each before moving forward.

Richard I think this is a question you can answer with eas for me....just sayin.

sriesch

While I don't know if they can always be identified based on the location they have been put, in theory the presets would just be adjusting the settings for a shader, wheras the shader would actually change from one shader to another.  So you would apply the shader first, then apply the settings to it after that. 

Settings for one shader would not work (completely and correctly) in another since you might be trying to adjust different parameters that didn't exist in the other shader.

SLoTH_XVX

.....I think I am following you.....I think.

Bejaymac

Technically they are all shader presets, they all tell DS which shader definitions file to use to create what you see in the surfaces tab, while at the same time inform the render engine which shader file to use, either pre-compiled like the .sdl file for USS/HSS, or compiled at render time like we get from the Shader Mixer.

sriesch

sriesch said:

While I don't know if they can always be identified based on the location they have been put, in theory the presets would just be adjusting the settings for a shader, wheras the shader would actually change from one shader to another.  So you would apply the shader first, then apply the settings to it after that. 

Settings for one shader would not work (completely and correctly) in another since you might be trying to adjust different parameters that didn't exist in the other shader.

 

sriesch

@Bejaymac, I stand corrected.  I could have sworn the settings for some shaders would not apply the shader, and you had to manually apply the shader first.  I just ran some tests to prove my point... and proved yours.  I have no idea why I thought that, but this is great, it completely eliminates the need to keep the base shader with the presets when categorizing and I had a whole pile of presets that I was unsure what shader they went to, but apparently it totally doesn't even matter.  Although I'm a little unsure why the base shader is even supplied and labeled with comments like "apply first" if it isn't needed.

Kendall Sears

It is an intent vs understanding thing.

Few people understand what shaders actually are, and so few DS "shaders" are actually shaders.  Firstly, the vast majority of "shaders" in DS (and Poser for that matter) are nothing more than map changes.  Even "shaders" that are nominally supposed to be BASE materials, such as metals, are nothing more than a diffuse map, possibly a displacement or bump map, and some reflectivity settings.  Many "Glass" shaders are just lowering the opacity, and possibly adding a reflection map.  So these are more properly "Shader Presets" as they are just changes to parameters on another shader such as DS Default or Uber (Surface/2/Area).  A true "shader" is something like the Uber series, EustaceScrubb's Noir, or the pw Series that are a set of RiSpec codings that completely change the behavior of the surface, not just modify some basic parameters.  LAMH's internal hair settings are all true RiSpec shaders, with the presets set via the pane instead of Content Library icons.

So, if one has categorized their content library correctly, the current "Shader Presets" folder will contain many more icons than the corresponding "Shaders" folder.

Kendall

Richard Haseltine

sriesch said:

@Bejaymac, I stand corrected.  I could have sworn the settings for some shaders would not apply the shader, and you had to manually apply the shader first.  I just ran some tests to prove my point... and proved yours.  I have no idea why I thought that, but this is great, it completely eliminates the need to keep the base shader with the presets when categorizing and I had a whole pile of presets that I was unsure what shader they went to, but apparently it totally doesn't even matter.  Although I'm a little unsure why the base shader is even supplied and labeled with comments like "apply first" if it isn't needed.

The original pw sahders did this - there was a base preset that had to be applied before the various effects presets - but that's back in the days of script-based presets, probably DS2 or possibly even DS 1.

SLoTH_XVX

....sooooo, what we are saying is there is really no logical reason to have a Shaders folder and a Shaders Presets folder, correct? I mean, if they are all 'basically' shader presets what would differentiate them to be in different folders. 

I only ask because if there is a fundamental difference I would like to keep them separate but if there is not I will plan to combine them into one folder and delete the other.

Kendall Sears

In practice, there is little difference between the two.  Probably not enough to justify the effort to keep them categorized.

Kendall

Richard Haseltine

In fact Daz, at least for Daz-owned shaders, did move the presets for applying base shaders into the Shader Presets folder as I recall (mine are mixed as I didn't always unisntall previous versions).

Mythmaker

Kendall Sears said:

It is an intent vs understanding thing.

Few people understand what shaders actually are, and so few DS "shaders" are actually shaders.  Firstly, the vast majority of "shaders" in DS (and Poser for that matter) are nothing more than map changes.  Even "shaders" that are nominally supposed to be BASE materials, such as metals, are nothing more than a diffuse map, possibly a displacement or bump map, and some reflectivity settings.  Many "Glass" shaders are just lowering the opacity, and possibly adding a reflection map.  So these are more properly "Shader Presets" as they are just changes to parameters on another shader such as DS Default or Uber (Surface/2/Area).  A true "shader" is something like the Uber series, EustaceScrubb's Noir, or the pw Series that are a set of RiSpec codings that completely change the behavior of the surface, not just modify some basic parameters.  LAMH's internal hair settings are all true RiSpec shaders, with the presets set via the pane instead of Content Library icons.

So, if one has categorized their content library correctly, the current "Shader Presets" folder will contain many more icons than the corresponding "Shaders" folder.

+10

Not so long ago, I was still spinning eyeballs with shader, shader preset, on top of material preset's relationship to shader preset. Material/Shader to me have always been the same thing outside Daz. Why not just pick one and don't use the other one? But confusing noobs are more fun lol 

Eventually, I sorted them out, by using and studying AoA/ Dimension theory/ Omnifreaker/ Reality, and for iray Mec4D. Definitely learned lots from Carrara and users and later Octane. Daz forum regulars help a lot too, tons of tips from Bejaymac & Rich in my notebook.

Shader vs shader preset, now I know, basically the same thing in DS. (and yes most base shaders now are in the shader presets folder, Daz's own included)

And good to know about PWtoon base application is not required.  

Shader definition files, now that I've made a few experimental ones, which I reckon by Daz convention should have been called BASE shaders anyway?

It seems, all users need to know are 2 classes: BASE shader, and shader PRESETS. 

There should be one Shader folder in the library, split to 3DL and iRay, then further split into perhaps Product/Vendor name folders.

IMO...

 

added: yes, those products which simply adds texture maps should be labelled Texture sets. To me changing some shader preset settings on existing base shaders should not be qualify the product as "shaders" nor shader presets. At best material presets. 

Material preset products should be clearer about of the uniqueness of their shader base. Ideally top base shaders are used by material preset vendors like merchant resource and be labelled and marketed as such.

SpottedKitty

FWIW, since I install manually and never bothered with Smart Content or the content database, I don't split my content into "Shaders" and "Shader Presets"; I use "Shaders 3Delight" and "Shaders Iray". Leaving all my shader stuff the way they originally installed got too confusing.