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How to save a Layer Image Editor (L.I.E.) Preset?

3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
edited August 2017 in The Commons

How do you create a preset that adds a Layered Image Editor image to texture maps?

I've created a character that I plan on submitting to Daz that has about 18 makeup options and 4 brow options. Instead of adding all four brows to all 18 makeups (which would add 72 images to the file - ouch), is there a way to just include the brows on a transparent PNG and then create a preset that will add those brows to each makeup/face option?

Any help you guys can give me would be much appreciated! I'm sure no one wants their runtime bloated with 72 images if there is a way to do it with 22 images (18 makeups plus 4 brows). :) It would also save me a LOT of work of adding and saving each brow option to each makeup option.

Post edited by 3Diva on

Comments

  • kaotkblisskaotkbliss Posts: 2,914
    edited August 2017

    There's a product (I think it's called LIE Baker or something like that) That you'll need in order to combine the layered images into a single texture :(

     

    *edit*

    On the other hand, I believe it saves a temp copy of the layered effects in the Studio temp directory. I could be remembering wrong though

    Post edited by kaotkbliss on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    kaotkbliss said:

    There's a product (I think it's called LIE Baker or something like that) That you'll need in order to combine the layered images into a single texture :(

     

    *edit*

    On the other hand, I believe it saves a temp copy of the layered effects in the Studio temp directory. I could be remembering wrong though

    Yeah, that product is LIE Baker and all it does is permanently save a LIE image. Which isn't what I need (that would just create the 72 images that I didn't want bloating the texture file for my character lol). 

    I wonder how Daz vendors do multiple brow options (I don't think I own any characters that have multiple brow options but I know some vendors do it). 

    I know that Victoria 8 uses Diffuse Overly to add the brows to her face, but when I try to use that layering option on my character it turns the entire face white for some reason. :(

  • macleanmaclean Posts: 2,438

    If you just want to save the preset, it's in the Save list. Click the + in the content pane and choose 'Layered Image(s) Preset' (down near the bottom of the list).

    But be aware that LIE presets have a peculiar 'feature'. If you apply 2 different presets, the 2nd one doesn't clear the 1st and replace it - they stack on top of one another, creating a double LIE. I was going to use LIEs for something recently, and when I discovered this, I had to abandon the idea.

  • DestinysGardenDestinysGarden Posts: 2,550
    edited August 2017

    Hey Diva, I think you have at least one character set that uses LIE for eyebrows. Check my Iray Toon Styles for Genesis 2. I did the eyebrows using LIE on that, and the way I dealt with Mac's issue of LIE images stacking was to make a face (or character skin) reset preset to turn off all the LIE settings and go back to blank base. Be sure to put the eyebrow image in both the base color and translucency color, or you'll end up with red eyebrows.

    If you want to use the diffuse overlay for the eyebrows, you would need a .png image with transparency in the Diffuse Overlay Weight, and Diffuse Overlay Color. I'm guessing you had a .jpg with a white background in there, and that is why the face turned white?

    I'm looking at Daz's texture folder and it appears for Victoria 8 that they did diffuse overlays for eyebrow or no eyebrows for each makeup option, because the makeup is also changed on the diffuse overly. I'm not sure how that would affect your desire to cut down on the amounts of maps needed if you have to basically do one for every combination.

    One other thing I just thought of is that maybe you want to do the eyebrow presets on a geometry shell. That would give you an extra layer to work with.

    Using LIE or Diffuse overlay both have pros and cons.There isn't any one ideal combination that will work for every user, so there will come a point where you just have to decide how you want to proceed, and go with it.

    Good luck!

    Edit: You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the geometry shell idea for the eyebrows. That would make it really easy for the end user to switch in their own favorite eyebrow package, if desired, just by deleting the geometry shell. No fuss. I'd put a note on the .tip image to make sure you have the geometry shell selected when using the eyebrow presets, and it should be pretty straight forward. PM me if you'd like someone to give your thing a quick once over before you try to submitt it.

    Post edited by DestinysGarden on
  • NovicaNovica Posts: 23,905

    Oooh @divamakeup   How exciting!  I hope you figure it out!

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    maclean said:

    If you just want to save the preset, it's in the Save list. Click the + in the content pane and choose 'Layered Image(s) Preset' (down near the bottom of the list).

    But be aware that LIE presets have a peculiar 'feature'. If you apply 2 different presets, the 2nd one doesn't clear the 1st and replace it - they stack on top of one another, creating a double LIE. I was going to use LIEs for something recently, and when I discovered this, I had to abandon the idea.

    Thank you! I found a way around it. I'll be using the Diffuse Overlay Weight and Diffuse Overlay Color channels instead to do it, as that seams to be easier than trying to figure out how to get L.I.E. to behave. lol

    Thank you for the advice! :)

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    edited August 2017
    DestinysGarden said:

    Hey Diva, I think you have at least one character set that uses LIE for eyebrows. Check my Iray Toon Styles for Genesis 2. I did the eyebrows using LIE on that, and the way I dealt with Mac's issue of LIE images stacking was to make a face (or character skin) reset preset to turn off all the LIE settings and go back to blank base. Be sure to put the eyebrow image in both the base color and translucency color, or you'll end up with red eyebrows.

    If you want to use the diffuse overlay for the eyebrows, you would need a .png image with transparency in the Diffuse Overlay Weight, and Diffuse Overlay Color. I'm guessing you had a .jpg with a white background in there, and that is why the face turned white?

    I'm looking at Daz's texture folder and it appears for Victoria 8 that they did diffuse overlays for eyebrow or no eyebrows for each makeup option, because the makeup is also changed on the diffuse overly. I'm not sure how that would affect your desire to cut down on the amounts of maps needed if you have to basically do one for every combination.

    One other thing I just thought of is that maybe you want to do the eyebrow presets on a geometry shell. That would give you an extra layer to work with.

    Using LIE or Diffuse overlay both have pros and cons.There isn't any one ideal combination that will work for every user, so there will come a point where you just have to decide how you want to proceed, and go with it.

    Good luck!

    Edit: You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the geometry shell idea for the eyebrows. That would make it really easy for the end user to switch in their own favorite eyebrow package, if desired, just by deleting the geometry shell. No fuss. I'd put a note on the .tip image to make sure you have the geometry shell selected when using the eyebrow presets, and it should be pretty straight forward. PM me if you'd like someone to give your thing a quick once over before you try to submitt it.

    I love these ideas. I played around with the Geo Shell but I couldn't get it to behave right as I'm really new to geoshells and couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. lol I then abandoned that idea and went with the Diffuse channels. The solution I found was to do all four eyebrow options on the makeupless face option, then use the Diffuse Overlay Weight and Diffuse Overlay Chanels to add the makeup. At first I couldn't get the Diffuse channels to work and kept getting white face instead for some reason. I finally tried a work around and used Victoria 8's mats then one by one changed all the maps and settings and that allowed me to use the Diffuse channels without them turning white. 

    I'd love for you to test my character before submitting it! I was worried about finding someone who could test it for me (someone who knows what Daz is looking for and who has experience with this sort of thing), so I really appreciate the offer!  I'll PM you once I get the material files finalized and set up and everything saved properly. :)

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    edited August 2017
    Novica said:

    Oooh @divamakeup   How exciting!  I hope you figure it out!

    Thank you, Novica! I'm really excited and also a bit worried that they won't like the character. It's a LOT of time and work going into it - I never realized how much work and crazy amount of hours goes into character creation. So I'm worried Daz might not like it and all the hours would be for nothing. 

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • macleanmaclean Posts: 2,438
    divamakeup said:
    maclean said:

    If you just want to save the preset, it's in the Save list. Click the + in the content pane and choose 'Layered Image(s) Preset' (down near the bottom of the list).

    But be aware that LIE presets have a peculiar 'feature'. If you apply 2 different presets, the 2nd one doesn't clear the 1st and replace it - they stack on top of one another, creating a double LIE. I was going to use LIEs for something recently, and when I discovered this, I had to abandon the idea.

    Thank you! I found a way around it. I'll be using the Diffuse Overlay Weight and Diffuse Overlay Color channels instead to do it, as that seams to be easier than trying to figure out how to get L.I.E. to behave. lol

    Thank you for the advice! :)

    Yes, I use Diffuse Overlay, but probably in a different way.

    I wanted to put text on objects over an existing texture - labels on jars and cups - and after some experimenting, I discovered that I could have a tex with white text on a black background and put it in Overlay Weight, then use Overlay Color to get the color I wanted.

    It's a peculiar channel, but definitely useful.

  • DarwinsMishapDarwinsMishap Posts: 4,087

    Morning Diva- 

    This is outdated, but the process is nearly the same.  If the LIE set is for a character you don't have to go into the text and edit the paths, but if it's a stand alone (like my Make Ups/Tattoo LIE sets for G3M) then you need to edit the paths.  http://daz.tall-tales-racing.com/resources/creating_lie_presets.pdf at least gives you the idea on how the process goes.

  • jestmartjestmart Posts: 4,449

    L.I.E. LAYERED Image Editor, works just like layers in any image program.  If the layer is solid opaque of course it obscures everything under it, either make it png with alpha transparency or create a transparency mask for jpg.

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,548

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    DarwinsMishap said:

    Morning Diva- 

    This is outdated, but the process is nearly the same.  If the LIE set is for a character you don't have to go into the text and edit the paths, but if it's a stand alone (like my Make Ups/Tattoo LIE sets for G3M) then you need to edit the paths.  http://daz.tall-tales-racing.com/resources/creating_lie_presets.pdf at least gives you the idea on how the process goes.

    Thank you, DarwinsMishap! The tutorial looks pretty straight foward, sadly path/text/code editing in the .dsa files is a bit beyond my reach at the moment. I've saved the tutorial though for later when I feel a bit more comfortable with code changing. I really appreciate it! I think it will be very useful later for character creation when I'm more experenced with code and text editing. :)

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    edited August 2017
    IceDragonArt said:

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

    I'm sorry to hear that. Because it sounds like my only other options is to create a ton of L.I.E. presets, create new paths and file hierarchies, then learn how to do text/code rewriting to rewrite the paths, or the other option - bloat the files down with 72 images just for the makeup options alone and have huge file sizes - and I'm not sure people would want such large files A) taking ages to download and B) taking up valuable space on their hard drives. lol I think I'll have to go with the diffuse layers for the eye makeup for now, at least for this character. As it lets me cut the images for the makeup down from that otherwise 72 images to a much more manageable 22 images. Victoria 8 uses the diffuse layers for her makeups and eyebrows and I've not seen a lot of complaints about it on the forum. But I'd understand if you're not interested in diffuse layered makeup. :) I can't twist your arm. lol *hugs*

    Edit - Her eyebrows won't be on diffuse layers, they will be on the full texture maps. The lipstick will also not be on diffuse layers. It will just be the eye makeup on the diffuse layers and I'll have very clear preview images for the makeup options to show what they look like clearly. :) I know it's not a perfect solution, but I guess with characters with a lot of different makeup and several different eyebrow options, there really isn't a 'perfect' solution. lol 

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • mindsongmindsong Posts: 1,712

    I think your way of thinking is exactly right. As a user of layer-drive graphics tools, I figured the LIE was a cats-meow for DS, but it has never really caught on, except for a few vendors (Zev0/DraagonStorm/...) and some users - at least from what I can tell.

    I suppose the best way to judge your final product is how likely is it for a user to 'go there' and 'get it' with respect to the LIE. It's a bit coarse, but like de-formers, once you get the hang of their paradigm/thinking, it's pretty darned worth-it.

    I've always thought each product having 15 full character skins for the 15 makeup options was so inefficient, let alone the inability to mix and match the possible options with that model, so I applaud your direction here. Perhaps Daz Developers will update the interface to a more traditional (and backward compatible) layer pane of some sort and your product will be then even more attractive!

    good luck with finding a consumer-practical package for this 'right' idea! I think it's possible.

    cheers,

    --ms

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    edited August 2017
    mindsong said:

    I think your way of thinking is exactly right. As a user of layer-drive graphics tools, I figured the LIE was a cats-meow for DS, but it has never really caught on, except for a few vendors (Zev0/DraagonStorm/...) and some users - at least from what I can tell.

    I suppose the best way to judge your final product is how likely is it for a user to 'go there' and 'get it' with respect to the LIE. It's a bit coarse, but like de-formers, once you get the hang of their paradigm/thinking, it's pretty darned worth-it.

    I've always thought each product having 15 full character skins for the 15 makeup options was so inefficient, let alone the inability to mix and match the possible options with that model, so I applaud your direction here. Perhaps Daz Developers will update the interface to a more traditional (and backward compatible) layer pane of some sort and your product will be then even more attractive!

    good luck with finding a consumer-practical package for this 'right' idea! I think it's possible.

    cheers,

    --ms

    Thank you, MS! Yeah, it would be really cool if the L.I.E. system was updated to be more user-friendly and to help content creators give the customers more options. There's no reason why it should be so complicated to be able to include L.I.E. options in a product. Being able to include an image overlayed over another image and save it as a material preset shouldn't, IMO, have to include rewriting text code. lol

    Thank you for the feedback. As this is my first character I'm trying to work out the wrinkles and figure out the best way to go about doing things. :) Giving people options shouldn't have to be so hard. lol But now I know why most character creators don't often include several eyebrow options.

    Post edited by 3Diva on
  • DestinysGardenDestinysGarden Posts: 2,550
    IceDragonArt said:

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

    This is very true. The fact that the Diffuse Ovrelay does not show in the viewport is major nuisance.  Also, the L.I.E takes up memory space, and can cause the viewport to go flakey, cause DS crash (IMHO YMMV) and can't be undone easily. That is why I said earlier, there is no win-win choice for every user, so make the choice on how you want to make your presets, and go with it.

     

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,548
    divamakeup said:
    IceDragonArt said:

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

    I'm sorry to hear that. Because it sounds like my only other options is to create a ton of L.I.E. presets, create new paths and file hierarchies, then learn how to do text/code rewriting to rewrite the paths, or the other option - bloat the files down with 72 images just for the makeup options alone and have huge file sizes - and I'm not sure people would want such large files A) taking ages to download and B) taking up valuable space on their hard drives. lol I think I'll have to go with the diffuse layers for the eye makeup for now, at least for this character. As it lets me cut the images for the makeup down from that otherwise 72 images to a much more manageable 22 images. Victoria 8 uses the diffuse layers for her makeups and eyebrows and I've not seen a lot of complaints about it on the forum. But I'd understand if you're not interested in diffuse layered makeup. :) I can't twist your arm. lol *hugs*

    Edit - Her eyebrows won't be on diffuse layers, they will be on the full texture maps. The lipstick will also not be on diffuse layers. It will just be the eye makeup on the diffuse layers and I'll have very clear preview images for the makeup options to show what they look like clearly. :) I know it's not a perfect solution, but I guess with characters with a lot of different makeup and several different eyebrow options, there really isn't a 'perfect' solution. lol 

    No need to apologize its hardly your fault Daz wants to go to this type of thing.  I do feel bad for the content creators though because I really can't use that as I need to be able to do things in a reasonable amount of time. Its a step backward as far as I am concerned, its bad enough that one can't see the HDRI in the background without either rendering or iray preview, but to start doing it on models where people may change out make up more than several times per render just makes no sense to me.  And the difference in quality, honestly, is so miniscule that it doesn't make the aggravation worth it.  Again, not your fault, and I will probably buy your first character anyway because we are friends and I want to support you.  But I won't be purchasing from vendors that use this system in the future.  And to be honest, I don't need another single character and I am at this point, quite cabable of doing my own make up on a character so its more the vendors and DAZ's bottom line that will be impacted. And I'm sure, being only one person, they really don't care.

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,548
    DestinysGarden said:
    IceDragonArt said:

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

    This is very true. The fact that the Diffuse Ovrelay does not show in the viewport is major nuisance.  Also, the L.I.E takes up memory space, and can cause the viewport to go flakey, cause DS crash (IMHO YMMV) and can't be undone easily. That is why I said earlier, there is no win-win choice for every user, so make the choice on how you want to make your presets, and go with it.

     

    And I agree with Destiny'sGarden, you have to do what sells best for you.  I honestly don't even know how many people have noticed the change.  When I mentioned it when it first happened people were like oh, i didn't even realize she had make up, because it doesn't show in the preview window.

  • 3Diva3Diva Posts: 11,724
    IceDragonArt said:
    DestinysGarden said:
    IceDragonArt said:

    I really really dislike the use of the diffuse layers for make up and eyebrows.  Doesn't show up in the working window at all so you can't see what it looks like unless you either use the iray preveiw which bogs down a lot of people's machines, or you have to spot render or do a whole render every time you change the make up. I can go through quite a few make up changes for one render so the added time and aggravation just aren't worth it for me. 

    I am very excited for you though and I am sure that Daz will love your character!

    This is very true. The fact that the Diffuse Ovrelay does not show in the viewport is major nuisance.  Also, the L.I.E takes up memory space, and can cause the viewport to go flakey, cause DS crash (IMHO YMMV) and can't be undone easily. That is why I said earlier, there is no win-win choice for every user, so make the choice on how you want to make your presets, and go with it.

     

    And I agree with Destiny'sGarden, you have to do what sells best for you.  I honestly don't even know how many people have noticed the change.  When I mentioned it when it first happened people were like oh, i didn't even realize she had make up, because it doesn't show in the preview window.

    Thank you for the support, my friend! :D I did decide to go with the Diffuse Overlay layers, but only because it cut down the images by a whopping 54 images! lol A really big difference in file size. :) I really understand if you don't like that system though, and wouldn't be hurt if you didn't buy the character. I wouldn't want you to buy a character you won't use. I won't be mad at you, of course, by not spending money on something you won't use. 

    BTW, here's a sneak peak at the character: https://orig00.deviantart.net/1835/f/2017/256/d/8/diva_telly_promo_image_1_by_divamakeup-dbnbrgn.jpg

    Cross your fingers that Daz accepts her! :D

  • IceDragonArtIceDragonArt Posts: 12,548

    She is lovely!  I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably just going to have to suck it up.  Of course I'm going to buy your character don't be silly.  AND I will use her I promise lol.  I will still be more likely to purchase characters that don't use this but I'm trying to be open minded.

  • michael1689196michael1689196 Posts: 21

    Thank you Diva and DG for the great info that set me on my path of stumbling upon the solution for me, or at least it is looking good so far... I discovered that switching OFF the base layer in the LIE results in saving the application of the brows layer alone even though the view in the LIE is rather counterintuitive in that it shows the base layer (that I switched off) still showing. Opening the .duf in a text editor also shows the base layer referenced but applying it to my figure looks like it works as intended. Any yeah, without it applied to the SSS layer as well it resulted in red brows. Thanks all and I'm pleased that I'm yet one more step toward my first launch!

  • gibbiejoegibbiejoe Posts: 50

    LINK TO DarwinsMishap  http://daz.tall-tales-racing.com/resources/creating_lie_presets.pdf  in this tread. 

    https://web.archive.org/web/20201031072355/http://daz.tall-tales-racing.com/resources/creating_lie_presets.pdf

    Thank you, DarwinsMishap. 

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