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I check on this kind of thread rather often, as others may be doing from time to time.
Not a lot of forward info, lots of hope and charity, but always enjoy the conversations. Long live the King!
If DAZ does not have the resources to update the web page http://www.daz3d.com/products/bryce/bryce-tech-specs/ to even mention Mountain Lion, where will they get the resources to update Bryce to run on Mountain Lion?
Or when that page says "OS X 10.4 or above (Not currently compatible with OS X 10.7 Lion)" do they actually mean that it is compatible with OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion, just not Lion?
No it means it is only compatible with the OS X that came before Lion. It does rather stand to reason.
No Chohole, this does not stand to reason.
Mountain lion is an upgraded operating system. There are several programs that WILL operate on, say, MacOS 10.1-10.2, WON'T operate on OS X 10.3 - 10.5, and WILL operate on 10.5 to 10.6. The reason an old app came back into being is either an OS enhancement allowed the running of certain APIs, or a shortcut was found that allowed its use.
But this is all irrelevant. Mac Bryce is off the table as far as development goes in its current form. It has been retired and isn't supported – that's why it's free. Also, stiv is completely accurate in his assessment over the web page update. Updating a web page and web resources is among the simplest jobs in the IT industry to do. If DAZ3D won't lift a finger to make one little text change of a web page, they've got NOTHING in the tank for a software upgrade.
OK, I stand corrected. I will send a query through channels.
That's quite an assumption that they don't have the resources to update the web page. There could be plenty of other reasons the web page has not been updated. A big one that comes to mind is they're distracted with the sales common in the last several months of the year. Which has been the way things go for several years now. Then again they may feel there just hasn't been enough interest to worry about updating the page? I mean just look at how threads here in the Bryce forum go compared to threads in the Members Only forum or the commons. I've seen threads in those forums during one of their big sales grow more in one day then most threads here grow in a year. Like it or not Bryce is just a very small niche market right now and the Mac portion of that market is even smaller still.
Now think seriously about what all these threads complaining about Bryce's developement will do to people considering Bryce. If you're being fair and reasonable all this presumption of how Bryce is dead only leads to one logical conclusion, people not using it will likely decide not to use it, why invest the time in learning a program that so many who currently use it are saying is dead? All this wailing and gnashing of teeth is only going to increase the likelihood it will just be left to die.
That's quite an assumption that they don't have the resources to update the web page. There could be plenty of other reasons the web page has not been updated. A big one that comes to mind is they're distracted with the sales common in the last several months of the year. Which has been the way things go for several years now. Then again they may feel there just hasn't been enough interest to worry about updating the page? I mean just look at how threads here in the Bryce forum go compared to threads in the Members Only forum or the commons. I've seen threads in those forums during one of their big sales grow more in one day then most threads here grow in a year. Like it or not Bryce is just a very small niche market right now and the Mac portion of that market is even smaller still.
Now think seriously about what all these threads complaining about Bryce's developement will do to people considering Bryce. If you're being fair and reasonable all this presumption of how Bryce is dead only leads to one logical conclusion, people not using it will likely decide not to use it, why invest the time in learning a program that so many who currently use it are saying is dead? All this wailing and gnashing of teeth is only going to increase the likelihood it will just be left to die.
At this point in time Bryce deserves to die, I'm not happy right now about the fact, but the issue is simple, Daz has once bought and now killed Bryce by ignoring it long enough where people are now forced to learn much harder software packages.
If Daz ever gets Bryce working again, I am not sure many Mac users will come back and allow false hope again for one more chance of redemption.
I'm open for suggestions:
What do any of you consider a comparable replacement to Bryce?
I have my opinions, but would greatly appreciate fellow artists/enthusiasts/zealots input.
Thanks in advance.
Mac, btw.
Compared to what Bryce did there aren't many, but Blender is one, others are paid for, but for now I can't remember many right now.
Bryce works fine on my Mac... It's obituary is a bit premature.
Bryce works fine on my Mac... It's obituary is a bit premature.
And what version of the Mac OS and what Mac are you using?
I have a Late 2011 iMac and a ASUS Hackintosh, both use 10.8.x as their OS, Bryce will NOT work on either.
The iMac has 16GB ram a 1 GB HD, a TB of HD space, and enough power to run a small space station.
The Hakintosh is a i7 processor 3rd gen, 17.3" LCD, 32GB ram, 2GB video card, and 2.3TB of HD space.
Now I don't know about you but I have no intention of downgrading my OS, or attempt to use CrossOver, or VMWare to run Windows on my Mac, and run Bryce in it, because I've already tried and all three attempts have failed utterly.
I'm sorry, Bryce deserves to be buried, because Daz has obviously put the final nail in the coffin by offering free software to a majority of people that can't run it, just to piss them off so badly that they are forced to learn new software in return.
You want to piss off an OS base, offer them something that doesn't work, and then ignore them for two OS revisions and tell them that there is no future opportunities of the upgrade or update of said software in the cards for quite some time.
Then revamp the website pushing the software forward as the latest and greatest thing out there, when it won't work on a computer that has been released for almost three years time.
Yeah, it may work on your computer, but it won't work on computers that came out in the past three years which sums up to be over 3 million users.
Like I've said before (on page 1 of this thread), I have a perfectly working Macbook, with a perfectly working copy of OSX 10.5.8 which runs a perfectly working copy of Bryce Pro 7... As well as EVERY other software I need.
I'll also buy a new Mac eventually... but I'll be keeping this one, (as I've kept every single Mac I've ever owned) even if just to run Bryce.
So Bryce isn't going to die anytime soon.
You too can join in the fun by purchasing an older Mac on eBay (you can pick one up for less than £100) with OSX 10.5.8 already installed...
... Or you can continue to whinge.
I guess it depends on how much you like using Bryce.
And what version of the Mac OS and what Mac are you using?
I have a Late 2011 iMac and a ASUS Hackintosh, both use 10.8.x as their OS, Bryce will NOT work on either.
The iMac has 16GB ram a 1 GB HD, a TB of HD space, and enough power to run a small space station.
The Hakintosh is a i7 processor 3rd gen, 17.3" LCD, 32GB ram, 2GB video card, and 2.3TB of HD space.
Now I don't know about you but I have no intention of downgrading my OS, or attempt to use CrossOver, or VMWare to run Windows on my Mac, and run Bryce in it, because I've already tried and all three attempts have failed utterly.
I'm sorry, Bryce deserves to be buried, because Daz has obviously put the final nail in the coffin by offering free software to a majority of people that can't run it, just to piss them off so badly that they are forced to learn new software in return.
You want to piss off an OS base, offer them something that doesn't work, and then ignore them for two OS revisions and tell them that there is no future opportunities of the upgrade or update of said software in the cards for quite some time.
Then revamp the website pushing the software forward as the latest and greatest thing out there, when it won't work on a computer that has been released for almost three years time.
Yeah, it may work on your computer, but it won't work on computers that came out in the past three years which sums up to be over 3 million users.
The real question though is how many of those 3 Million users use Bryce? I don't really expect an answer but if you combined both PC and Mac users that actually use Bryce I doubt the total is 3 Million. Daz didn't kill Bryce. If anything killed Bryce it's the fact that once a capable person has Bryce they really don't need to buy anything else and so it doesn't generate much revenue. That's at the core of why Bryce has been owned by several companies now, Daz being the latest.
Also I seriously doubt the entire Mac Base is pissed off about Bryce because the entire Base does not use Bryce or want to. Also I have seen various Mac users chime in, in various threads, saying they're disappointed that Bryce doesn't work but it's no big deal and they'll wait or just do without. It's funny though when an individual of a group gets pissed off suddenly that individual seems to know what every person in the group is thinking even though they haven't ever talked to or met 99.9% of that group.
Please, as a Moderator can I make the normal comment. Please keep the conversation civil, and don't let it degenerate into an platform war of any sort.
DAZ 3D has said that if it is possible to get Bryce working under the newer Mac OS Xs then they will do so, at some point in the future.
Now putting my other hat on
AS a long term and committed Bryce user can I say that Bryce is far from Dead, there are more than a few Bryce users in this forum that are determined to prove this point.
Bryce can and in fact does generate revenue on content. This may not be Bryce specific content, but any imported content has to come from somewhere, and a vast amount that I see used in renders, and use myself in renders, has been bought in the DAZ 3D market place.
Bryce has a built in bridge, to enable this content to be moved into Bryce.
OK some of us do this in a different way as well, but DS does it in a easier way (I am told).
I loved using Bryce, I made quite a bit off of it, and it helped launch my graphic design career, that being said I am not buying, or as I said before pulling out my old Mac to run one piece of software.
My entire system runs now as a 64 bit system, all my software has been updated to run as such, Bryce is the only piece of software that will not work on my year old iMac...
I don't see why Daz has let it suffer this long, I'll tell you right now, if any of the community is like me, they may not come back... because Bryce although user friendly, if we can't depend on yearly releases to work with the latest OS or patched OS, then I don't see a reason to stand behind Bryce any more...
Bryce may be a good piece of software three years ago, but unless you've noticed the Bryce Forum has become a who's who of administrators, and old posters and new people pissed off about the software not working.
There are new users, but not as many as should be expected from a newly released (non working) version of Bryce should expect.
Sorry, Bryce right now is on life support, it may be time to pull the plug. I've moved over to Blender only because its been fleshed out as of late, and actually works well, and is a great substitute for Bryce in many ways.
I loved using Bryce, I made quite a bit off of it, and it helped launch my graphic design career, that being said I am not buying, or as I said before pulling out my old Mac to run one piece of software.
My entire system runs now as a 64 bit system, all my software has been updated to run as such, Bryce is the only piece of software that will not work on my year old iMac...
I don't see why Daz has let it suffer this long, I'll tell you right now, if any of the community is like me, they may not come back... because Bryce although user friendly, if we can't depend on yearly releases to work with the latest OS or patched OS, then I don't see a reason to stand behind Bryce any more...
Bryce may be a good piece of software three years ago, but unless you've noticed the Bryce Forum has become a who's who of administrators, and old posters and new people pissed off about the software not working.
There are new users, but not as many as should be expected from a newly released (non working) version of Bryce should expect.
Sorry, Bryce right now is on life support, it may be time to pull the plug. I've moved over to Blender only because its been fleshed out as of late, and actually works well, and is a great substitute for Bryce in many ways.
Okay well you got to do what you got to do even if that means walking away from a program you supposedly loved and that helped get your career going. I say supposedly because if I really loved a program and all that held me back from using it was that I had to pull out an old computer that could run a slightly older OS then I'd be pulling it out. I mean I could understand if you didn't have that old computer and so you had to buy someone else's used computer. I even understand refusing to set up your new computer so you can run Windows and then run the Windows version of Bryce. All though me personally I'd still consider that option too if I really loved the program and it had helped make me successful, but that's just me.
As for Daz what I object to is the notion that Daz is deliberately letting Bryce die. I think that just really kind of an absurd claim. No company buys a program, developes it from Bryce 5 to Bryce 7.1 making significant enhancements along the way and then just let it die for no particular reason. I also kind of object to how so many Mac users make it out like it's a personal attck on them. Maybe if they were developing it for PC and not developing it for Mac I could understand but the fact is it hasn't been updated for either platform in all that time and both platforms have seen multiple OS releases. The only difference being that PC users can still use Bryce with no problem other then the memory limitation.
No what I see when I look around is a company that's struggling to stay alive because it targets a market that is mostly people playing around with 3D and as such, in this bad economy, the stuff Daz sells is easily deemed frivilous and therefore something that is easily sacrificed. Isee that as being why they decided to give Bryce, Studio and Hexagon away, to try to help give incentive to customers to keep buying things.
You don't know your computer history, or software/game history... do you?
Companies buy other companies for software all the time just to take it off the market... Ever hear of EA games? Ever hear of Bullfrog? Ever hear of Dungeon Keeper?
Bullfrog was bought by EA games, and was made defunct. Bullfrog created and came out with not too long before EA bought them Dungeon Keeper 2, EA bought the company, and killed Dungeon Keeper 3. Apple has done the same thing, as has Microsoft... if you honestly don't think companies do that, then you are truly ignorant of business practices.
Also, I can't wait for software to come out, if I did that when Quark Xpress was late I would of been fired from my job a long time ago...I adapt, I can't afford to just have a wait and see attitude.
One last thing, Daz gave away the software to bring in new people, that's it... they couldn't and still haven't made enough to warrant keeping the software alive. I wouldn't be amazed if they sink the Bryce series and come out with one of their own, if they do at all. Either that or this next version of the software may be the last, if it isn't already...
It has been two years, and multiple programs have been updated, but not Bryce, I don't know about you but a development cycle should not take two years, especially with an already established software package.
Windows Vista...'nuff said.
Or a little closer to home...Lisa.
Windows Vista...'nuff said.
Or a little closer to home...Lisa.
Seriously you are going to go back almost 30 years to find something with Apple? At that time Apple didn't exist... so lets be real here, Jobs and Woz were both working on something brand new.
As for Windows Vista, I'm not going to Windows bash here, but Windows has never worked correctly... I'm also IT, I do Mac/PC/Linux/Unix, and I'll tell you right now, Vista was an answer to the OS X operating system at the time, because Microsoft was bleeding followers to competition. If you want to compare Daz to Windows then go for it, but you know what, MS at least had a time table upon release. Daz doesn't.
Yes, it does: DAZ-soon.
Seriously you are going to go back almost 30 years to find something with Apple? At that time Apple didn't exist... so lets be real here, Jobs and Woz were both working on something brand new.
As for Windows Vista, I'm not going to Windows bash here, but Windows has never worked correctly... I'm also IT, I do Mac/PC/Linux/Unix, and I'll tell you right now, Vista was an answer to the OS X operating system at the time, because Microsoft was bleeding followers to competition. If you want to compare Daz to Windows then go for it, but you know what, MS at least had a time table upon release. Daz doesn't.
Vista fit your criteria of 'long dev cycle' and 'established software'...
As to 'no Apple'...just who was making/selling the ][ series...Banana? Cherry? Blueberry?
I didn't 'HAVE' to go back to the beginning...I chose to.
You're right, a development cycle shouldn't take over 2 years.
But we're dealing here with an application that when it was written was maverick and has been botched and patched by several companies over the years and uses code that quite frankly from what I read is a minefield of obscurity and confusion.
My guess is that finding someone with the right skill set to understand Mountain Lion integration as well as understanding code written in obscure 20 year old language that no one uses anymore is proving difficult... especially when Apple abandoned the utility that Bryce required to make that obscure code run on it's operating system.
I've been trying to stay out of this but that's not quite correct. Bryce has 2 problems with Mac on 10.7+. One is the DAZ registration code, which fails as soon as you enter your serial code. The second is windows created with the AmberKernal crash. The reg code of course was added by DAZ and Amberkernal was created with B3 in 1997 and is OS neutral (and well documented).
If you have a version of Mac Bryce that was registered in OS6 Bryce starts up just fine and works as long as you don't use any of the Labs (which uses Amberkernal). I use it to render in OS 10.8.2 on my dual boot MacPro. The same exact thing happened with B5 and was fixed by Brian Wagner in B5.5.
(Rant on)
That is the big problem with DAZ and Bryce - Brian, who was hired by DAZ at one point was the father of modern Bryce (he did the Mac to PC port and then the PC to Mac port, the render system and Amberkernal) and after a very brief period working on Bryce, the DAZ management put him to work de-bugging plug-ins for D|S. No matter how you look at it that's just poor resource management and then even worse they let him go. I'll never forgive DAZ management for this or ever really trust them again.
(Rant off).
You don't know your computer history, or software/game history... do you?
Companies buy other companies for software all the time just to take it off the market... Ever hear of EA games? Ever hear of Bullfrog? Ever hear of Dungeon Keeper?
Bullfrog was bought by EA games, and was made defunct. Bullfrog created and came out with not too long before EA bought them Dungeon Keeper 2, EA bought the company, and killed Dungeon Keeper 3. Apple has done the same thing, as has Microsoft... if you honestly don't think companies do that, then you are truly ignorant of business practices.
Also, I can't wait for software to come out, if I did that when Quark Xpress was late I would of been fired from my job a long time ago...I adapt, I can't afford to just have a wait and see attitude.
One last thing, Daz gave away the software to bring in new people, that's it... they couldn't and still haven't made enough to warrant keeping the software alive. I wouldn't be amazed if they sink the Bryce series and come out with one of their own, if they do at all. Either that or this next version of the software may be the last, if it isn't already...
It has been two years, and multiple programs have been updated, but not Bryce, I don't know about you but a development cycle should not take two years, especially with an already established software package.
Did EA buy Bullfrog, and Dungeon Keeper 2 and then develope them to Bullfrog 2, Bullfrog 2.5, Bullfrog 3, Bullfrog 3.1, Bullfrog 3.3, Bullfrog 4, Bullfrog 4.1 and Dungeon Keeper 3, Dungeon Keeper 3.5, Dungeon Keeper 4, Dungeon Keeper 4.1, Dungeon Keeper 4.3, Dungeon Keeper 5 and Dungeon Keeper 5.1? Like Daz did with Bryce? I'm well aware that companies buy up competing products to get them off the market or to take from them but they usuall don't spend several years and fair sums of money in significant developement that actually improves the product greatly, just to let them die. Daz aquired Bryce at the Bryce 5 point, then there was Bryce 5.5, Bryce 6, Bryce 6.1, Bryce 6.3, Bryce 7 and Bryce 7.1. I don't know the history well enough to tell you what was added when but Bryce 7.1 is well beyond what Bryce 5 was.
As far as waiting, well you say you can't so you adapt, but you are only willing to adapt in ways you find personally acceptable. To me adapting would include pulling out an older machine or setting my current machine up so it can either run an Older version of an OS that solves my problem or an entirely different OS that also solves my problem, especially if my job was riding on it. I would do that because I am familiar with the program forcing me to do those things but unfamiliar with the new program I might gravitate towards to replace it. If I found that new program too difficult to work with or it did a worse job I could find myself in the unemployment line for being too inflexible.
The only thing you've said that I agree with is that they gave away Bryce to attract new customers, but they also gave away Hexagon and Studio (their baby from the ground up). Which says to me they're not trying to build up just a specific market segment, they're trying to build up their customer base and since it coincided with when the economy worldwide was failing it says to me they were struggling to stay solvent.
I can only agree with you, Dan. Brian came back from Citrix and fixed IBL from 6.0 to 6.1. It was a great experience to work with him. It did not make me happy when I heard that he was transferred to work on Studio. He is not only a great programmer but also a great Bryce supporter. Those rapidly thin-out at DAZ 3D, which is really very sad.
I can only agree with you, Dan. Brian came back from Citrix and fixed IBL from 6.0 to 6.1. It was a great experience to work with him. It did not make me happy when I heard that he was transferred to work on Studio. He is not only a great programmer but also a great Bryce supporter. Those rapidly thin-out at DAZ 3D, which is really very sad.
Given what I'm hearing it sounds like bringing him back even if just to get Bryce working on the latest Mac OS's would be the smartest move Daz could make. Of course given the history there may be issues on both sides that would prevent that?
Correll did hire Brain as a consultant for Bryce 5 for just that reason. I have no idea if Brain would consider this but I thik he might.
But considering the new management at DAZ I would find that very unlikely (one of the first things they did was let the technical writers go and started the ill-recieved "user generated documentation")
Well if they could do it but don't then the new management should be let go because they're allowing things to continue that are alienating customers and causing the company to lose business. I'm not a Mac user and yet even I recognize that they really need to do whatever it takes to get the Mac problems solved. It sounds like from what you said previously that Brian is intimately involved with the specific areas having problems and as such he should be the best qualified to fix them if they can be fixed. To bring on someone else to do it because they're cheaper or just because of some personal issue between management and Brian could end up being more costly and might result in the problem not being solved.
Yes, we miss Dar. But even those who wrote up part of the 7.1 doc as volunteers didn't fare better. The doc was never finished.
The two obvious candidates - obvious to me, anyway - are Vue and Carrara.
Carrara is less focused on landscape generation than Bryce, but it's come along in recent versions, and is now surprisingly capable for landscape modeling and rendering. It's not as cheap as Bryce, but with DAZ dropping the prices on DAZ Originals every time you turn around, you might be able to pick it up at a discount. I'm a big fan of Carrara, although I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't yet match the ease of use or the range of results you can get with Bryce, in the landscape modeling domain.
Vue is, of course, aimed squarely at the same niche as Bryce. Given chohole's known fanaticism on the subject of Bryce and the rather intimidating look of that awfully big stick, I won't go so far as to suggest that Vue might actually be better than Bryce (heresy! heresy! stone the blasphemer! :) ) ... but let's just say that it's a very good program and generates some extremely impressive results. The catch, of course, is that to measure up to Bryce 7 Pro, you'd probably need to get the Vue Studio version, which will set you back a mere $400. They have occasional discounts, but it's still a big investment.
If you want to cheap out, you could try TerraRay (currently discounted to $10). It's a nice little app and seems to be under fairly active development, but to be honest, it's no Bryce.
There's a Mac version of Terragen available. The pro version (which I haven't tried) starts at $299. It's also very good: Ken Musgrave of Pandromeda used to say that Terragen's skies were pretty much state of the art. The free version generates some quite pretty scenes, but is a bit clunky to use and has some limitations.
Alessandro_AM's Infinito will give you landscapes in DAZ Studio but has, to my mind, some severe limitations (if I remember correctly, you can't save all the features of the scenes you generate).
Pandromeda's Mojoworld is stunningly powerful, intimidating to learn, and appears, sadly, to be dead. It performed better on PC than Mac anyway.
Eric Wenger, creator of the original Bryce, has his own landscape software called Artmatic Voyager. I'm told that in the right hands, the output is stunning. However, I'd also expect the learning curve to be fairly steep: Eric was always about the output and less about the interface and ease-of-use. Voyager starts at $199.
I haven't tried Blender, Shade, Maya, or any of the other more-or-less 'big metal' packages in the 3D space.
That's about it, as far as I know. Did I miss anything?