Amature and Pro Versions of DS.
Blackbirdx61
Posts: 300
I've Said this before but I will say it again, I've been with DAZ since 3.X and I barely understand the application anymore. All the IRAY Jargon, the 30 layers of Shaders all the other nonsense. While Im sure your creating quite a nice studio for professionals who have the time and energy to learn all the Jargon and Tweeks. IMHO your leaving the Amature Audiance that got you started in the Dust. What used to take a few minutes now takes hours. What used to be an enjoyable way to spend an afternoon, is not an Excercise in utter Frustration.
I personally would very much like to see an Amature version built around the 4.7 Patch with NO IRAY at all, it would be wonderful; at least make the 4.7 patch available you all used to allow Achieval Down Loads. Believe me if I could Download a clean 4.7 Patch I would roll back in a heart beat and never look back. I can live without Gen 8.
To any other Amatures who feel as I do Please like this thread. Pls let DAZ know that I am not alone in my utter frustration with the direction they are going.
Thanks BB.
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Comments
You can still use 3delight to render. All the new features don't prevent you from doing things the same way you've always done them, do they? Just use what you are used to and ignore the rest.
Actually they do, The All the New Mats have multitiered Iray Shaders that come out either Radioactive in 3DL or look like they where shot in a cave in IGL. Even using the lighting that comes with the scenes; Ie not my own mish mash; that I would understand better. As everything in now geared towards IRAY, its not something that is all that easily ignored. Buy a new Charactor its going to have IRAYed skin. Take the sample Below, the IGL looks like it was shot in a cave, the 3DL is positively radio active. I'm sorry but you cant just do what you've always done. If I could I would have no issue at all. The only thing that looks half right anymore is the BGL. That needs shading work in PS or MS5 but its not producing these absurdities.
Honestly I've invested several years and thousands of Dollars in this hobby, and DAZ and Im close to just throwing up my hands and saying Enough. I have been pretty loyal to this app, hope that registars someplace with the Devs.
Most of DAZ's products would continue to be Iray so you would still have to do the conversions. By the way that white skin problem is from AoA's SSS shader, a 3Delight shader. You spent a lot of money so why don't you spend a little time to learn the program.
It's just like people go from playing simple card games on the street to trying to land a 1.2km sniper shot in a realistic 3D game. You can never expect to be an expert in anything if you just spend 10 minutes everyday on it, 3DL or Iray
The technology moves forward and so do the people playing with it. You can always do the old thing you like, but hey the fruit of getting an actual good render in Iray is gonna keep you going forward! If you are willing to spend time on it that is...
I always kinda hated 3Delight back in the day. Trying to get good looking shadows was an exercise in frustration. I always ended up rendering every scene twice (let me tell you how time consuming that was in the dual core processor era) and then chopping them up in photoshop to get one usable image out of the deal. And even after that I still needed to paint over parts of the image to get things like hair looking decent.
There is still wealth of content that has 3Delight material settings. You just need to look at the end of the contents list on the store page. It will tell you if it is 3Delight, Iray, or both. Yes there is content coming out now that is Iray only, but that can be avoided easily.
Pretty much where I'm at James.
EcVh0 - as I said I'm an Amature, If I did not have to make a living otherwise I might have time to Master the Technology.
One of the Selling points of DAZ these days is Marvel used it to Render for Iron Man. Sounds cool at first; its like Driving Dale Jr's Car from Daytona, cept when you actually get in a car designed to go 200mph. Point is at some point; and I think DAZ is well past it; a product becomes a professional tool and unsuitable for amatures; but as DAZ still adverts heavily to amatures and wants them to come into the hobbby; I think its past time they rethink if their present product is something an amature can be reasonably expected to use. I could not begin to land a 600 meter sniper shot; but again thats a very high level of skill; well past what one would consider a pass time. Fortunately I have some real life experiance with a 105mm and you dont have to be too accurate with those. : )
Can an amateur use a hammer to drive a nail?
Trust me, you do own the amature version as long as your don't install any more plugins!
Daz Studio was not used in final shots on thsoe films, as far as I am aware. The quote you are referring to was about using it (or at least the Daz figures) in the preViz/pre Production stages. DS is not, and does not claim to be, on the level of tools like 3D Studio or Maya.
Therea re a great number of 3Delight shaders avaialble which can fairly simply be applied to models if the Iray settings don't work and there are no native 3Delight shaders - in general, switch to the Surface Selection tool, click on the target area, double-click the preset for loading a suitable material (a fabric for example). For things like askin another option can be to apply the Iray settings, then go to a 3Delight skin you liked, hold down ctrl (cmd on the Mac), double-click the preset, and in the dialogue select the Ignore option for maps.
Thanks Rich, as always your guidance is helpful and appreciated. BB
Let me try to make my point a little better one last time, maybe some Dev will see this and maybe something will sink in ...
Just as your not playing chess if your still thinking Bishops move through the corners, and Knights do that little L. thing; Your not making Art if your thinking about your Tools. (See Linda Attached) When I pick up a Pencil, I dont think about whether 1 need a 4B or a 2H, or an HB; I dont think about whether I need a Derwent or a PrismaColor. I have learned that craft and I am free to make art; my tools are transparent to me. Just as my Mom's Oils are Transparent to her. Just as Bishops through the corner is to Kasparov.
Every Bell, Whistle, Dial, Setting, Check box you add is a step away from that Ideal, and another thing that forces me to Think about DAZ Studio and not about making ART. I dont care what you do in the background thats Transparent. But as an Artist I dont want to ever have to think about my tools. Im not going to look back on this weekend thinking Oh Wow I learned so much about Shaders this weekend; no Im going to look back on 10+ manhours wasted not making art while I wrestled with the nuts and bolts of this program; being forced to learn something, I dont care to know, and something this program used to do quite elegantly in the background. Sure thats hard to monatize and now you can sell page upon page of shader sets; but it pushes away from making art.
I would love for each Dev to have over his desk a placard that says your user is an Artist! because I have no doubt most of them are not; and Devs being Devs they cant wait for the next OS, the Next I phone the Next toy to play with the buttons on. This app is not a toy to play with for me; its a tool for making Art; but it gets harder and harder to think of this studio that Way. BB.
Not to sure what your trying to say!
I'm a programmer Daz3D PA our my artist which I pay money for, I have nothing to do with 3D art as such, I just use Daz as a tool to speed up production or else it would take years if you draw it all yourself. Daz is a simple & cheap tool to use compared 3DS Max & you will get no where with that. Daz has differnet skins from simple easy to use to pro looking...
Lil confused by what your saying here myself,
Gen X: I'm a programmer - BB re: So maybe we are just coming from different worlds here.
Gen X Daz3D PA our my artist which I pay money for, I have nothing to do with 3D art as such, - BB Re: Still one would think you would understand an artist wants their tools as transparent as possible. Your a programmer, No doubt your a long way from getting "Hello world" to pop on your screen; you've interalized one or more languages so you can focus on writing the code. Just as an Artist wants to internalize what he or she can expect out of ones tools.
Gen X: I just use Daz as a tool to speed up production or else it would take years if you draw it all yourself.
BB Re I agree with you there, First and formost I see DAZ as a compositional tool - It allows me to study compositions, Points of View, and other options much more efficiently than thumbnailing or any other Traditional method I know.
Gen X: Daz is a simple & cheap tool to use compared 3DS Max & you will get no where with that.
BB re: Simple is a Relative term, and Cheap from a corperate view point probably so; but as I have spent far more money on DAZ content than I have spent on every other form of Software, Office, Gaming et al combined. No its not cheap, not from my perspective and I expect alot of users share that; It is an investment, but it is an investment in making art; not an investment in playing with the next dial the Devs can come up with.
Daz has differnet skins from simple easy to use to pro looking...
Its not about the skins, its about the use, a simple workspace is of no value if the higher end tabs are mandatory. Im quite sure the IGL was hosed by the last patch because I use it extensively; and have yet to get a useable image out of it since that latest patch; will that be adressed I doubt it; just another bit of compatabilty lost to IRAY. See the Lovely Radioactive skin tone on Nails shows in the Current IGL; I first rendered that scene in 4.8; where it was just fine.
I've been with DAZ since 3.X I've seen the evolution towards ever greater complexity to the point only a professional could possibly have time to master this program which is why I started this thread in the first place. Obviously all the people who have nothing else to do disagree with me.no suprise, But I think your deluding yourself if you think a person with Zero experiance can just download this program today and get anywhere with it, not in its current form.
Keep expanding Make a pro version, great; but dont forget the ones the brung yeah to the Dance. Im an Artist, not a Geek;. I turn up DAZ because I want to spend some time making some art; not wresting with the next round of bugs, features and featured bugs. When the Hair of a toon I have used Hundreds of times Since 4.1 will not even Render in BGL because the engine can no longer see it; just got lost in the last IRAY tweek; or the IGL suddenly renders a scene/set created months ago with Radio active skin. Im sorry that does not leave me happy. And the people that are telling me that you can just ignore it all and just continue to use the lower end of the program; are obviously not doing that, or they would be as frustrated as I am!
All I ever wanted out of DAZ was to get exactly what I see on the screen, Sans GUI onto a JPG or PNG for further work in MS5 or PS. That should be so simple but it is not anymore, not even close. I did not want to spend my weekend wrestling with these problems, this application or on this board; I wanted to make some ART that plans just been shot to hell Thankyou.
I will say I am a little disappointed that there seems to be no response from other more casual users; but maybe I am the last of those. BB.
I don't think you're the last casual user, I think it's that many have moved beyond the relatively simplistic nature of 3Delight since Iray has been added; that and most probably don't come to the forums on a regular basis (if at all) and so haven't seen your post. Like you, I started out with 3.x, but have seen that it's possible to hide most of the things I don't use so they don't interfere with my work.
I think they are looking for a UI like what is being done in Poser 12 Beta in DAZ Studio!
May have to look at that beta, thanks N.
Hear hear..I am newish to Daz, and every time I have an idea of what I want to create with a new figure or scene I bought, it's SO difficult to just DO it!!! Lights, depth of field, render settings..some days I don't even create because I don't know how to get the look I'm going for and get frustrated. I kind of wish there were an amateur and a professional version we could switch between, maybe simple menus and advanced options?
There already is a UI configuration option that will hide most of this; I just don't remember which one it is, since it reminds me too much of Poser.
It has taken me a while to figure out what IGL means, Intermediate OpenGL. If you are rendering with this all surfaces for all models should be set to the default shader as it can't handle the extra "bells and whistles" of the other shaders. And you are thinking about what pencil to use just not at a conscious level because after years of learning it comes natural. Want to get good at any art form you need to pratice and learn.
Thanks Jen.
Except in that the IGL was rendering that exact toon, in that exact scene without those issues not 6 months ago. So its obviuos that it is not seeing that toon and those shaders the same way, just as Claudia's hair just disappears on Render even in BGL under the current patch. Claudia is one of my oldest toons, there is nothing about her shaders that should be confusing. I did ultimately after several wasted hours recover that and now I know how to make her work again.
I really wanted to make a simple, genuinely meant product suggestion. I have to admit I was unprepared for the response by some of the Techno-Trolls and I have let myself get drawn into an argument I did not intend.
I can only hope that some Dev will see it take the suggestion seriously; which is all I wanted in the first place.
There are a couple of notes in the change log relating to OpenGL - I'm not sure if either could be involved in the changes you see. However, it is clear that OpenGL is still receiving attention so you could report your issue and hopefully, if it is a bug rather than a bug-fix, it will receive some attention.
Performed some cleanup of OpenGL draw code on light nodes
DAZ Studio : Incremented build number to 4.9.3.146
Fixed an issue that prevented OpenGL renders from containing alpha; saved scenes that render via one of the OpenGL options and relied on the viewport color as a background color will need to be updated by the user to include a backdrop consisting of the desired color
DAZ Studio : Incremented build number to 4.9.3.160
Thanks Rich. Very busy the next few Days IRL but I may do that. BB.