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No Nude allowed...but Gore is OK??

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  • RawArtRawArt Posts: 5,945
    edited December 1969

    KickAir 8P said:

    And its great that RawArt's changed his sigline graphic so gory severed limbs aren't scattered through a bunch of other threads (thanks RawArt!). But currently everybody still has to browse by his violently and bloodily TOS-violating promo pic every time they visit the store. There's already a couple of non-violating (or at least less-violating) promo pics up for this (like the one I've posted below) that could be swapped into the main-promo slot from home in a couple minutes by somebody with the access, which we know some DAZzlers have. So why hasn't this been done already?

    There is NO TOS violation and all artwork has been approved by daz....and the current artwork also reflects changes they specifically asked for.
    You are welcome to take anything up with daz when they are in the office. That is what they are there for. But do not imply that the work is in any kind of violation.

    Thank You

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,672
    edited November 2012

    The image for the severed man don't really bother me. I glanced at it. Moved on to check out the cool vampire LEON M5.

    I can understand why people are bothered by certain images. I've left certain sights because the imagery has crossed the line. Everyone has different triggers of things that bother them.

    Post edited by Serene Night on
  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited November 2012

    RawArt said:
    KickAir 8P said:

    And its great that RawArt's changed his sigline graphic so gory severed limbs aren't scattered through a bunch of other threads (thanks RawArt!). But currently everybody still has to browse by his violently and bloodily TOS-violating promo pic every time they visit the store. There's already a couple of non-violating (or at least less-violating) promo pics up for this (like the one I've posted below) that could be swapped into the main-promo slot from home in a couple minutes by somebody with the access, which we know some DAZzlers have. So why hasn't this been done already?

    There is NO TOS violation and all artwork has been approved by daz....and the current artwork also reflects changes they specifically asked for.
    You are welcome to take anything up with daz when they are in the office. That is what they are there for. But do not imply that the work is in any kind of violation.

    Thank You
    I didn't imply it -- Richard stated it outright. Unless I've misunderstood, and the below image (currently the main promo pic for the product) is okay within the TOS and can be posted anywhere on the site?

    BTW, love the new sigline graphic!

    Image removed

    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 1,385
    edited December 1969

    I found unnecessary post the main promo image here, because THAT image was the beginning for this thread started.

  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 1,385
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:

    Answer NO and NO. But a limited exception has been made for RawArt's thread.

    what about the shop??
    ddulo.jpg
    990 x 1025 - 318K
  • Muon QuarkMuon Quark Posts: 562
    edited December 1969

    Again, no two people are going to agree on what's appropriate and what is not. Guess what? That's OK. It makes the world a more interesting place. What is NOT OK is being disrespectful about that opinion and not being able to discuss it without being disrespectful. Please please everyone, express your opinions without being disrespectful to one another. Isn't there enough bad stuff going on in the world?

  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited November 2012

    zilvergrafix said:
    I found unnecessary post the main promo image here, because THAT image was the beginning for this thread started.

    Sorry, but that's why I found it necessary to post it here, given that I was accused of implying it's a TOS violation when it's not. Except I'm pretty sure Richard said it is. Is it? If so, then you can report it as such, a mod will remove it, and RawArt owes me an apology (not that I'm looking for one, that's not the point). And, regardless of who approved it or why, it therefor shouldn't be the product's main promo pic in the store, and should be switched out just as quickly as any other TOS-violating pic -- we shouldn't have to wait till Monday for that.
    Post edited by KickAir 8P on
  • ChoholeChohole Posts: 33,604
    edited November 2012

    What Ricahrd actually said was

    Answer NO and NO. But a limited exception has been made for RawArt’s thread.


    This is not RawArt's thread.
    Post edited by Chohole on
  • ledheadledhead Posts: 1,586
    edited December 1969

    Being told the promo pic is not violent is like telling a cop that the 20 pounds of pot found in the trunk of your car isn't yours.

  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,287
    edited December 1969

    Do you really think making a big deal over this is going to help your case? It sounds as if you are ok with artistic nudity and would like to see it allowed here. But you are offended by gore. Rawn pushed the boundaries and got something allowed that probably would not have been allowed before. By making a huge deal over this it is going to make Daz not want to allow the boundaries to be pushed again. When someone tries to push the boundaries again with something more like you would want to see, Daz is going to look back on how people reacted to this and think... nope, not touching that, we saw what happened before. Instead of getting upset by this, you should be looking at it as the boundaries of what can be shown have been expanded, that will make it easier to be expanded again. Maybe if we can push the line over for gore... then maybe they can be pushed a little on the nudity side as well.

    Personally I am totally against censorship, I want to see total artistic freedom for everyone. Anyone who expands the limits of what can be shown is making things better for everyone. By complaining and making a big deal over this you will likely see more restrictions in the future, not less.

  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 1,385
    edited December 1969

    KickAir 8P said:
    zilvergrafix said:
    I found unnecessary post the main promo image here, because THAT image was the beginning for this thread started.

    Sorry, but that's why I found it necessary to post it here
    Agreed, in fact, it was firstly posted in mi initial post of this thread, but was removed due to big boobs and areolas injected on my Hitomi...go figure!! :roll:
  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,658
    edited December 1969

    You want to know what I find absolutely hilarious about this entire subject. It does not matter in any way, shape or form, what one person considers to be artistic, it doesn't matter what an entire group, small or large, considers to be artistic, could be tens of thousands consider something to be artistic. All it takes is one person to find it offensive and the art is shut down. How is this possible????? Fear is what makes it possible, because contrary to what many believe, one person really can make that kind of difference. I do not own my own website for a very good reason, I refuse to pay for something that tells me I can do whatever I want with it, within the law, obviously, however, I can do whatever I want so long as I follow their rules of what is allowed..basically giving and taking away all within the same paragraph., so I use free sites to build from. I refuse to pay for something that tells me what is considered art. I have no nudity on my forum, nothing objectionable in any way, yet a single individual can report me and without so much as an investigation to see if it's true, my site would be shut down. So ask yourselves why Daz does things the way they do, it basically boils down to the same thing. Everyone here is an artist of some kind, each has their own interpretation of what is considered art, no one has the right to tell another what is art and yet you all do just that...this thread proves that.

  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 2,995
    edited December 1969

    Sprinkles said:
    Semantics Kendall.

    I assume you subscribe to the “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” school of thought so loved by Bill Clinton as well.

    There is only one way I'm aware of to insult someone worse than comparing him with that man, and that would be by comparing him to the current one. Luckily, I was trying to interject some levity into this thread, so I'll overlook it. :-)


    The Severed man’s graphics clearly show violence done by individuals against others, whether that be actual, fantasy or implied. And the cover shot of what I assume to be a samurai holding a severed head in one hand and a sword in the other is quite graphic.

    Sure it is graphic, but from the image it is NOT clear that that man dismembered the body. It could be that he came upon the body, and as happened in numerous plots, he was accused of being the killer. Is there blood on HIS sword? I don't see any? :-)

    My point is that the TOS, as quoted, says violence, not the display of blood.

    Be that as it may, can the image be disturbing to some? Yes. So can the images of a butcher shop, a dentist's office, or many other images.


    If the first promo picture was a warning that this item shows violent content, then everyone would be happy including those who view at work and around children.

    If not we may as well throw the family site label out of the window and show everything in the same way Rendererotica does.

    Sprinkles

    If the site software's tags were working, if, if, if.

    :-) Shoganai.

    Kendall

  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,287
    edited December 1969

    "Repulsion is the sentry that guards the gate to all that we most desire."
    Salvador Dali

  • SnowSultanSnowSultan Posts: 3,630
    edited December 1969

    Thank you Rawn for changing the banner ad, that one is more appropriate for the forums.

    However, why is the samurai image still the main promo in the store? As I and others have already suggested, why can't it be moved to be the last promo image so that only those interested in the product will see it?

    I happen to think textures should be able to show full nudity in the promo images too (like at Rendo), but LIKE Rendo, there should be a content advisory label over thumbnails for such images. Is this really so hard? If Rawn's image is meant to show the product in use, then nude textures should also be shown - with a warning. I would also say it's inappropriate to show a completely nude man or woman as the first promotional image for an product. There should be one - just not the first one.

    I'm not big on making occasional exceptions to the rule. I entered an image in the monthly gallery contest a while back that had violence (but no blood), it was posted and then removed and I received no notice of why. Fair enough, if it was too violent for the gallery, it needed to be removed. If I saw other violent images remain in the gallery, I'd be frustrated. Rawn's samurai image is ten times more violent than the image I entered or anything we're allowed to post in the forums. It simply shouldn't be displayed as prominently as it currently is.

  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited November 2012

    chohole said:
    What Ricahrd actually said was
    Answer NO and NO. But a limited exception has been made for RawArt’s thread.
    This is not RawArt's thread.

    Nor is the store RawArt's thread. So why is a TOS-violating render the main promo-pic for this product in the "family-friendly" store where any kid can run across it? Either it's not TOS-violating, or DAZ allowed (encouraged, according to RawArt) this.

    .
    Do you really think making a big deal over this is going to help your case? It sounds as if you are ok with artistic nudity and would like to see it allowed here. But you are offended by gore. Rawn pushed the boundaries and got something allowed that probably would not have been allowed before. By making a huge deal over this it is going to make Daz not want to allow the boundaries to be pushed again . . .
    The point (IIUC) isn't that the product shouldn't be up -- it's a great product, badly needed, and I'm hoping for an expansion or three! It's that TOS-violating violence and gore shouldn't be in the main promo pic of the product where customers can't help but seeing it while shoping. Something like this should require a click-through at least, like selecting the product because you want to see more, or looking in RawArt's exception-provided product thread.
    Post edited by KickAir 8P on
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 14,251
    edited December 1969

    Everyone is entitled to an opinion and that is fine to discuss as long as it is done in a civil manner. If things can't stay civil in this thread you run the risk of us locking the thread. Direct your comments to the subject and not any individual.

  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 1,385
    edited December 1969

    Just to clarify something:

    Not the goal expose my nude works if you are referring to me, I'm comfortable with DevianArt, even is much easier googleing "zilvergrafix" in google images :coolhmm: in fact, modesty apart, I have tons of email begging for my most recent works and many commision works in progre$$, sincerely don't need exposure here, the MAIN idea is...please, Daz, follow your own rules, that image is a nono for your "family site" or things had changed?, well, if gore is allowed, nude MUST be allowed too in promo shots of productos, nude of ANY user, not only speaking for me, If all the US people can manage ripped limbs I can't understand how our own skin, the same skin we are seeing in our couples when we do/sex/love, can not allow here too!!, US citizens go to shower with your eyes closed or what?

    artistic freedom?, not here for sure, this is a business site, the forum is limited in many ways, the form of how to tell, how to express, even how write and thus avoiding other forum users got wrong my words like you had stated here.

    again, sorry for my grammar, and that is the only thing that I will apologize, not for other things that need fixed not for me, for ALL whose were offended, customers looking maybe for 3D hair or 3D cloth and clicking "new releases" got a surprise in your PCs, not all have their PC in your room, what about a living room "hey look this wonderful 3D site when I've bought my Aiko3 and Genesis fig...wowowo! what is thaaaaatt!!"

    my dos pesos.

  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,287
    edited November 2012

    @KickAir 8P, I said nothing about the product itself, my comments have been about the images only. Nothing I said was about what products should or shouldn't be in the store. Just to clarify.

    As for the product promotional images. I don't see a single act of violence portrayed in any of them. As has been pointed out already, there is no blood on the sword. There is nothing to indicated that the Samurai character did anything to the hacked up guy. It looks to me that he more than likely walked in and found him like that.

    As for Daz being a family site. I have never once seen an image on the site, either in the store or on the forums that I have found to be offensive in any way, or that I would have an issue showing to any member of my family or my friends of any age.

    Again, if you want nudity in promo shots for products, if you want that boundary pushed, is making a big deal over this going to help that or hurt it? Things happen in small steps, this is one small step expanding what can be shown in the promos. If you make a big deal over this small step, the next step will likely be backward, not forward.

    Post edited by LycanthropeX on
  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited November 2012

    LycanthropeX said:
    @KickAir 8P, I said nothing about the product itself, my comments have been about the images only. Nothing I said was about what products should or shouldn't be in the store. Just to clarify.
    You seemed to be saying that discussing this issue could get the product removed from the store, or prevent similar products from being offered -- sorry, I just wanted to clarify that that wasn't the intended outcome. (Although I'll grant that unintended outcomes happen all the time, yanking the product would be well over the top. And hopefully the success of this product - which I'm sure this thread will promote - will encourage similar offerings.)


    LycanthropeX said:
    As for the product promotional images. I don't see a single act of violence portrayed in any of them. As has been pointed out already, there is no blood on the sword . . .
    Samurai swords are well-known for being cleanable by a hard swing through air (which is an exaggeration, but still). So the lack of visible blood on the blade doesn't make this look any less violent . . . but am I to understand that a pic of a dismembered corpse, lying it its own blood, with a terrified and agonized expression on its severed head, is perfectly fine within the TOS?



    As for Daz being a family site. I have never once seen an image on the site, either in the store or on the forums that I have found to be offensive in any way, or that I would have an issue showing to any member of my family or my friends of any age.
    Me neither (well, not in the store), but neither your preferences nor mine (nor anybody elses) are the issue. (Edited to add: whoops, I find this promo pic offensive, but that's off-topic.)
    Post edited by KickAir 8P on
  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,287
    edited December 1969

    Nope, all comments I have made have been about art and images allowed either in the store or on the forums or both. Nothing was intended to be about products. I certainly did not intend to imply that any of this could result in a product being pulled. If that came across it was not at all my intent. I am simply speaking about art and images.

  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 2,995
    edited December 1969

    KickAir 8P said:


    LycanthropeX said:
    As for the product promotional images. I don't see a single act of violence portrayed in any of them. As has been pointed out already, there is no blood on the sword . . .
    Samurai swords are well-known for being cleanable by a hard swing through air (which is an exaggeration, but still). So the lack of visible blood on the blade doesn't make this look any less violent . . . but am I to understand that a pic of a dismembered corpse, lying it its own blood, with a terrified and agonized expression on its severed head, is perfectly fine within the TOS?

    This is called "ochiburi". And it doesn't work to remove "all of the blood" any more than slinging a butcher knife will remove the blood there. What is left out from the "films" is that during "noto" or returning of the blade to the saya (scabbard) a piece of rice paper (or one's hakama) is used to clean the blade as it is drawn back. There are between 27 and 29 inches of steel and blood REALLY REALLY likes to stick to steel. If the blade is put back into the saya with blood on it, and the blood is allowed to dry, there's a fair chance that one will not be drawing it again without breaking the saya apart using a chisel. Then one will have a devil of a time getting the rust off of the blade, ESPECIALLY if it is folded steel.

    In short, it is a MYTH that the blood can be shaken from the blade.

    For those wondering, I have NOT killed anyone with my blades, but I have been through advanced cutting where freshly slaughtered meat is purchased and used for training and testing -- and subsequent grilling :-).

    Kendall

  • ZilvergrafixZilvergrafix Posts: 1,385
    edited December 1969

    Incredible how a simple clean blade can be an excuse for not being commited a crime, in my country exists a phrase that I'll recall:

    "tanto peca el que mata la vaca como el que le agarro la pata", in simple terms, "the one killing a cow is guilty in the same way if others helping him holding the cow"
    what next, the samurai have not blood in his clothes due to a japanese soap powder technologically advanced only for ninja use?.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Kendall Sears said:
    but I have been through advanced cutting where freshly slaughtered meat is purchased and used for training and testing -- and subsequent grilling :-).

    Kendall

    That's the part I like...

  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited December 1969

    Kendall Sears said:
    KickAir 8P said:
    LycanthropeX said:
    As for the product promotional images. I don't see a single act of violence portrayed in any of them. As has been pointed out already, there is no blood on the sword . . .

    Samurai swords are well-known for being cleanable by a hard swing through air (which is an exaggeration, but still). So the lack of visible blood on the blade doesn't make this look any less violent . . .

    This is called "ochiburi". And it doesn't work to remove "all of the blood" any more than slinging a butcher knife will remove the blood there . . . In short, it is a MYTH that the blood can be shaken from the blade.
    True, which is why I called it an exaggeration -- you did better. But it's a well-known myth thanks to those movies (and other media), so the lack of blood on that samurai's blade doesn't make this look any less like he just cut that man to pieces, and doesn't make the pic any less violent.
  • LycanthropeXLycanthropeX Posts: 2,287
    edited December 1969

    we have a saying in the USA, "Innocent until PROVEN guilty" basically it means you can look guilty but you are presumed to be innocent of any crime until all the facts are in. I find it doubtful that some one could hack up a body as severely as that and not have a spec of blood on their clothing or any on their sword. So to my mind the image portrays someone who found this gruesome scene, not someone who caused it. So to me I see an act of discovery, not an act of violence.

    As for the amount of blood and gore in the image, i see more blood and gore when making steaks for my lunch.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,218
    edited December 1969

    (i) the semiotics of the image are not, so to speak, worth shedding blood over

    (ii) the TOS referred to are the forum TOS - the store is DAZ central's to police and rule on.

  • Kendall SearsKendall Sears Posts: 2,995
    edited November 2012

    KickAir 8P said:
    Kendall Sears said:
    KickAir 8P said:
    LycanthropeX said:
    As for the product promotional images. I don't see a single act of violence portrayed in any of them. As has been pointed out already, there is no blood on the sword . . .

    Samurai swords are well-known for being cleanable by a hard swing through air (which is an exaggeration, but still). So the lack of visible blood on the blade doesn't make this look any less violent . . .

    This is called "ochiburi". And it doesn't work to remove "all of the blood" any more than slinging a butcher knife will remove the blood there . . . In short, it is a MYTH that the blood can be shaken from the blade.
    True, which is why I called it an exaggeration -- you did better. But it's a well-known myth thanks to those movies (and other media), so the lack of blood on that samurai's blade doesn't make this look any less like he just cut that man to pieces, and doesn't make the pic any less violent.

    Where is the violence in the picture? No one is in the act of killing, or otherwise violating anyone. The word you're looking for is "gruesome", or maybe "appalling", possibly "ghastly". The picture is definitely "grisly", "macabre", and "morbid". For some it may be "repulsive", or "horrific".

    You know, I'm feeling an itch to watch "Lone Wolf and Cub" :-) Now THERE is some violence. :-)

    Kendall

    Post edited by Kendall Sears on
  • KickAir 8PKickAir 8P Posts: 1,865
    edited December 1969

    LycanthropeX said:
    . . . As for the amount of blood and gore in the image, i see more blood and gore when making steaks for my lunch.
    Human blood and gore? :gulp:

    .
    (i) the semiotics of the image are not, so to speak, worth shedding blood over (ii) the TOS referred to are the forum TOS - the store is DAZ central's to police and rule on.

    I'm sorry Richard, but just to make sure I understood you: DAZ's Terms of Service do not apply to DAZ's Store?
  • westonmiwestonmi Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I'm going to give people who find "(insertimagetypeofyourchoicehere)" image offensive a little tip...

    First copy the offending image url then find the spot in your browser that allows you to block things (in Opera it's Tools>Avanced>Blocked Content) and then add the url for the offending image to your blocked content list. Then you go here, https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/requests/new , to contact DAZ directly about the offending image.

    That will likely get you better results then coming into the forum and attacking a PA & their product (which is against the TOS).

This discussion has been closed.