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You mean they found the illusive "make art" button?
You mean they found the illusive "make art" button?
I love the idea of asking them where it is since I have never been able to find it.
I love the idea of asking them where it is since I have never been able to find it.
Same here. Difficult to find it, any hint is appreciated. <*sigh*>
...yep, again.
Currently sitting here loading the final folders filled with five years worth of accumulated software, plugins and content from my archives onto a transfer drive to install on the new system.
I've too have seen this topic surface many times but feel it needs to, as there are people new to this since it was last addressed.
I used to be a traditional artist (Oils, Watercolours, Pencil, Pastels, and Ink). I not only worked with these tools but even mixed my own pigments, made my own paper, and stretched my own canvas. I used to spend days on a drawing, weeks on a painting, at times spending more time in the studio than I did in my room or flat. I'm one of those who began sketching shortly after I could walk. I spent years in art classes, as a first year student was placed in a senior level art studio when in secondary school, experimented with new techniques in college. I even studied computer graphics back in the days when it required the knowledge of advanced mathematics and expensive time on mainframes just to produce a very simple image.
Art (along with music) was my life.
Based on the above, I'd be a pretty good candidate for looking down the nose at these "digital dolls and toys",
...however, there is a condition called RA (Rheumatoid Arthritis) which I now suffer from. No longer could I hold a pencil or brush steady in my stiff hands, especially for long periods of time. No longer could I sit at a piano or organ keyboard and play. Oh, there are expensive "treatments" and drugs, most of which have undesirable side effects (some of which can even be deadly), which is why I continue to deal with the daily stiffness and pain.
Many long timers here already know the story.
Basically without these "digital toys" I would have no creative outlet. My writing is very visual and I feel I can tell stories better in pictures than with words. Oh, I do plan to learn modelling, clothing design, texturing, and have invested in the tools required.
However, for the most part, I'll still depend on premade content. I find much of the creativity and challenge comes in the morphing, texturing and what I like to call "meshbashing" (more commonly referred to as kitbashing). For example a few years ago several of us embarked on the idea of making a child/teen character from Vicky4. It took about three months but I finally had an eight year old child. It felt good, I felt I accomplished something, and that is what is important.
Is Genesis a cheat, in that with several morph and shape slider moves, I can create that same eight year old child in a single evening? No. Having to struggle is not necessarily proportional to creating "good art". In fact I find the versatility of Genesis actually promotes originality in the way different character types can be mixed and morphed.
The one issue is we will never convince these people otherwise. Just as I will never be convinced that I have to languish in angst over every work I produce to feel it is "worthy".
After all, it is only words and someone else's perspective. If you can sit back and feel good looking at the pic you just finished, that is what it is all about.
You know, there was a time when painters were expected to mix their own paint, and buying premixed paints was considered cheating. I wonder how many painters know that, much less mix their own paint. Potters, dug their own clay, metal workers smelted their own metal... There is something to be said for doing those things, but it isn't what defines something as art/not art.
In a case like the community you describe, I suspect that the people here are often responding to a particular esthetic response they get from creating using the techniques they have used for a lifetime. Creating in this fashion fuels their creative process in a way they wouldn't be able to in another medium as it would be too clumsy for them. They have 'hit their groove' with their chosen medium and it gives back to them during the creation process. The truth is, a digital form probably wouldn't be of benefit for them as it wouldn't feed their creative process the same. We don't truly get 'in the groove' until a tool becomes second nature to us to some extent and they won't do that likely in this lifetime. If you are interested in sharing, I would suggest finding artists who haven't been channeled yet, young people. If there is a community center or other program where you can reach out to young people then they would be much more open to learning this paradigm as they haven't committed a lifetime to becoming good at a different one. Older people who take up new paradigms are much rarer, and so you might find one here or there but not as a rule in my experience. It's sad in a way, as one of the things that brain research shows is that learning new tasks, new paradigms, helps keep our mind young and flexible as we age, not simply learning more in an area we have been involved in our whole life. As for the threat they feel, it's a natural reaction to people who feel the way they did something might be slipping away. They hold value in something they fear future generations won't and see the very real loss in that. There are some blacksmiths around still. Some people do still dig their own clay ;)
phht. there are people that use poser/daz whatnot and "prebuilt content" that say you are cheating if you use postwork.
So really there is no escaping it. all you can do is just do what ya like and screw the people who don't .
No matter the circle you run with, there will be someone who's way of doing things is the only right way.
Not to detract from anything you are saying, but to clarify, painters used to consider simply 'mixing one's own pigment' as cheating, as they literally made the whole paint from the base components up and guarded those formulas, tweaking them, then passing them on to 'chosen followers.' A whole different level. And at that time, that was considered a vital component of measuring a works artistic value. The point being, perceptions do change over time. And, the one thing that has become pretty apparent is that the rate of change is accelerating at an ever increasing pace.
and, you do nice work.. I enjoy it :)
All of this reminds me of a saying... 'Steal from the best, ignore the rest.'
"Hey dire, look over there, what's that?" ;p
...man discovers freedom the moment he stops caring about the impression he is making or about to make...
@dimeolas : The only thing about that is, as an artist we are usually trying to engage the viewer and optimally create some response that helps awaken something in them, so that kind of defeats the purpose of art... For me, the thing is, we can only engage those who wish to be engaged, and not worry about others who don't.
Again, all of this is good and interesting, but the original idea is to allow each of us to engage in a creative, interactive process, without letting those that would stifle us do so, for whatever misguided reason they might have. We need to take courage in our creative pursuits, help each other when we can, and realize each person's creative journey is in the end a personal one which we can't take for them. The creative journey for me is akin to a spiritual one, and it should be nurtured in anyone we care about without trying to influence it unduly for it is their journey.
I have to say, I'm glad to be a part of a community where there are so many creative people who's work I like and get inspired by, most of whom I have never mentioned simply because I'd sound like a kid in a candy shop... (ohh, that's cool, and that, and that... ;)
...perhaps for some yes, they need a validation that theyver reached or touched viewers, but honestly not for me. It is something that is inside that needs to get out, that needs expression. If no one likes it yet I like it then thats fine. If I dont like yet everyone else likes, then I say thank you and smile. I appreciate that people take the time to look, and that many find my work peacefull, but thats not why i do it. IF I ever get to create for a living then of course its create what the boss asks for.
But if you creaqte work that you really like yet you seem to be the only one who does like it, will you turn your back on it? There are times in history when artists create in new ways and people dont like it, but they believe in what they are doing, it comes from within, like picasso, a need to create and get it out.
Theres many people in this world with many different opinions, imho you cant always listen to them, you cant validate from them, that needs to come from within.You can just keep going up the chain, from the 'you dont create all your own content so youre not real, to those who dont think 3D artists are real, to those who wont think youre real unless you paint, etc etc. Oversimplified but you get my drift.
I do know what youre saying, yet at the core we need that freedom. maybe the secret of life is knowing when to listen , who to listen to, and what if anything to do about it.
:)
Scott
@Gedd, sorry for not being clear, impression not meaning communicating with the viewer of the work. If you just slap paint on a canvas and expect things then its rather silly. Our craft is to communicate and create in the viewer a certain mood or thoughyt process. but that is separate from what the viewer maqy think of us and whether people poo-poo it being 3D or because we dont create all our own resources. I`ve always felt that you shouldnt artificially restrict your means to create, use what you can, true artistry shows thru in even the smallest things.
I understand that. I do some creative things totally for myself, mostly my poetry. I would write it when I needed to bleed things from my brain.
From a slightly different perspective, my other hobby is woodworking (real world 3D) - specifically making furniture. Am I any less of a woodworker because I didn't build my entire house and all the furniture in it? Is the final appearance of my home and its contents any less "valid" because I didn't hand craft everything personally? Heck no. Though I did build some of it, my "artistic eye" (and my wife's inputs) helped to assemble the rest into a cohesive whole for myself and my family to enjoy. I just want a comfortable place to live, and that includes other woodworkers' creations. If I insisted on building everything (and my wife does accuse me of this :) ), I wouldn't have time to live and enjoy other hobbies like 3D art, traditional art, or photography. The same goes for 3D art. Division of labor is a beautiful thing and is the reason why we have a civilization that advances by leaps and bounds. Without division of labor, we'd all be subsistence farmers and hunters.
So go forth and make art. The tools and process don't matter. Even the end result doesn't matter. What matters is whether you are happy doing it and whether it adds meaning and purpose to YOUR life. Don't worry about what others think. Be creative and have fun!
I think you make a very very important point too, when someone experiences artwork it is a personaql thing. They for example see a piece of artwork yet not everyone will see that work the same. And people will also filter that piece thru their experiences and perceptions. So just like eyewitness testimony, no two people may see it exactly the same.
:)
This thought process is exactly what is behind the concept in modern art that 'the selection of something alone can make it art.' While I don't agree that selecting a toilet and putting it in a museum makes it art just by the act of selecting it, I do see the point that is better demonstrated in your use here, like a japanese garden where the gardener doesn't create the plants but rather selects them and makes an artistic statement with the placement and integration, leaving the actual creation of the plants themselves to a higher power.
This is a very good point. I once had someone comment on one of my poems where they told me what they loved about it, how it spoke to them and then explained to me, the writer, what the poem meant. I said 'that isn't what it means at all, it means..." (I was young at the time.) This person then, very upset, like I had stolen something from them (I had) said, "what makes you think just because you wrote it, you have the only right to define what it means." I never forgot that. In fact, now when I create, I purposely don't try to totally control how someone will experience what I create, rather that they are inspired by it themselves... the story is a beginning (or a middle) where their mind creates the follow through. Or, an end.. where their mind creates the beginning.
....hehe yea the audacity of you as a young man eh? thats a good illustration too, because we dont always know how people will interpret and experience our work, If we let one person shove your work in the direction they wish, then its not really yours anymore, and robs others of their enjoyment. The way I see it, I guess I should say in my own artwork as opposed to something I might do for someone else`s vision....I create it and let it out. It goes where it will sometimes with a life of its own.
There is another aspect to your point dimeolas. The artistic journey for the artist (I believe) is about what that artist experiences during the journey. That is totally separate in some ways from how it effects others. As an artistic endevor, being social beings, we naturally try to engage and inspire others, and the more we do so the more we tend to use that as our measuring stick of how well we did. The real measure I would submit is how we experienced it in the process of creation. I think that is at the heart of the problem with most pop art. It effects a large mass of people typically in a very shallow way, and more importantly, often leaves a very shallow experience for the artist. What starts out as an artistic endeavor gets sidetracked into a moneymaking pursuit to the point that the artistic process becomes severely compromised. I don't think this has to happen btw just that it often does.
When I look at a piece of art, the second thought after'"Wow! This is nice!" is, "How did he/she do it?" I wonder not the art itself, but the path the artist thread to achieve the result(s). And I want to learn this path, but most of the times I'm in the wilderness...
Exactly!
For what it's worth, I completely agree about the "toilet as art" thing, but I just leave that to the market to decide. If the artist enjoys doing it, more power to him and may he enjoy many years assembling garbage into his vision of art. But if enough people refuse to patronize galleries that display that kind of work, the demand for public display of his product will disappear and make room for those who put a little more effort into their art. Blame the consumer of the art, not the artist for this situation. If people want pet rocks, someone will come along and sell them one. Who's to blame, the guy who gives the public what they want, or the much larger and more powerful public for their ignorant, tasteless wants? :)
Well the one thing I do give it credit for is by going overboard the point was being made that the definition of what is art is very fluid and that providing a focus, a viewpoint can itself be considered art. That I agree with. The toilet, and items like that were a way of taking it to an extreme to make sure the point was heard, although I think it achieved the opposite with many people. In some cases I think the particular artist was trying to achieve the opposite, point out that that wasn't enough. In either case, I don't think the artists point and the viewing public's interpretation was necessarily in line ;)
When I do photography, I am often trying to show something that many people walk past every day without noticing, and by focusing in a particular way, people looking at the result say "wow, that's beautiful, I've never noticed that before." I like to think that after such an experience, for a moment when they walk past something like that again, they take the time to slow down and notice, ingest, and let that moment touch them in a way they wouldn't have before seeing my picture.
...I do like that people appreciate finding peace in my work. I always say that i create peacefull scenes because my life is so stressfull. Lets just say that there are things i wont do in my artwork, and there are situations where I thought the work would be cheapened so ended affiliations. I`m not a prude by any means and I think each artists has to decide their own course. I have my own tastes and preferences just like anyone lol. But when I create I do not do so to create something that I think people will like. It is simply a matter of having an idea that needs to get out before it rips my head off, or trying a new technique or using a new mesh or atmosphere.
i have oftened wondered whether if one were doing this for a living, such as a painter of old...if one should create what was seen as popular or one should be like say Picasso and creat what he wished and see if it sells.
With a large enough sample of people, the lowest common denominator tends to be reeeally low... Maybe this is where elitism originates. So, 'mass-marked' art (shallow art?) is usually fleeting, and few would acknowledge their taste in such things when the shallow art has run out of their 15 minutes of fame. Stick with quality, not quantity. The only reason I don't delete old renders from flickr, is to remind me of what I've done. To keep getting better, though I wish I had the mad skills of several posters here, and those I've favourited at devart.
Well I for one hope to be able to do both, truly create, and pay the bills eventually :)
I think the future for many of us will be finding creative ways to generate multiple revenue streams, as any one may not achieve what we want.
I like what Robert Rodriguez says in his take on creativity here :)
wish ya the best of luck bro, may it happen beyond your wildest dreams, just dont ever quit dreamin
:)
Ya, I do this a lot also :)
Really interesting discussion :-)
Toolery exists everywhere, where it’s on forums where members look down on those who don’t use industry standard software or “rival” sites where some members get their jollies trashing D|S. Whatever their motives it leads to the same thing: a self-satisfied, parochial mindset. :lol:
That said, I will concede that the opinion in the “professional” sites are correct in one thing: if anyone plans to work in the industry they are better served by focusing on the software the post production houses use. And that’s it; anything else are merely others' opinions ( or as I like to think of plain wankery :cheese: ).
I could go into a discourse as to why I think they think that way, confusing craft mastery with artistry, but I won’t. The important thing creating art that’s meaningful to you, and others hopefully, has been brought up and elucidated eloquently by those with far more experience and skill than I have so I can only add “Hear, Hear!” ;-)
My point, and I do have one, is that software, experience, knowledge are only tools. If you feel the need to create or something inside you will die, if you gain familiarity (and eventually mastery, it is hoped) with whatever tools suit you best, if you can touch others, whether they be a handful, or multitides—then you have succeeded in creating art. :coolsmile:
Creating art that lasts is another chestnut, one I shan’t get into. ;-P
My small contribution, which I expect will be ignored, as per usual. :red:
Peace out. :P