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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited May 2013

    OK, I can do try that MFM.... the issue is that I'm used to being able, in Silo, to select a couple edges or verts and click "Merge" but in Blender this seems to be done differently so I'm kinda lost in figuring out what to do to merge some of these odd areas. I've figured out to move verts just fine.

    I did have a couple more questions.

    1) I clicked on the little corner things and well, now I have an extra window that I don't want or need, at least not for now. How do I get rid of that?

    2) In Edit mode how do you lock down stuff? Since my suit is comprised of many parts if I click and I'm not thinking about what I did I end up dragging the part with the cursor. Not sure I like that behavior at all. But if that's the way it is that's fine but there MUST be a way to lock the parts into place so they don't get accidentally moved around like that while still being able to edit them.

    3) How does one bridge two vertices or edges without creating doubles over the top? I've tried using what is there called "Bridge" but it seems to create doubles so that's not what I want.

    I figured that "Dissolve" is the way to go to get rid of the extra bits in the middle of those weird layout areas but then I'm left with disconnected verts that I need to bridge to others which will make the mesh look good again.

    Thanks so much!

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    Post edited by RAMWolff on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    OK, I can do try that MFM.... the issue is that I'm used to being able, in Silo, to select a couple edges or verts and click "Merge" but in Blender this seems to be done differently so I'm kinda lost in figuring out what to do to merge some of these odd areas. I've figured out to move verts just fine.

    I did have a couple more questions.

    1) I clicked on the little corner things and well, now I have an extra window that I don't want or need, at least not for now. How do I get rid of that?

    2) In Edit mode how do you lock down stuff? Since my suit is comprised of many parts if I click and I'm not thinking about what I did I end up dragging the part with the cursor. Not sure I like that behavior at all. But if that's the way it is that's fine but there MUST be a way to lock the parts into place so they don't get accidentally moved around like that while still being able to edit them.

    Thanks so much!

    1) Hover your mouse over an edge of it, right-click and choose Join Area. Then drag it in the direction of the window you want to disappear.


    2) I don't know how to lock their position (doesn't mean it can't be done, this program has so many features I'm ignorant of many), but I can exclude or hide them. Select the areas you don't want moving and use H (alt H will unhide). I'm using the shortcuts not to be a jerk against your stated preference, but because I honestly don't know where this is in the menus.


    Hidden areas will be pulled if you use connected proportional edit, but if you use the other proportional edit option (it looks like a blue donut with a hole) they will not be.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Thanks hon. OK, got that darned extra window merged with the other one. Took a few right clicks to get it to respond but it's done.

    I did add another question above with a screen grab. Like to figure that one out and DID try just about every option but I guess I'm not figuring it out very well with this one. At least Dissolve works nicely but yea, does leave some bits disconnected. :ohh:

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    Guh. That's a messy geometry, which is why I've been avoiding comment. The ideal answer to that is "don't use a program that generates procedural geometry for base meshing." When you've already got a mesh that looks like this you're spitting into the wind.


    To me it looks like the only thing to really do there is to separately make smaller quads out of it - for instance, select the three edges on the left gap and press f to make a face there, and then repeat that with other areas.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Hmm, Ok. I understand that but it's what I got.

    Perhaps if I try rebuilding just the "T Shirt" might be OK? In all honesty, I've not tried making something from absolute scratch. As in one vert at a time. I guess it's time. I guess the idea of ZBrush being the end all wasn't something that was going to pan out for what I was trying to do. I guess it would be different if it was just a sculpt and not creating clothing to be worn by another mesh.

    ZBrush does come in handy for making morphs for all sorts of things though, which I love that work flow!

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    RAMWolff said:
    3) How does one bridge two vertices or edges without creating doubles over the top?

    In Vertex select, select all of the verts that you want to join together as a single vert... then on the Tool bar select "Mesh" and navigate to the Vertex options and select "Merge"... you will then have a few options to choose from... First, Last, Center, Collapse.... choose the one that best fits your need...

    The keyboard short cut is Alt + M or SpaceBar to bring up the search/ context menu option (this is like the Menu options on the Tool bar...

    As for the area of your mesh in your screen shot.... that can be fixed a few different ways.... I would show you with pictures, but I'm at work and this computer doesn't have any programs that I could illustrate it with...

    nicci... :)

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited May 2013

    Has anyone tried the new grid fill?

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    Has anyone tried the new grid fill?

    I can't find the documentation for it. Given your pic is from graphicall I'm guessing it's a trunk build (meaning it's not official, it may or may not make it into final code, and I'm not touching it as far as my main work install is concerned).

  • M F MM F M Posts: 1,388
    edited May 2013

    RAMWolff said:
    1) I clicked on the little corner things and well, now I have an extra window that I don't want or need, at least not for now. How do I get rid of that?
    Adding to SY's trick of right-clicking... if you look in the top-right and bottom-left of every major panel, there's a little "\\\" icon there... if you click-drag that _toward_ the window you want to merge with, it will do the "arrow" thing automatically that SY revealed (using the "Area options" menu). To be honest, I didn't know the menu was still there - thanks SY! (^_^)n.

    NOTE: on a default page, when you're looking at a screen with the 3D-view on the left, the Outliner on the top-right, and the Properties on the lower-right, you can NOT merge directly right (because then you'd be trying to merge one window into two - and this quietly doesn't work). You need to merge the two windows on the right together (ie grab the "\\\" on the lower-left of the Outliner window and drag _down_)... THEN you can merge the 3D-view into the (now singular) Outliner window.

    If you click-drag that thing the opposite direction, _that_ is how you split the window to make new ones (and probably what you did by mistake earlier).

    RAMWolff said:
    2) In Edit mode how do you lock down stuff? Since my suit is comprised of many parts if I click and I'm not thinking about what I did I end up dragging the part with the cursor. Not sure I like that behavior at all. But if that's the way it is that's fine but there MUST be a way to lock the parts into place so they don't get accidentally moved around like that while still being able to edit them.

    To the best of my knowledge, there is no such attribute to a vertex (to have it 'locked' or unselectable) while still having the rest of the mesh editable (can you imagine the howls of confusion when people find they can't select parts of their mesh? "... check if it's locked!..." X). imho the reason for not having a "locked" attribute is the broad number of selection mechanisms available:

    . you can right-click and shift-right-click to add/remove to your selection;
    . you can use Select -> Border Select (b) and Box-select a range of vertices (assuming your viewing angle is such that you don't catch the verts "behind");
    . you can use Select -> Circle Select (c) and paint a region of vertices to select (again viewing angle is important)
    . you can use the 'Occlude geometry' button (in my screenshot at the top of page 2) to help avoid the problem with selecting the "rear" vertices when using B and C above;
    . you can use Select -> More (Ctrl-NUMPAD+) and Select->Less (Ctrl-NUMPAD-) to 'expand' the selection along it's edges, or reduce it... this is very useful when you have "more or less" everything selected and just want to pick up a few internal points;
    . you can hover the mouse near a vertex and press "l" ("ell") to select all verts that are linked to that one (this can be useful when your mesh contains multiple disconnected submeshes);
    . you can use Select -> Linked (Ctrl-L) to do something similar to the previous option, although you have to have a vert selected on the submesh you want to fully select;

    . you can save subsets of verts as a 'group' (yes, wildly overloaded term that X), like a bookmark, and then go back and select that subset again - once you have an 'important' subset of verts selected, use Mesh -> Vertices -> Vertex Groups -> Assign to New Group (or other options), then over on the Properties panel, mesh settings (the little 'triangle' of points, between the Modifier spanner and the Material sphere), the 'Vertex Groups' tab will contain the list of groups you've made of your verts... and can Select or Deselect the verts in the group from the main selection in your window. It's really a lot more long-winded to describe than to use >_<... but I find it very useful for saving "subsets" of verts (eg a sleeve, a small section of the model, or whatever) and going back to them quickly;</p>

    . you can select the verts that are surrounding a section of your mesh that has had a different Material applied (using the Material tab, 'Assign' to assign the current material to the faces you have selected, and then 'Select' at some point later to select just those verts that are surrounding faces of that material);

    . you can use the various Select -> Similar -> ... menu options (things like selecting by length, or by direction, can be useful in architectural / mechanical type meshes... not so much for something organic like a suit though... select "Normal" might be useful to select a set of faces that are all pointing in a similar direction...)

    . as an extreme case, you can Mesh -> Vertices -> Separate -> Selection to split out your verts as a whole new Object... this will leave the overall shape of them embedded within your active object, and you can Snap to them too... but may cause issues when you export;

    . there are also a number of other Select mechanisms available on the menu, but I don't use them so much... the above ones are just the ones that I've used recently;

    For the times that I've made a change and found more verts were moving that what I wanted... after the "Oh, oops..." moment, either Esc or Ctrl-Z to undo the change, then spin the model around to the side and Circle Deselect (C, middle button drag) - possibly going to Wireframe mode, if the verts are hidden inside other surfaces - then back to the operation again. Especially, if it's a collection of verts that was difficult to select, then I make a Vertex Group out of them, in case I need it later (^_^).

    btw, when you say your "suit is composed of many parts", are they all disconnected from each other within a single mesh? ... or is it all one connected mesh? (easy way to tell... Right-click to select any vertex, then Ctrl-L and see if the whole thing is selected, or just the local part). If they are all already separate pieces, then the "hover mouse over vert and press L" option is what I'd generally use to select a section... then if you want to clear the screen a little, Mesh -> Show/Hide -> Hide Unselected (or Shift-H)... don't forget to Mesh -> Show/Hide -> Show Hidden later X). Also, if your suit is actually separate Blender _objects_ (ie multiple entries in the Outliner), then in Object mode, View -> View Global/Local (NUMPAD-/) will show only that single object for you to work on.

    (imho the combination of hiding things using "NUMPAD-/" as well as hiding parts of the mesh with "H" confuses me enough >_<).</p>

    3) How does one bridge two vertices or edges without creating doubles over the top? I've tried using what is there called "Bridge" but it seems to create doubles so that's not what I want.

    I figured that "Dissolve" is the way to go to get rid of the extra bits in the middle of those weird layout areas but then I'm left with disconnected verts that I need to bridge to others which will make the mesh look good again.

    IIUC, you've removed got some holes in your mesh (from removing verts or faces) and want to 'seal' them up again? ... you can either select three (or four) verts around the hole and Mesh -> Faces -> Make Edge/Face ("f")... or select two edges (either from a common vert, to make a tri, or two edges with a common edge between them, to make a quad), and again Mesh -> Faces -> Make Edge/Face ("f")... and a number of ways that others have listed above.

    Perhaps if I try rebuilding just the "T Shirt" might be OK? In all honesty, I've not tried making something from absolute scratch. As in one vert at a time. I guess it's time. I guess the idea of ZBrush being the end all wasn't something that was going to pan out for what I was trying to do. I guess it would be different if it was just a sculpt and not creating clothing to be worn by another mesh.

    Generally, from what I've seen, it's one edge-loop at a time... very very rarely have I seen someone make something "organic" (ie clothes) pushing single verts around. They seem to start with a cube, subdivide, stretch, proportionally drag, apply Subdiv modifier a few times to see how it would look 'smooth', and then Magic Happens (at least to my eyes, watching the various 'time lapse mesh modelling' videos).

    I get the _feeling_ that one should start with a cube... extend it up and out to make the "T-shape" of the body... then put in various cuts (Loop Cut and Slide on Mesh Tools panel)... and stretch/shrink things to line up more or less with the shape of the body... then perhaps apply the Subdivide modifier and "curve" the sides in... etc etc. It would be easier to work with a human figure, but here's a quick ten minute effort at subdivision... just needs more loops, a more sculpting, etc etc.

    (NOTE: the following is NOT a good example of 'proper mesh' btw... I've totally ignored the need to make the shirt move about, adding in extra 'stretch zones' and things... just a quick example of how to make the shape using a minimum of verts... and allowing the Subdiv to do the rest).

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    Post edited by M F M on
  • M F MM F M Posts: 1,388
    edited December 1969

    SickleYield said:
    Gedd said:
    Has anyone tried the new grid fill?

    I can't find the documentation for it. Given your pic is from graphicall I'm guessing it's a trunk build (meaning it's not official, it may or may not make it into final code, and I'm not touching it as far as my main work install is concerned).
    Didn't Crouch's new "F2" tool do something similar? ("Crouch" of the "Loop Tools" fame ^_^)... ah, I see the image is from ideasman42... his builds are always full of interesting stuff (^_^)d.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Just back from the gym. I have food to eat and information to digest. Thanks.

    Nicci, I'm a visual learner so if you got any tuts link me up hon!

    MFM. THANKS so much. WOW.....

    Gedd, WOW, that grid fill looks like something I would LOVE to use! Looks so simple!

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    I'll post up some screen shots of how you can fix problems like that when I get home latter tonight... might be around 9pm my time (CA)

    nicci... :)

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    OK.... to answer the question about the suit being comprised of many parts. It's exported as one mesh but the group zones I created I guess in Blender are recognized as separate moveable parts. I think Silo sees them as the same thing.

    About rebuilding the T Shirt area if I can't get all this fixed, which I'm hoping I can, the part that is most important is figuring out how to build concentric circles which allows for breast morphs. I know my attempt at it in Silo and then fixing it up as best as I could in ZBrush, way before I started using Blender, didn't make the prettiest of meshes, as SY noticed, but I really think any mesh can be saved and reworked so I'm hoping with some tutelage I can get it done correctly.

    :-)

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    I'm in CA too! :-) Redwood City, near San Francisco!

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    RAMWolff said:
    I'm in CA too! :-) Redwood City, near San Francisco!

    Newport Beach in Orange County.... :)

    I have a cousin who lives in SF and I was born in the Monterey Bay area

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Awesome Nicci. Nice to know there are a few of us close by! lol

    Well, I'm off to Peet's, my friend is dragging me out for coffee and chatter! lol

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited May 2013

    SickleYield said:
    Gedd said:
    Has anyone tried the new grid fill?

    I can't find the documentation for it. Given your pic is from graphicall I'm guessing it's a trunk build (meaning it's not official, it may or may not make it into final code, and I'm not touching it as far as my main work install is concerned).

    ... that grid fill looks like something I would LOVE to use! Looks so simple!

    Yes, well actually... the impression I got from the initial time I saw it was that it was not a trunk build but in the update. When I went back to look for it, all of the original postings were gone and I saw various posts on problems with fill functions in general and images of the grid fill. My impression after this was that it was a feature that got put in, was found to be buggy and was pulled. However, it could easily be also that it was a trunk build and I just misinterpreted what I was looking at originally. Either way, I'm not finding information on it as readily now, which is what prompted me to ask if anyone had played with it. Especially as my reaction was akin to RamWolff's, ie... wow... that could be handy, delete a bunch of bad geometry and replace with a click (within limits of course.)

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Yup, that tool would come in SO SO handy!

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    Okay, this is split over two posts...

    I made a quick copy of the area from your screen shot to show two simple ways to fix it...

    Figure 1 shows how to merge two verts in the center to get started...

    Figure 2 just shows using the Space Bar to open the Dynamic Menu

    Figures 3 & 4 show one method the correct the existing topology

    In Post #2 figures 1 & 2 show another quick way to fix the same area as Figures 3 & 4 below

    I pointed out the menu selections since you said you prefer using that over remembering hot keys, but the key functions are listed next to any options that have them in case you want to know them...

    nicci... :)

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  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Ok, Post #2

    This method is deleting the face and then re-facing each quad...

    nicci... :)

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  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    WOW.... great way to wake up in the morning. Thanks so so much Nicci! May not have the time this AM before work but I'll def give this a try! Hugs

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Is there a way to disable those damned corner things so I don't keep accidentally creating split windows? I'm so done with that function. They have them all over the place and well if I'm not paying attention it happens again with one little swipe. I had to set it back to factory settings to get rid of the stupid extra windows. The little right click thing seemed to stop functioning. SO SO ANNOYING!

  • M F MM F M Posts: 1,388
    edited May 2013

    RAMWolff said:
    Is there a way to disable those damned corner things so I don't keep accidentally creating split windows? I'm so done with that function. They have them all over the place and well if I'm not paying attention it happens again with one little swipe. I had to set it back to factory settings to get rid of the stupid extra windows. The little right click thing seemed to stop functioning. SO SO ANNOYING!

    Yes actually...

    ... go to File -> UserPreferences (Ctrl-U)...

    Input tab... fold up the "Window" section if it's showing and unfold the "Screen" section (second entry)... the "Screen Editing" subsection...

    ... and then press the "X" at the right on the three "Handle area action zones" items (by default set to Left Mouse, Shift Left Mouse and Ctrl Left Mouse). With those three entries deleted... the little "\\\" things do nothing any more.

    (Note: it also appears to stop the little "+" from unfolding the Properties panel on the right of the 3D-view... can use the "N" hotkey to hide/show it though...).

    Post edited by M F M on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Thank you SO much. I so appreciate your help. :-)

    Over at the Blender forums I got ignored again. Feels like the daze when I was running Linux and had questions. I had like ONE guy helping me. Everyone else just ignored my pleas for help!

    :coolmad:

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for stepping in with all the pics, Nicci. That's really nice and clear.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    The three items in the Screen Editing area had check boxes. So I just unchecked then and saved out the User Settings and YAY... no issue now. Your fabulous! Thanks!

  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    I just read your post over at the Blender forum... looking at the pic you posted there I can see that there are several areas with varying topology problems...

    Now I can't speak for why no one there replied, but I can say that for myself, it would be rather difficult to try and explain how to correct all the different types of topology irregularities... the example I illustrated in my previous post was for the one area that you had posted a pic for...

    The other areas would require a similar strategy to correct... first is to find the flow of the edge/face loops leading into the effected area, then seeing were the loop is broken... once that is determined, I would look for a starting point to begin, usually a set of verts or edge to be the center point... like in the example I gave before, the two verts that I merged to start, corrected one large area and formed the remaining area to convert to quads...

    If you have trouble visualizing how to form the loops or correct the topology, I would recommend using Blenders Grease Pencil... It's like a marker that you can use to draw in the viewport, use it to follow edge/face loops and for drawing were you think edges or faces should be... then you can go and make the actual fixes to the mesh...

    If you need help with an area that you just can't figure out, just post a pic and I'll try to help... :)

    nicci... :)

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Thanks. I always find help here more than any other forum and always help those that need it. It's just the right way to do things in my book. I think many folks have an attitude that I should sit down and read 1000 pages of info and figure it out for myself. If I were rich and didn't have to work for a living I'd probably do that but since I'm a busy person and there are those out there that are up on these programs I like to ask. It's not taking short cuts in my book, it's just getting from point A to point Z allot faster. When I moderated a forum years back I was the expert on Xara and you can't imagine some of the questions I got from total newbie stuff to really advanced users just having brain farts. I was there, did my job and answered 1000's of questions. So you have to believe me when I say THANK YOU to you, MFM, Sickle and all the rest that are there lending help.

    THANK YOU! :kiss:

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,224
    edited December 1969

    Got it all corrected. Blender is fabulous. WOW!

    Thanks for the help all!

    More to learn. Always. Onwards and upwards!

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  • niccipbniccipb Posts: 483
    edited December 1969

    Hi...

    Looks good... :)

    But I see one spot that needs to be fixed... in the image below select the yellow vert first and then the red vert... then merge using the option "at last"

    nicci... :)

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