OKAY Gamer types and Admins, please see this (Game Characters creation in DS)
wancow
Posts: 2,708
I'm one of those guys who understands Copyright... It's there to protect artists from jackass thieves who think the world owes them a living. So, knowing this, I have an inckling of what kind of response DAZ will have to this idea, but they may surprise me...
These meshes are available thanks to Ghastly:
http://www.sharecg.com/v/65999/browse/21/DAZ-Studio/MakeHuman-Rigid-Rigged-for-DAZ-Studio
http://www.sharecg.com/v/66007/gallery/5/3D-Model/Low-Polygon-MakeHuman-Proxies-in-Genesis-Pose
As I understand it, they are public domain... though I'm not entirely 100% sure, I'm 99% sure.
One of the nice things about DAZ Studio 4.5 is that the transfer utility simply works! And it works very, very well.
The lowest polygon meshes i have successfully used the Transfer Util to rig using the Genesis base. Not only that, but you can also use the morphs Genesis has to push those meshes into new shapes.
People have been asking about using Genesis for Gamining, and the truth is, it's probably not all that great for gaming as it's still quite high poly. A figure that's less than 2K polygons such as a couple of those above that is already UVMapped... those are great for a variety of things.
I am tempted to do the UVS on at least one of them to match V4... but that's another project I don't have time for at the moment.
The question DAZ needs to answer is this one: if those meshes are pushed into shape by Genesis morphs, will DAZ take issue with that? The figures do NOT fit exactly, of course... and the truth is, Morphs can easily be made for them... Game Guys should probably do that...
But the question still needs to be answered. IMHO, these meshes might hold the solution for Game Guys to use DAZ Studio to quickly make Game Characters...
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Comments
Understanding copyright and pushing info to users that could care less about it are two totally different things.
As someone that does addons for games, I personally feel "game guys" have no business trying to develop a game if they can't develop their own assets, indie or not. I also feel that DS should not be used in any aspect of game development because the main reason to use it is to rip/export DAZ assets for use in other apps such as Maya, 3DS, Mixamo, 3DXchange5, iclone, etc, There are way to many unethical users online ripping mesh from games and other apps for their "game development" and 5 minutes of upload fame to illegal file sharing sites (I found a site the other day that actual pays it's members for the most amount of mesh uploaded, unbelievable),
That being said, as far as using DAZ morphs on the make human models, I would think that is a no-no for anything other than personal use. Not sure how genesis works, but for any morphs I make for poser it usually involves using mesh from the original figure exported as an .obj, so if that is the case, you are still using DAZ assets.
makehuman is a nice program, have it installed and use it often, but don't feel it should interact with DS in any way. There are much easier ways to get a low poly figure in DS within DS
I'm pretty sure you're correct about the morph issue... I just want a clear answer.
So far as this mesh, it's a nice mesh. For my purposes I'll probably use it a lot for backgrounds.
But I'm not understanding your last item. Building a low poly figure is fine and dandy, and I'm mostly agreeing with you regarding content, but it took me all of five minutes to transfer this 1.7k poly mesh to the Genesis rig and maybe another 20 to make five usable morphs for it. I don't see how it gets any easier than that....
Before you assume anything, I suggest you contact the Make Human website.
http://www.makehuman.org/
Only they can answer your questions regarding the actual mesh.
As for the rest, morphs are only one part of what gamers would be using. DAZ also owns the rights to the rigging and the technology that creates the rigging. DAZ gives Studio away for free (at least for the moment) but the EULA only grants the right to create 2d art and animation.
If you wish to use the DAZ assets to create games, you will have to buy a gaming license. There is an Indie and a Professional license. This license only covers DAZ Original Products. If you wish to use a morph created by a PA, you would have to buy a separate game license from each PA if they offer one.
Most game creators find it much less of a legal quagmire to create their own assets than to try and slog their way through the legal swamp that could end up killing their project.
Thanks a lot wancow.
I thought you can only apply genesis morphs if your vertex positions match that of genesis. Is this not true?
That would solve many problems for me, I would like to use custom proxies, some with even more vertices in certain areas. I thought this is not possible because of required vertex position match.
you can bake morphs, but it really doesn't work all that well with this figure:
http://www.sharecg.com/v/67971/view/21/DAZ-Studio/Make-Human-Low-Poly-Mesh-Genesis-Rig
Not an expert, but I would immediately echo what icprncss has said—as soon as you transfer that genesis rig, you are using DAZ assets and need one of the two licenses
http://www.daz3d.com/indie-game-developer-license
http://www.daz3d.com/commercial-game-developer-license
and then the morphs, even though they aren't working on the original mesh, each need a game license from DAZ or the applicable PA.
Ah I see, the trick is to treat the proxy as cloth.
That way you can export a "baked" morph, but how do you export the morphs as morphs? Such that you can have a slider in your game and e.g. continuously change from M5 to V5?
[The same question applies to genesis cloth in general. Should try to export some with a morphs enabled figure. I'm not that optimistic that I will be happy with the result. Anyone has experience with that?]
if the rig is the issue, then there's a whole lot of stuff that cannot be sold or distributed outside of DAZ3D.com that is already. Mostly clothing.
you do not need a game development license to use and render Daz content in other programs so puzzled by your comment FMSC designs?
I have been very excited of late over the facial animation of Daz characters in iClone after beta testing the update and can assure you 99% of users are intending to render movies, not create games!
Most Max/Maya users of Daz content do renders too, there is not this huge illegal gaming market everyone seems to be scared off, for a start how could you even market and sell a game made of illegal content?
For those wishing to do games, both Daz and Reallusion offer content license options.
You can indeed model and then rig your own mesh using Daz studio, nowhere does it say you cannot redistribute that
like modelling something in Hexagon, Carrara or wings3D, you are just using it as a modelling/rigging program, using an existing figure's bones as a clone is a no-no though unless it is a support asset for that figure, so transfer tool rigging is out of the question
You would need to use figure set up tools and create your own morphs.
Yes, it works even to export morphs!!!
Strange thing is, if you export cloth only the active morphs are exported (something I want to have for the figure, but it seems not possible for the figure). So the missing morphs are created on export.
But since I give it a list of morphs for the figure, all in the list but not active are missing. I think this can be considered one more bug in the exporters, but I'm just so happy that it works at all.
I do not plan to use this low poly models, much to low poly for my use case. But this means I can take genesis, build a high quality reduced version and even a version with more polys than genesis and treat them as cloth (but will have to check if quality really holds up if doing this).
With standard LOD technique this was not possible, because vertices must be on same position as in genesis. This takes away some important design freedoms.
I have a game license, so I'm even allowed to do that ;)
The morphs, rigging and uv mapping are all DAZ', or the PA's, so you can't use them in a 3d game or application for distribution except by having and using them in accordance with a Game Developer License, where available.
So far everything works perfect, except:
The pose controls for the head have no effect on the proxy, e.g. 'Mouth Open' or 'Brow Up'. All others work.
Anybody has a solution for that?
[Edit: some of the head morphs do also not work, e.g. 'Eyes Height'. That probably means back to square one for me :( ]
Ok, small step forward:
- Set "Source Morphs" on "Morph Targets"
- Set "Auto Follow" with property editor for all those morphs (made a script for that)
Remaining Issue:
[solved] - few head related morphs still not working (e.g. tongue)
[solved] - inner part of mouth and teeth are not mapped correctly
[Edit:] For my experiments I load genesis onto genesis, so there should be a perfect mapping
[Edit2:] Loading proxy with mouth open solves the mouth inner part not mapped problem. Tongue moving now too, yeah.
[Edit3:] Final tip: remove the eyeballs from the head in genesis and the proxy, then eye lid and eyeball will be separated cleanly. I have a proxy now the follows everything I tested. Now on to trying loading real proxies and not genesis itself.
Made a little script that sets all morphs to auto follow. If anybody wants it I can upload it somewhere.
Maybe I missed it but what app or game engine are you trying to import into and what export format from DS are you using?
@icprncss:
Game engine is my own, based on ogre3d. For that I export to blender and from there to ogre3d format. From DS I export to collada and fbx. I use fbx for the morphs, because the collada file exported from DS including morphs will not import in blender. So I load the collada file and merge it with the morphs from the fbx file. (for fbx import you need a free addon from blender forum).
However, certain morphs move the skeleton in DS, but not in the fbx export. So I'm writing scripts for blender solving such issues. That means to get the exact result like in DS I have to export each morph individually as collada and compute a corrected morph, and the skeleton difference and save that as pose. Then I combine everything into a single mesh. I still have some manual steps, so more scripts should be written. However, I hope Daz improves the export so I will wait a little, not that I write that many scripts and then daz improves the exporter such that some are no longer needed.
I'm not familiar with the ogre3d engine. Unfortunately, the FBX exporter has always been a bit wonky. I never got decent results with it. Collada gave better results but was not dependable.
Ogre3d is only a rendering engine (so it replaces direct opengl or directx usage), so you have to create your own game engine using it.
What I hate about DS 4.5 is that collada for genesis is ok (if ignoring morph export), but Gen4 export is broken. Hope they fix at least the Gen4 export.
Gen 4 has 79k polygons. Genesis has 19k
DirectX does more than render. It does sound too.
Yes, should have written Direct3D to be precise. But who does want to run on windows only today?
Back to Topic:
After more experiments eyes and tongue do not follow nicely in extreme poses. Since it does not even work if you map genesis to genesis, I think it is not possible to get perfect match with this method and current DS 4.5.
I dunno, with the new chromebook out, I'm not sure Macs are long for this world...
Linux/Unix will win (there are more android devices than windows machines already).
Server marked is ruled by Linux/Unix since ever.
Mobile now too.
Desktop will be going Linux/Unix too or die. Mac OSX is Unix, new Linux variants keep coming (chromebook best selling notebook on amazon).
I hate Iphone, but Mac OSX is solid (Unix), devices are too expensive, but you can run it on other devices or in VM ;)
Death to M$!!!!!
Sorry, hate M$ that much that I could not resist.
Ogre3d is only a rendering engine (so it replaces direct opengl or directx usage), so you have to create your own game engine using it.
What I hate about DS 4.5 is that collada for genesis is ok (if ignoring morph export), but Gen4 export is broken. Hope they fix at least the Gen4 export.
Genesis works but earlier Generations don't. I wonder if the exporter is having an issue with the legacy rigging of the Gen 4 figures...
Do you have a copy of DS3 or DS3A?
Yes I have DS3 around. But it's just one workaround more, there are too many already. But I never tried to convert Gen4 to TriAxWeights, maybe that helps.
[Edit:]
Back to topic: I should note that the cases that make problems are rare, e.g. Satsuki for Genesis pops eyes out of the head if eyeball ist rotated. But for "normal" morphs it works nicely.
Note: if you export the stuff created that way, the proxy and the figure behave the same way. So these problems exist only in DS.
I get similar "errors" like the eyeball in DS if the skeleton in blender is not adapted to the body morph (e.g. Satsuki), so maybe that is what happens in DS: the skeleton for the figure is adapted to the morph but not the proxy. I set everything to auto-follow, even exotic stuff like OriginXControl, EndXControl and OrientXControl.
Anybody has an idea what I should adapt with my script to have the proxy and figure behave the same way? Since it seems to work for cloth, there must be some way (or does the Transfer Utility not really work with morphs like Satsuki and extreme poses?).
I think I have to give up this approach. The collada exporter is just much too buggy.
I thought I could export perfectly, but that was just luck. I have cases that are identical, work inside DS, but if exporting one is OK and the others are a complete mess (skeleton is completely f*cked, vertex groups are also wrong).
The current Daz collada exporter has so many problems, and without any statement from Daz if they even plan to fix the mess, I can just not trust Daz Studio anymore and will do all important steps in blender from now on.
[Edit1:] Coolest thing is: in the collada export the bone axis do not bend along the limbs for certain body parts. And even cooler: in fbx its also that way but for even more bones, so skeletons in fbx and collada are different!!!
[Edit2:] With fbx the problem with the f*cked exports seems solved, but the problem described in Edit1 s*cks. Since the same case gives a complete mess with collada I hope fbx exporter is better and this was not just luck. I now have a script in blender that fixes the genesis skeleton, so I now have my own genesis skeleton that does not have all these problems.
It is a complete joke that we have to define a fixed genesis skeleton because the exported one s*cks so much. That means most of the stuff I create will not be compatible with genesis from Daz. But I tried long enough, now I just don't care anymore. Giving up Daz compatibility and making blender the only master just solves too many problems.