More Non-photorealisitic Renders (NPR II)
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You are correct. I didn't see that. Skimmed it to quickly. I saw Free TRIAL that through me off. I'll check it out. I like the 1st 2 images a lot.
Thanks @tkdrobert ... I look forward to seeing what you do with it.
Here's a quick render of a Stonemason background with Daz figures with a cinema filter.
@thedoctor Those TwinMotion renders look great!
Thank you so much @3Diva. I enjoy your posts so much and appreciate how much you devote to this community.
I am glad this is an active thread with people who are passionate about the medium. This weekend I spent some time on the PencilJack forum, which is comprised almost exclusively of artists who are comic "purists." I found it interesting and useful to get a better understanding of how 3D comics are perceived by traditional artists. They have a pretty cool ongoing competition called PUMMEL in which artists go head-to-head. The rules forbid use of any 3D except as a guide and only if the artist personally created and mapped the models used. One member even commented "What about use of 3d? It's 2017, are we going to start using digital tools that some comics professionals actually use or continue plodding along as usual with no real justification?" Another member admitted he used 3D on 90% of his paid work for clients.
There was also a fascinating discussion looking at how the great artist Brandon Peterson began using 3D references for his work around 2015. One member added this comment:
"I agree there is some nice sophisticated stuff going on in the 3d page. There are obvious advantages to 3d: dynamic camera angles, lighting/shadow information, accurate linear perspective, reuseable assets, speed, etc. One drawback, at least in Peterson's 2015 sample, is that I think he used pre-made 3d figures from software like Poser or Daz Studio, which tend to produce stiff poses. I've noticed that artists who can model and rig their own 3d characters generally have a better chance at fluidity a la Pixar"
Other members are simply adamant that using 3D leads to "lifeless" pages.
Of course, these kinds of discussions always involve prejudices and biases and 3D is simply a tool. I appreciate you all on this thread who have such enthusiasm and interest for using 3D to produce images. It is so wonderful to feel welcome here. I will always continue working with traditional artist's tools and I will always appreciate and admire great comic art produced through classic approaches. Nevertheless, what really excites me is the discovery of new ways to visualize scenes and tell stories using these wonderful digital tools and 3D in particular. So, thank you again all of you. I hope this thread remains active so I can learn more myeself and contribute to the discussion of tools and techniques.
Mostly a shading and D-Forece study
Yeah, I think a lot of "purists" think that 3D is a crutch, but really it's an extremely valuable tool. People create comics simply for the love of comics - you'll never get rich making comics (unless you are one of a very small handful of the top artists working for Marvel or DC), and comics take an extraordinary amount of time to create. An entire team of people from writers, penciler, inker, colorist, letterer, to editor are all usually needed to produce "traditionally drawn" comics at a fast enough rate to even be remotely viable for hitting a release schedule on time. And even then, unless the comic is super popular, you'll really not make enough to make a decent living. Six different people needing to be paid from the sale of a single comic. However, when 3D enters the picture it can greatly speed up production, and essentially allow a single person to take on the role of what "traditionally" usually requires an entire team of people. It opens the doors for so many who normally wouldn't be able to tell their stories in this medium (not without a Ton of Cash and/or VAST amounts of time to do all the drawing, inking, coloring, and lettering by themselves).
3D is an incredible tool that opens doors that would otherwise have remained shut. Storytellers, on a fairly modest shoestring budget, can tell their own stories, in their own ways, and in their own time - and that is HUGELY liberating.
I think that a lot of premade poses can be pretty stiff, one has to learn to pose their figures with dynamic energy. Camera angles can play a big role in that too. In traditional comics the bodies are usually drawn as if they are "coiled springs" - they are either released and "sprung" or compressed and coiled and ready to spring. You rarely see them in a stage that lacks energy. Take the following page from Captain America for example. This is an EXTREME example, and of course, a lot of comics will not need to show this extreme level of energy - but it does show that dynamic energy is often needed for the poses and the camera angles in order to convey action and motion.
Look at Captain's body in the first panel - it's like a coiled spring that has just been released and all the force and energy of it expelled upon the enemy that he's punching. And his body in the third panel: crouched a bit lower, compacted - again like a spring, but this time coiled and ready to be sprung. Dynamic poses go a long way to help bring energy and motion to the panels/scenes.
At the same time, using dynamic camera angles also can help inject a lot of energy into the panels/scenes. Take the second panel for instance - the hand and gun are huge, the biggest things in the panel conveying their importance and the urgency of the situation. The extreme perspective not only puts the gun and the hand reaching for it as the main focus but also injects more energy into the scene.
Again, that page is an EXTREME example, and not all comic pages will (or even should) be that extreme. But it illustrates how movement and energy can be brought to the scene by purposefully adding dynamic energy to the poses, camera angles, and perspectives.
In many successful comics, even when two people are just shown taking, their hands, shoulders, and faces are usually extremely expressive and show energy. With static images one can't show true motion, so motion and energy often needs to be added to the poses, expressions, and camera angles in order to convey that "motion". That is something that 3D comic creators sometimes lack and it can lead to pages that (as was pointed out) feel "lifeless". However, when creating your scenes, if one can keep "dynamic energy" in mind when setting up poses, expressions, and camera angles, it can really breath life into the scenes.
Very cool! I really like his flowing cape! I'd say that's a pretty successful dForce study! :) His silhouette gets a little lost around his head area, due to the building behind him being so dark, but that's a minor "nit-pick". lol :)
[snip]
Great observations and analysis. Dynamic panels certainly bring life to the comicbook page. @3Diva catchy new name by the way!
Thank you, @FirstBastion . I hope I didn't come off sounding like a "know it all". lol Those are just my own views and thoughts on the subject, and of course I'm sure there are others who disagree and that's totally valid too. :)
As for my name, "3Diva" - yeah, I figured that "Divamakeup" might be a bit misleading as a PA name, since I rarely make any content that's makeup related. lol I'm so used to being called "Diva" that I wanted to keep that part, and I wanted to add the "3D" to pay homage to this important art form. It might be a tad silly but I like it! lol :D
Hey guys, I wrote a response to the discussion above, but moved it over to the Comics thread. Even though NPR is definitely part of our comics discussion, I thought my response fit in a little better over there.
wonderful flow and composition!
@3Diva nicely said and what a terrific page you posted - thanks for commenting on that last illustration i posted
"Medico Della Peste (The Plague Doctor)" - 2020
21 x 27 inches.
Carrara work.
A ring, a ring o' roses,
A pocket full o' posies –
Atishoo atishoo we all fall down.
- Folk rhyme collected in Lancashire, 1883.
Alternative colors and shaders
I like both but I think the first is more dramatic
bit of poke through and handle showing plus male child standing on female's foot almost - but that's okay Carrara job using Carrara native render passes plus post work
Holy cow, man! This is fantastic. It really reminds me of a cross between Alice's adventures Through the Looking Glass and Over the Garden Wall. This is totally cool. (And I don't mind his foot placement – it adds a sense of naturalness to this scene). Well done! Is this for a story?
Hey all. This is a very ROUGH test render to review the poses and camera angle for an illustration for a short detective story in an anthology. The guy (who will probably get new hair tomorrow) is not abducting the woman, but she's not happy about the ride. Other than that:
What is your take on their relationship from the body language and expressions you see here? What are they feeling or how do they make you feel about them? In other words, what's your first impression of each of them?
Does his arm look natural wrapped around her shoulder (can you even tell that's what's going on)?
What about the hand on the steering wheel; is the position okay?
Can you tell that she's wearing a bandana on her head because of the wind? I know it needs a few more wrinkles in the fabric, but those will be added in postwork.
Thoughts on the dress texture? I think she needs a darker dress to balance the image with him, but on the other hand... maybe not?
Any thoughts you have will be greatly appreciated. Normally I let it rest a bit longer and see how I felt about it next week, but (I know this will shock you to the core) I'm behind on the deadline and need to turn it around this weekend.
Thank you for the feedback. The 1st image was done with Visual Style Shaders and the 2nd was done with the shaders that come with MightMite's products.
I couldn't tell what she had on her head. Her expression could use some work. I didn't notice he had his arm around her until I read your explaination.
Thanks. You know, when I have a question about whether something works, I should just automatically assume it doesn't. I think I've figured out why it doesn't work, so I'm going to take another stab at it (and his hair.
BTW: You probably wouldn't guess how long it took me to find a simple, NORMAL necklace like a cross on a simple chain. Everything out there was all huge and gothic, super ritzy and sophisticated... or looked like a queen's crown jewels!
Brilliant work! This really captures the feeling of an old painting! This is very, very nice.
I like the pose and the costume/props. Not sure about the background, to be honest. The arched doorway does kind of frame him, but it's a bit off. And is it my imagination, or is the background just a bit lighter in the middle of the painting? If so, I like it – there seems to be a hint of red/pink in it. All in all, WELL DONE (and the poem is perfect for this day and age!).
You know what would look cool? If this were half of a dyptych and he were looking at his lady love. Just a thought!
I kinda wanted to see these side-by-side to compare them.
These both have a LOT going for them. It just depends on which style / era of The Bat you're trying to convey. I love the cape in the blue one, but I think his costume is a little too shiny – the highlights look a little too much like silk or plastic.
Y'know what's odd? I would expect the brighter skin tone on the blue costume and the darker skin on the black render. All in all, though, this is really good.
I actually turned down the shinness, a bit, on the blue one, but maybe not enough? The skin tone is due to the different shaders. I actually used Photoshop to brighten up the face on the blue one. It was even darker before that post-work.
Yeah, I still think the blue image is too shiny (on the gray costume, not the cape). And I think the skin needs to be a lot lighter in that one. All in all, though, looking good!
He looks a bit "sleazy" (it might be the way he's smiling and the fact that you can't see his eyes). The body language looks to me like they aren't that familiar with each other - the way he has placed his arm and hand looks a bit stiff and like he's "testing out" his boundaries and seeing if she's ok with that kind of physical contact and like he's ready to withdraw his hand and arm if she protests. And, like tkdrobert said, I didn't notice the arm and hand until you pointed it out.
3: The hand on the steering wheel looks "ok" but probably could be a little better - it looks slightly off, but I'm not sure if it looks off enough to bother messing with.
I couldn't tell it was a bandana exactly, it looks to me like some kind of hat. Maybe make the bandana's knot and ends a bit more visible - may be moved over to the side of her head a little more so that it's more obviously a bandana instead of just a hat?
I think the dress textures looks nice. I do think that her hair texture needs a bit more tweaking. The strands are a bit too "fine" for that kind of line work. Maybe up the "cutout opacity" of the hair so that it looks a little more drawn and less rendered. Or a different hair with thicker strands/locks. It definitely needs thicker lines to fit better with the rest of the image's line thickness.
EDIT: @mmitchell_houston SORRY - I had to post that real quick since I needed to make lunch for the hubby. I had wanted to add that I really like the overall style of the image. The composition is nice and I really like the "comic book panel" feel to the image. Very cool!
Oh man.. this is seriously creepy but also cool. Beautiful work!
Thanks! I really wanted a woman's reaction to his expression, and you confirmed what I suspected. He's a little too sleazy looking (I think it's the combo of the grin and the sunglasses). I need to tone it down a bit. And I'm going to fix the bandana knot in postwork because moving the hair completely under the bandana messed up the way it flowed. And ditto for the hair. I think you all might be surprised at how much post work (i.e. hand clean-up) goes into the hair in my illustrations. It always renders super fine and I have to go back over it in Clip Studio Paint to add definition to the edges and the major "flow areas" of the hair structure (by that, I mean to the major areas that curl or need to stand out).
Thanks again for the input.
BTW: This is a 100% Raw Render of the Poser Pro 11 Comic Book Preview. There is no postwork or clean-up in this. If you've ever wondered where I start with my illustrations, this is it. You can see that a lot of the lines are really good, but there are a few random lines here and there (like on the chrome edge of the windshield) that will need to be deleted. But the basic geometry outlining process is pretty solid. However, I did manually edit the texture outlines on each object. Notice how thin the lines are on her teeth and necklace when compared to her jawline and arm. Also notice that the lines on his face are of different width than those on his ear. In other words, I carefully customized the line thicknesses in the Material Editor. Even so, there are a few issues with things like his collar and lapels. Also, the car was done with huge texture areas, so I'm having trouble editing it to get exactly the results I want (the windshield wiper blad and that rearview mirror are slightly "off" and will be fixed in CSP).
@mmitchell_houston:
What is your take on their relationship from the body language and expressions you see here? What are they feeling or how do they make you feel about them? In other words, what's your first impression of each of them?
My impression is very clearly the guy is confident and in control. This is enhanced by the camera angle making him prominent and the fact that he is in the driver's seat (literally and figuratively). His wide smile connotes he is possibly arrogant or at least smug. The girl's expression, to me, is more equivocal. She seems to be going along with things without alarm, but appears somewhat puzzled or at least uncertain.
Does his arm look natural wrapped around her shoulder (can you even tell that's what's going on)?
I'd suggest raising his arm so we see the line clearly. You lose the position of the arm due to the elbow being lower.
What about the hand on the steering wheel; is the position okay?
The windshield pillar cuts right across the wrist/cuff, making the hand position less clear and the alignment of the mirror and lack of any features/lines in the forearm kind of suggests he has a fatter arm than he does.
Can you tell that she's wearing a bandana on her head because of the wind? I know it needs a few more wrinkles in the fabric, but those will be added in postwork.
Yeah, a few wrinkles will help immensely.
Thoughts on the dress texture? I think she needs a darker dress to balance the image with him, but on the other hand... maybe not?
I'm a fan of the stark pattern of her dress. I think it contrasts and works well.
I REALLLY like this bold "ink" style and other than my comments in red above, I think its a great panel.
If her eyes were shifted to the right side, it would help suggest her reaction is due to his hand on her shoulder. Right now it appear she is simploy looking forward. It's also unclear if she's trying to stop a hat from flying off her head.
I don't really get any sense of threat from his facial expression. It does feel like the sixties.
The low position of the rear view mirror and the dark ink clutter up the details inthat corner with the dress, the arm, the wiper, and the mirror melding into a simgle merge of details.
I'm glad you caught the 1960s vibe I'm trying to convey (which isn't all that easy without going into cliche without going into "mod" clothing and crazy styles). Yeah, that mirror position is a pain in my butt. But I can't get rid of it, so I'll just have to clean it up and minimize its intrusion.
Thanks a lot for the feedback. The arm definitely needs fixing and I'm going to adjust a few other things. Y'know, your comment about this being a "panel" got me thinking. This is actually a single, standalone illustration for a prose story. However, this approach means that I don't get to show the cool silhouette of the Corvette. If I think of this as a full-page illustration, I could treat it as panels and show more than one image. Thanks for the idea. If I have time (and if the editor likes it) I'm going to approach it that way.