Welding verticies and UV maps
mindsong
Posts: 1,701
In hexagon, I understand that once a UV map exists for a model (imported OBJ in my case - hair or clothing), if you apply certain changes, specifically welding two separate mesh elements together (hair segment to skullcap), even if not changing the vertex locations, the UV maps will need to be re-created from scratch.
Has anyone figured out a way to do this, or better yet...:
Can you (carefully) weld verticies together in the Carrara modelling room and still have the existing UV maps preserved? (e.g. import the OBJ, weld, save/export)
If not, is there any way to do this in any (relatively affordable?) tool?, or even manually editing an obj file if you know which overlapping verticies are involved? Blender? Wings? any of the UV-mapping tools?
thanks,
--ms
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I have preserved UV's adding thickness and bridging so it varies, welding seems to do more in Carrara vertex room at least not all programs
I just did some tests and it varied bridging some parts moved others remained in place on UV map, Filleting added bits if wrapped they overlapped but oriiginal UV remained welding actually kept my UV in the tests I did even adding new polygons so there is a lot more to it than meets the eyes
Interesting info!, thanks for running those tests and sharing your results.
I've got a few tests to try as well, and wanted to draw any insights from the brain-trust in here before digging in. I figured bridging would break the UV's too, so you've already added something to check out to my list.
(sparse minutes available to invest in 3D for the immediate future, but I'm sneaking in now and then and setting my ducks in a row for when life frees me up - it's killing me!)
cheers,
--ms
I'm curious about this too, since I also was under the belief the vertices could not be modified.
I have read there is a way to save UVs and apply to a different mesh. The overall shape of the meshes needs to be the same, however, the poly count and vertices can be different. Its typically used to take texturing from a high resolution mesh and apply it to a lower resolution version.
@Wendy - Are you using Ultimate Unwrap 3D ... if so, do you think it would work for this?
I use the repaint in UUW3D to transfer textures to new UV maps a lot since I learnt of that feature.
Initially to Genesis 3 but now mosty to models I cleaned up in Zbrush that end up with having to have new UV maps as a result of Zremeshing.
I have yet to discover any app that will apply the UV map of one object to another, such a thing would be awesome, the best I can do is repaint the textures to a new image map that fits the alternative UV.
what will do what you describe is Xnormal
but only one non overlapping map
DAZ figures mostly havs several
Wendy, maybe you know - am I understanding that the "DAZ Texture Atlas" feature in DazStudio can be used to consolidate UV maps to get around the multiple UV-map issue?
I've never used it but recall that the description implies that this is a feature - esp. for games that require only one UV?
re: UUW3D is it fairly sane in the re-mapping process - drag/rotate/resize sort of thing? I could see doing hair meshes being a repetitive pain, but if each re-map step is simple, maybe that's an option for me. I can repeat 'simple' a lot, (e.g. mixamo downloads...). Repetitive complex hacking gets old and I always seem to blow it somewhere...
--ms
I like UUW3D because I can easily drag any UV islands around and resize rotate as I wish unlike Carrara which freezes up on anything too highpoly.
It has so many little tools including 3D paint!!!!
and lots of export import plugin options for the 32bit (I use 64 otherwise) can get C4D and even nif files from my Skyrim game in.
A great polyreduce (decimator) function too.
There are better UV mappers around but its all the little extras it does I like.
You mean like UV Layout? I think UUW3D will be OK for what I want. It's a big improvement over Hexagon's mapping functions anyway.
I actually originally bought it for the polyreduce feature on FBX files keeping rigging and UV's for iClone.
As DAZ studio Decimator is limited to what you can get in studio and Carara and Hexagon demimation destroys UV as well as rigging.
oh and your Mixamo figures will keep their rigging and animation too and in fact I use it to fix a lot of FBX files for Carrara.
I want to see what happens if I convert a geograft to a wearable item and then weld it myself in the Vertex Modeling room. I know the command I'll need is Target Weld, but what I don't know is how to make the two objects show up in the VM room at the same time so I can select each pair of vertices to be welded. How can I get two meshes to appear together in the VM room?
Thanks for the info - the FBX fixing is especially interesting, considering how useless the DS BVH functions are these days - I'm trying to get a motion workflow under control and FBX seems the way to go (long-term standards), but everyone has a different way of dealing with FBX and I keep getting beaten back by some failing of some sort. Tips like this are priceless.
cheers,
--ms
me curious too...
--ms
You can have both in the VM room by using Copy/Paste, Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V. Hope that is what you want. What it will do is to add the other polymesh. You can then do your welding... I've done it before.
Thanks for responding to this question.
So... you could weld existing UV mapped hair strips to a UV mapped skull-cap and not have to redo the UVs of either?
even if it meant copying and pasting the same meshes 'back in place' to trick the editor into allowing it, that would be plenty handy for what I'm trying to do...
am I 'hearing' you right?
cheers,
--ms
You can copy/ paste models, (or parts) from one Vertex model, to another vertex model
If you weld two objects together,. you'll need to UV map that "new object".
If you look at any hair model (in the vertex modeler) you'll see that the bands of mesh hair are simply placed in position.
the skull cap isn't connected to any of the hair meshes.
it doesn't need to be,. and it's easier to work with it that way.
An object can be made up of several separate polymeshes,. with different shading domains, and different UV mapping. but are treated as One model.
It makes a lot of sense to work this way,. dealing with different parts is easier,. than a single more complex object
If you look at any figure,. the Eyes will be separate meshes,. sometimes several meshes for the cornea/iris etc..
look at clothing ,. you'll see that Buttons and Buckles are not connected to the main mesh.
Buildings / vehicles, etc,.. all use the same concept.
maybe if you give some info about what you're trying to do, we can find a different solution.
I'm still trying to overcome the problem that geografts make Carrara's rendering engine go crazy when texturing. I was hoping it would be possible to weld geografts onto the main model without losing UV maps or textures, so you end up with one mesh, properly textured.
In Blender I can do this very easily and all textures are preserved--but then I have the problem of how do you get the model back into Carrara. So I was hoping to find a way to accomplish the same thing natively inside Carrara.
@3Dage
We know that VWD binds (or can bind) separate mesh parts together when doing dynamics, so buttons or hair pieces don't slid off their bases...
The DS dynamics engine doesn't have that great feature, so I'm trying to 'glue' mesh parts together. I'm looking for a way to glue such parts on the base mesh without destroying the existing UVs, and hoping there's an editor or trick that will let us do this.
I appreciate that any major changes to a mesh have to affect the UV mapping, but I'd think if we're simply binding 'like' vertecies rather than adding or subtracting them, that it might be plausible to re-use the UV shapes and maps.
Still optimistic...
cheers and thanks for the response,
--ms
What you're dealing with is a "conforming figure",. which isn't just a simple 3D model.
would that it were so simple,...
It's,.. complicated.
it's got rigging and probably some morphs, and it's not simply parented to the figure parts,. it's conforming it's own skeleton,. to the main figures skeleton, so that it follows any poses or animation.
The problem is Carrara's interpreting of the geograft product,... The geograft stuff works as expected in Daz Studio,.
Carrara hasn't been developed to handle that properly.
I've avoided the geograft stuff,. since I see it as a "cool" thing in a program like DS,. where you don't have the ability to create, model or edit a figure, including adding whatever appendages you see fit,. and I suppose it's always Handy to buy "off the shelf",. if it fit's your purpose, and saves you time.
If it saves time,. !
if you spend time trying to get something broken, working correctly,. you may learn some stuff about how it works/ how it's built,. but you're not getting where you wanted to be. rendering or animating.
In theory , If you have two simple objects ,. each with a different shading domain, which is UV mapped
if you weld them ,. the UV layout for each shading domain "should" remain the same.
When you're working with a model which has morphs ,. those would be broken,. since the geometry has changed.
if you're working with a rigged model,. adding/deleting any geometry would effect the rigging / weightmapping, and would break morphs, even if it left the UV's unaltered.
have you tried importing the model as an OBJ ( to keep the UV's) ,. adding some bones, and simply parenting that to the figure,. (depending on what the Geograft is),. you should be able to parent it to a Body part,. Hip, Head, etc.
If Blender can import Daz3D figures and work with Geograft's ,. and you can use it,. why not.
or,.. use DS,. ,. whatever works for you ,. works for you.
You should be able to export an OBJ from Blender,. which Carrara can import,. although,.. that's just the model,. no morphs or rigging.
you could rig it in carrara,. or,. (depending on the figure),. use the DazStudio transfer utility, to add the rigging.
In Carrara you can make your own stuff,. and add rigging to it,. so a figure could have Horns or additional arms/legs/heads/ tentacles, added anywhere you like
how it's UV'd or textured,... Whether it's a Prop model, parented to the figure,. or a Rigged model, conforming to a figure,. is up to you.
Sorry for the long winding slightly rumbly reply.
hope some of it makes sense :)
I need to test more but it looks like repair mesh in edit mode in Blender preserves the UV mapping too, if you want to use Blender that is,
it's User Interface certainly is not anything like Carrara's 
To get this capability, I'll happily use blender for that purpose. Hell, I own and am awful at using at least 10 full-fledge silver bullet 3D packages... What's another? I've used Blender for some one-offs in the past (following tutorials to convert things, etc.) and really don't think it's that bad. Carrara 'thinks' more like I do, so I prefer it to get things done i there. (more tests... someday something really cool)
Right now I'm spending my few spare cycles pulling Mixamo mocaps in native formats for my favorite figures. Thanks for digging into blender to see if it can help with this. I hope I can make it up to you with a howto on the entire workflow I'm settling on. Most of it is in place, just pulling my hair out trying to keep my dynamic-based hair from... falling out.
yay!
--ms
For those of you messing with Blender, the key to keeping the UVs and proper textures is to go through the character and give all the UV maps the same identical name. For some reason, Blender is designed to only preserve the UV's upon welding if the UVs have the same names.
much thanks for that detail, and to Wendy for checking that out as an option.
I hope you can get your geografts to work as well.
--ms
Do you mean "shading domains" ,. since UV's don't normally have names
Also,. is it now possible to load and work with Daz3d/Poser content inside Blender ? (just like carrara)
I assume you'd also need to be able to save out the same formats for character, so that it works in DS/Poser
If you're asking me, yes, I meant UV's.
"Is it possible" is the thing I'm trying to find out. I exported from DAZ to Blender via a COLLADA file, though. You can't yet open up a .DUF file, but hopefully some Blender guru will fix that one day.
HI Inkubo,. :)
Sorry,. yes,. i was asking you ,. ..my bad.
Anyway,....
UV's are assigned to the model,. and they don't have names.
Material zones,. or "Shading domains" (in Carrara) are designated areas of the mesh which can be named,. EG: Head , Torso , Limbs ,. etc..
Those areas of mesh, can have different UV mapping layouts,. and different shaders applied to each "surface / material zone / shading domain".
So,. if blender requires that you re-name all the "named" shading domains, to a single name,.
that's not going to work when tansferred to anything which is trying to apply materials/shaders to those named zones/domains. since they're no longer there,. or no longer named as expected.
If you're still fighting with the Hair model,.
have you tried exporting this hair as an OBJ ,. to get a single object Without any morphs,. which will load quickly .....(if the issue is load time).
manually fit it to the figure, and Parent it to the head, ..for posing and animation
You should be able to weld the vertices in carrara, and retain the shading domain / UV layout's. (as long as you don't change the uv layout and retain the shading domains) But,. the problem is that you should never have to,. or want to weld parts of a purchased model together ,. they're unconnected for a reason.
The models are made by people who generally know what they're doing and why they're doing it that way.
so having a Skull cap,. and bands of hair,. all with named "shading domains" and slightly different shaders,. is really as good as it get's,..with modeled hair.
the next step would be using dynamic hair,.
Hope that makes sense :)
@3DAGE, looks like you didn't believe my answer
! But if you read this bug report carefully, it may convince you that I really am talking about the names of UV maps, not the names of vertex groups/shading domains.
I must not have been clear when I described above what I'm trying to do--otherwise why would you ask again about hair?--so forgive me for repeating myself: I'd like to use Carrara to animate a character composed of geografts, but Carrara's shader goes crazy trying to texture any model with fitted grafts. The reason why parts are unconnected doesn't matter to me, only the fact that Carrara can't handle them. @jonstark has gone to heroic lengths to try to find a way to get the parts to work together without actually being fitted, but so far we haven't managed to cross the finish line. In Blender, I know from having done it that I can stitch everything together to make a rigged character with a one-piece body mesh using DAZ textures, but that leaves the issues of fixing the skeleton* and how to export so Carrara can use the result. It would be much easier if I could just stay in Carrara, working with a perfect skeletion, when I do the stitching.
*Whether it's because DS's exporter is crappy or Blender's importer is buggy, the skeleton comes into Blender with some bones positioned incorrectly. I'm working furiously through a Blender rigging/animation course to learn about skeletons there so I can try to fix it.
It's not that I don't believe your answer , it's a commonly confusing area and I'm just trying to clarify the fact that there is no such thing as a UV MAP.
There is a "process" called UVW Mapping or UVW unwrapping,. (normally shortened to UV's)
. Irrespective of the "terminology" used in blender to describe the "layer" or area of mesh being unwrapped,.
UV mapping is applied to mesh,. or designated areas of the mesh. (material zones / shading domains) and those have names.
the UV layout of the flattened mesh (can be exported as an image map (Texturing template) ,.. but that's not a UV map either.
it's just an easy guide to help you in creating a surface texture image,
Moving on to the real issue,.
Geografting in Carrara does not function as it does in DS,. obviously,..
That's because Carrara has not been developed to the point where geografting works correctly.
There are issues with converting the DS "layered image editor" shaders,. to carrara,. and getting them to fit correctly.
Have a look at Genesis 1 (Michael 5 / Philip textures). and those are just textures,.
If you "Must" use that geografted figure,. either do that part in DS,. where it works as expected,.
Or,..
Import the geograft part, into Carrara,. as an OBJ, (this will retain any UV mapping and surfaces/Shading domains)
Parent it to the main figure (wherever that part goes),. (do not use Fit to , or Conform to)
The reality here is that adding additional parts to a figure ,. isn't new technology,. it's actually pretty old,. and pretty easy.
but Daz's "geografting" is a new "method" of doing that,. and with every new technology there are teething troubles,. especially when you try to use that new tech in another software,. which hasn't been given the same level of development.
Go back to the old-school methods which have been used for years.
rather than wasting time trying to fix something which is clearly broken,.
Ideally for DS or Poser,. you'd load the model (OBJ) , then rig the model in that software, then weight map it. and save that as a Character (CR2) or Figure (DUF)
it would be great if you could model and rig in any 3D software,. and all of that could be transferred easily and would work in any other 3D software,..
but it's not.
Most companies want you to stay inside their software,. and have built their own terminology, methods, or tools to keep you there.
Adding bones in carrara is easier than any other 3D program I've used over the past 25 years.
In Carrara you should be able to either create a model,. or import one. add a few bones to make it bend or animate,. then "parent" that part,. into the main figures hierarchy, wherever that part should be,.
It's exactly the same as adding a sword or gun to a figures hand,. so that it moves with the figure.
Try that before jumping through a lot of hoops.
One other thought,. (and I'm still kind of guessing at what the issue is) (pics may help)
and I'm sorry,. I got confuddled over the top post (mindsong) is asking about HAIR,. ......again,.. My bad. ... I shood learn too reed good.
In Carrara's shaders,. there's an Operator called "UV transform" which allows you to adust the position of a texture on the mesh.
I don't know if that may help adjust the textures,. or if you,. or Jon have tried that already,.
just throwing it out there.
I hope that doesn't sound harsh,. and makes some sense.
@3DAGE, for the record, your suggestion that I import the stitched .OBJ and rig it myself is probably the correct and final answer for Carrara. I do realize that, but I'm just casting about for a way to use the professionally designed skeleton and weight maps before giving up and inexpertly rigging my own.
You're also right that a picture is worth a thousand words. Here's a discussion of the problem, replete with images: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/185751/geograft-does-anyone-recognize-these-artifacts/p1
If you follow that discussion all the way, you'll see the great work several others did to try to overcome this problem.
And finally I've attached a pic where I managed to get Blender to show the names of shading domains and my consolidated UV Map at the same time. You can see the panel named "UV Map" offers a list of UV maps related to the selected mesh, but I have only one, named MinotaurUv. Originally there was a separate one for the body and each geograft part, but I went through and changed all their names to MinotaurUv so they would be combined instead of destroyed when I welded the parts' vertices together, which is the tip I shared earlier and the upshot of that bug report I referred you to.