DAZ and many PAs - why you haven't had hundreds of dollars of my money...
DavidGB
Posts: 565
I've been wanting to post about this for well over a year, but up to now the times I've remembered haven't coincided with the times I'm up to typing more than a couple of words (at least coherently). But today's store releases have provided a reminder, and I think I can get through this today, so ...
This is addressed to DAZ, and to the PAs who are now only providing Iray materials in their products, not 3Delight ones too (some being longtime PAs who used to provide 3DL materials too but have stopped in many/all of their more recent products, some being newer PAs who have only ever provided Iray materials). Oh, and part of it is addressed to the PC+ people. You are losing many hundreds of dollars of sales you could be making to me.
Perhaps you think no DS user uses 3Delight for rendering any more, only Iray. Well I'm a long standing DS user (since DS 0.9 Public build ... checked, that's not a typo in the DS version number: 0.9, really), and I still use 3Delight, not Iray.
(If you're wondering why, in brief it's because I think Iray renders of props, vehicles, furniture, rooms etc with no people in are wonderful, very photorealistic; but the people are much less photorealistic which for me makes a jarring discord that's much worse than a 3Delight or Firefly render where the props and environment are not as photorealistic but do match the people. Every DS Iray render I see in product promos or galleries by any and everyone has people looking - to ME - one or more out of: worse than a reasonable 3DL render: like coloured wax, painted silicone, coloured cellulose acetate, anything but actually real skin (and hair, and many clothing materials), or the worst, which are actually the ones that are nearest to photoreal skin, but still only near enough to not so much fall as plummet screaming into the Uncanny Valley. (And what makes me wince most are products supposed to be Iray skin improvers with 'before' and 'with' side-by-side comparison render promos, where the 'with' look - to me - worse than the 'before'.) It all reminds me of my childhood in the 1960s: I could quite happily 'suspend disbelief' and be absorbed by a cartoon, or a show with puppets as the actors in model sets like Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet And The Mysterons (I even had a bit of a crush on one of the Spectrum Angels) - but in each case the 'actors' matched background and props for level of reality. But when it came to having cartoon characters superimposed on real world sets, or real actors in cartoon sets - Mary Poppins, Bedknobs and Broomsticks, et al - just no good for me: the mismatch created a jarring dissonance. OK for a one off comedy like Who Framed Roger Rabbit - but not for stories like I want to render. And that is what Iray renders are likte to me - cartoon characters or puppets or not-quite-lifelike-robots in real world sets. So about the only Iray renders of people I like at all are the arty portraits with a neutral background, no props, no furniture, no room or outside environment, nothing to clash with the person. And I don't do renders like that: I want to render stories of people in sets, with props, vehicles and all, like stills from a live action film - so Iray FOR ME is a no-no, at least until I see people producing renders with DS Iray that TO ME have the same level of reality of people (especially skin, but often also hair and a number of clothing materials too) N.B. How art looks to people is subjective; if DS Iray renders of people look great and as photoreaistic as the sets and props etc to you that's great - they just don't to ME. Any of them. And arguing about it is futile: thing look like what they look like - different to different people. I'm not saying anyone else should see the 'wrongness' the way I do; please don't tell me I should see them as wonderful when I don't.)
Now, obviously I'm not talking about a product where the whole point of the product is that it's a set of Iray shaders/materials or a to-Iray shader/material converter. That's fair enough. But I'm talking about the products that are - or include - props, rooms, furniture, weapons, clothing, hair, characters - all the things that COULD have 3Delight materials for surfaces in the product included, but don't and only have Iray ones.
Many of you - DAZ and PAs - are losing sales, at least from me. I DO buy a FEW things despite them not having 3DL materials, but it has to be something I really, really want for other special features it has - a much more accurate model of something real world than I already have, or function morphs I don't have in a version I already have, etc - for me to buy it despite the lack of 3Delight materials rather than just using (and converting if necessary) something I already have. And as I've been collecting this stuff, paid for and free, from many sites since 2004 I've already got some version of almost anything I need, and I can convert fairly easily anything I have from a Poser format to DS, and from any figure to any other figure (and, significantly, much more easily from a Poser material to 3Delight than Iray to 3Delight). By not including 3DL materials you are really raising the bar for what else your product must have/be for me to decide to spend money on it, and there are a LOT of products by a number of PAs I have not bought over the last 18 months because they didn't have 3Delight materials, only Iray ones, which I would have bought if they had had 3Delight materials too. And while most DAZ Originals have included 3Delight materials, even a few DAZ Originals have not and I haven't bought those when I would have if they had. Oh, and most aggravating to me even some PC+ releases have started not including 3Delight materials, and if that goes on I will be quitting the PC+ club too. And the number of items I have bought DESPITE them not having 3Delight materials is way, way smaller than the number of items I didn't buy BECAUSE there were no 3Delight materials where I would have bought them if there were.
Early last year (2016) I actually started keeping a running total of the costs of the products I DIDN'T buy because they DIDN'T include 3Delight materials which I WOULD have bought if they HAD. I gave up after just a month or two, at which point the total was already at 300 USD; by now it would be A LOT. And DAZ - it's not that I bought other products instead so you still got your share even if different PAs got my money. I bought everything else I wanted - all the stuff WITH 3Delight materials, and the products where materials are not an issue with the product - anyway. The money I didn't spend on the products that didn't have 3Delight material, only Iray, simply didn't get spent in the DAZ store at all; DAZ didn't get it, no DAZ PAs got it instead.
NOTE, they don't have to be particularly complex 3Delight materials - just basic ones that DO load all the appropriate image maps into 3Delight channels. I will almost certainly be tweaking your 3Delight materials, maybe even changing them to a different 3Delight shader (like the Amazing Skins shader for skins and some other organic materials). But, you see, while there are a variety of free and paid for products to convert surfaces with 3Delight materials to Iray, which pick up the usual maps in their 3Delight channels and put them in appropriate Iray channels, there're no such tools (or if there are I've not seen them) to convert the other way, and the next time I have to stick 3Delight shaders and ignore-maps 3Delight material settings on Iray surfaces and THEN have to go manually finding and reapplying all the specular maps lost because of the different specular map channel names in the two render engines I will scream. If you include basic 3Delight materials, my tweaking/changing can be as simple as applying some material presets (often involving different 3Deight shaders) I already have with 'ignore maps' checked; if you don't, then after applying 3Delight shader/material presets over your Iray-only supplied surfaces I have to spend ages finding and reapplying the maps afterwards. And I pay for stuff, rather than make it myself, so I don't have to spend time doing things like that - which is important to me as my specific disability means doing anything on my computer at all involves rapidly mounting pain. If your product only has Iray materials it means I know I will have to spend many minutes of pain just finding and reapplying your maps after changing to the 3Delight shader and settings I want, and I probably won't buy it; if it also includes even simple, basic 3Delight materials that load all the maps into 3Delight channels, then I will (if it's something I otherwise want, of course). Frankly, if buying your product means time converting the materials, where for me time=pain, then I might as well spend the time, and the pain, converting a version of whatever it is which I already have from Poser or another figure and save the money.
I'm sad that some of the newer PAs, who make what look like good quality products I'd otherwise buy, don't include and have never included 3Delight materials, so I've bought few or none of their products. I'm even sadder that certain longer standing PAs (I'll name no names) who I used to buy a lot from (in some cases practically everything they released) have stopped including 3Delight materials in many, sometimes all of their products since last year, so mostly I've stopped buying their new releases solely for this reason.
The bottom line is simply this: Basically, if you - PA and/or DAZ - can't be bothered to include 3Delight support in your products, I mostly can't be bothered to buy your products and convert them myself. And a number of PAs and DAZ have not had quite a few hundred dollars of my money over the last 18 months because you didn't bother with the 3Delight materials so I didn't bother buying your products. (And for those PAs who also sell at Renderosity and/or Renderotica - same for me as a customer there.) Plus just a few more no-3Delight-material PC+ products and I leave PC+.
Of course, if it's just me, it may not be worth it to you. But I do know I'm not the only DS user who - for varying reasons - still uses 3Delight and doesn't like (or simply can't use for hardware reasons) Iray. And only a small portion of the customer base ever posts in forums. So it may not be just my business you are losing.
Up to you.
Of course if someone produced a capable, couple-of-clicks Iray>3Delight material converter solution that picked up ALL the 3Delight-usable maps from the Iray materials and moved them to appropriate 3Delight channels, re-purposing maps where appropriate, and it didn't cost the Earth, that would incline me to buy more Iray-only-material products. Just like I'd buy more G3F/G3M/G8F pose sets if someone produced a Genesis 3 pose to Genesis 2 pose converter to go alongside the numerous converters going the other way. But unless that happens, IMO DAZ should make its mind up - DAZ supports Irsy AND 3Delight, or DAZ now supports Iray only. If the latter, stop including 3Delight materials in everything; if the former then ALL appropriate products in the DAZ store, DAZ Original or PA, should include at least basic 3Delight materials that apply all the maps, and if a new PA doesn't know and can't learn how to make them , only Iray materials, then someone-at-DAZ shold put them in for him/her/them.
(Please note: I will not be engaging in discussion about this. My disability means typing is painful, and a lot of the time I also can't even think clearly enough to make sense of posts I try to read or think of coherent replies, let alone type them due to my pain meds. And by the end of this post I'm likely to be unable to sensibly read a post or post again myself for days even if I wanted/needed to. Plus, viewing art is subjective, and telling me I should like Iray renders is futile. You do, I don't - subjective. For me there's nothing to discuss - I want and buy things with 3Delight materials, I don't want and mostly don't buy things that only have Iray materials, I can't be 'discussed' out of that, DAZ and PAs either provide at least basic 3Delight materials or not and I buy or don't as a consequence. But feel free to discuss amongst yourselves.)
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
7533 S Center View Ct #4664
West Jordan, UT 84084
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
tl;dr
Iray is the default renderer as of DS 4.8.
DavidGB - there is a free script to convert Iray to 3DL https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/139326/irayto3delight-conversion-script/p1 I have not used it yet, but it sounds promising.
I agree with what DavidGB said. I also realize that those of us who insist on 3Delight materials are a small minority. I think a PA mentioned 10% of their customers? So I don't expect to see any changes. I do want to thank the PAs who have continued to provide 3DL materials for their products.
My two cents, for what that is worth; DAZ probably would rather the PAs didn't include any materials for a particular render engine if they weren't going to be of the same quality as the ones for the other, so that's why they aren't including them. Now, if said vendor wanted to make them available, they could post them in the freebies section here.
I my self use Iray and 3delight but, most of the time i use 3Delight becoase of the fast render time so i too think all products should come in both Iray and 3Delight.
I understand some of the frustration, David. But as a 3Delight ONLY artist myself.... technology will move forward whether we move with it or not.
I've gotten very used to setting up my own 3DL materials. I just save them as a material preset once I'm happy with them for the next time I want to use the item, be it a skin or a prop or whatever.
I do appreciate the vendors who continue to include 3DL material settings... HOWEVER.... I have also run into cases where the included 3DL mats were utterly awful, and so I say "Thank you for including them," but with a caveat : I would rather set up my OWN 3Delight materials if the vendor is not familiar enough or comfortable enough with 3DL to do GOOD materials.
But that's just me. I have different reasons for not moving to Iray. Mostly summed up in one word : NVIDIA. But I also recognize that those of us who are 3DL only are going to only get fewer and fewer as time goes on, and eventually there will be NO inclusion of any 3DL materials in products that are newly released. Either we learn how to set up our own materials, or we stop participating in the hobby.
For me - I've been setting up my own materials for years - long before Iray - simply because it's such a rare thing that I'm happy with the vendor's material set up. This is NOT against the vendor, I just have a specific look that I aim for in my renders, and I simply prefer my own style of material set up, so I usually end up adjusting or completely re-doing the material set up on things ayway.
Anyhow. That's just my feelings. I appreciate the vendors who continue to offer 3DL mats, but I recognize that it IS extra work and extra time, and I would rather set up my own materials if the vendor in question is unfamiliar or not comfortable enough with the 3DL engine to get good quality materials set up. That's all.
I would like both Iray and 3Delight going forward. I will be upgrading my rig in the next year, and may go Ryzen/Vega. Since Iray is supposedly Nvidia-only, I'd be wanting 3Delight. I can certainly see where it may go out of style eventually, but I also own a large number of 3Delight shaders, and I'd really like to continue using those. Of course, if these shaders could be updated free of charge to Iray, then I might change my mind.
You don't need an nVidia card to use Iray and if you make big complex scenes they may not fit on the graphics card anyways.
People often talk about how much faster 3dl is, but that's only if you aren't doing photorealistic stuff (or close).
Try making a 'simpler' Iray scene: no translucency, no refraction (use opacity tricks like with 3dl), and avoid emissive surfaces.
And shut off the blending/blur so it's as sharp as possible.
What is the blending/blur you refer to Will?
Pixel filtering
++ No way to like a post I see here, so consider your post liked.
DavidGB Said, "the people are much less photorealistic which for me makes a jarring discord that's much worse than a 3Delight or Firefly render where the props and environment are not as photorealistic but do match the people. Every DS Iray render I see in product promos or galleries by any and everyone has people looking - to ME - one or more out of: worse than a reasonable 3DL render: like coloured wax, painted silicone,"
Have to agree, the Parade of Painted Dolls I see on my Facebook group is depressing. I never bash anyone there for it, because it seems more the limits of the medium than the artist; but they are certainly not more realistic.
I find it not troublesome to even use mac for some really simple scenes :)
Blackbird: I don't think it's a limitation of the medium, exactly.
The problem with photorealistic rendering is that amateur work looks very different than amateur drawing.
I mean, if someone presents a drawing where the perspective is all flat and confused and the hands are sausage bundles and the coloring is inconsistent, you can go 'ok, that needs work.'
But if you see a render with perfect perspective and realistic lighting, most people dont realize that the vacant expression, poor composition, and flat sterile lighting are all a failure of skill -- they assume 'cgi is just like that.'
And, worse, the artist themself might find it hard to understand why it's lacking and how to learn.
I suspect that part of Blackbird's complaint has as much to do with the makeups supplied with the character sets as it does with other aspects of the character. That's why I dislike one store requiring such sets with characters sold there; I'd rather not make them at all.
Ouch, that hurt, but only because it's true. As a recent semi-aspiring 3D 'artist' who's guilty of all the faults you cited (although I'd like to think I'm gradually improving), I felt that.