So little documentation, so much frustration
blue_055c15ca15
Posts: 17
My frustration with the lack of documentation continues to grow as I waste hours of time trying to experiment with the different settings available in DAZ3D.
First, let me state, DAZ is a wonderful product, esp. for people new to 3d graphics - you can't beat the entry price. However, in the past 2 years I have spent $976.00 at DAZ alone on products from the DAZ shop, a not insubstantial sum of money, and yet for all my investment I feel helpless at utilizing the various settings and all the parameters which are provided the user. I feel every time I work on a particular project that I might as well be throwing darts at a dartboard while blindfolded in so far as knowing what the final results will be.
I especially work on lighting my renders and have acquired all the Uber lighting sets, Luxus, Reality and LuxRender but the absolute lack of documentation on the DAZ side of things means that I am left to fiddle with sliders and setting for which there is ZERO documentation as I try to learn how to effectively use what I've paid for. The guides and references that are available are of barely of any use.
I know I'm not alone in my frustration and find postings such as the following to be typical:
-Daz3D is sucking at documentation, months after its release DS4 still doesn't have any docs that are worth mentioning, there's some videos on YouTube and a crappy quick start guide, that's about it. Even just a detailed desciption of all the 3Delight rendering settings do, would go a long way.
-The docs for UE2 US1/2 etc whilst better than the DS ones (not that that is hard when DS doesn't have any), are still somewhat lacking, there are a lot of settings and options that are just not explained at all, especially in US2.
-The forums are very hit and miss for finding anything out and a lot of it is real old and for past releases. There are a few gems though like this one [link]
-3Delight has very good docs, however they're not much use to DS users. 3Delight's shaders are written as scripts and are not consumer friendly, as 3Delights target users are professionals who make a living doing this stuff and demand the type of flexibility scripting gives them. 3Delights own description of it's self is a "high quality, high performance rendering software and tools based on the industry proven RenderMan® standard and practices." This basically means it's damn complicated
I'm asking myself, why do I continue to pull out my hair and while away so many hours trying to figure out how to make a good render when so much of what I'm struggling with would be solved by true documentation, not only from DAZ about DAZ3D but also from vendors like Omnifreaker.
As an artist, I want to concentrate on content, on composition, on character and narrative . I shouldn't have to spend all my time on render after render sliding and adjusting blindly in hopes of hitting the right combination of settings to produce what I want. You can't even go online and BUY documentation. Amazon has maybe one or two books devoted to DAZ and both have mediocre reviews.
I am just SO FRUSTRATED and feel I need to make a decision as to whether any further investment in time trying to figure DAZ out is worth it on my part or should I just move on to a different product? I think DAZ wants users like me, willing to spend 1k on product, but at that sum of money I don't think anyone would find fault for a user expecting real documentation - and not just some squirrely video tuts covering the basics - to accompany his purchases.
ALSO NOTE: So many times I click on links to supposed help files and get this: "404 Not Found" error messages - how discouraging.
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Comments
I am just the opposite, I learn from doing. So all the fiddling you are doing is how I learn and keep learning. I do realize that not everyone is like me, so I can sympathize, but in reading your post, much of what you are doing is part of the creative process. No amount of documentation will make for a perfect render at first try, there is no "make art" button. From what I have seen there are so many videos and posts on how to do many of the things in DS and any other app you need help on posted on the web, just takes a search or asking. What exactly are you trying to do that you need help on?
I think the biggest problem here is one of expectations. A manual would take you through the functions of the program, but to go into detail about the underlying technicals of 3D art would be a whole new manual in itself. I can't deny that documentation is probably one of the weaker aspects of Daz Studio, especially given that Poser has a particularly in-depth manual, but it's certainly a lot more accessible than Poser's lofty price tag.
For the most part though, the documentation you seek does actually exist, just not in a traditional book format. There is a wealth of information on the forums, and documentation is improving (see Age of Armours Subsurface shader docs for proof). I've only been using Daz Studio for a relatively short amount of time, but my skills have improved tenfold in that time, and there are always more things to learn.
I realise not everyone who buys products frequents the forums, but in truth most products like this are far easier to master with support from others. Even big name products like 3D Studio Max and Maya have large community bases which share support and techniques. Poser's no exception to this either. It's the way things are progressing these days.
Of course, this doesn't mean I wouldn't be fully supportive of a Daz Studio manual. I do suspect, however, that should a manual ever be put together, it may end up being a joint community effort rather than directly written by Daz themselves. Call it a hunch.
That aside, if there are particular sticking points for you then feel free to ask for advice. Many of us here have probably hit similar bumps in the road and can help you find the smoother path.
imho - you're unlikely to find any joy with other products... just the $$$ spent will be higher (much higher, in some cases). They all have learning curves, some have documentation which are basically just a copy of the tooltips, not the Why and Wherefore of each slider and button and what you can reasonably expect from changing it's value. Even straight renderers like Keyshot still have discussions about lighting and HDRI and material settings and so forth.
If you're really grinding your teeth atm, perhaps put DS to one side for a few days to cool down, then (as FSMC and Herald above suggest) lay out your problems here and I'm sure you'll get a swag of guidance from others who've been through the same issues. Yeah the documentation isn't all it could be... (v_v).
I have found that I have learned far more from the forums than I ever did from any manuals. Before there were forums it was articles in magazines.
We do have a New Users Help Forum, and people there are very good at helping, from the rawest newcomer to those who know some, but need help still.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/categories/97/
We have some helpful topics as stickies at the top of the forum, and all the threads in the forum have hints and tips on a variety of subjects, and solutions for a multitude of problems.
Greetings,
While it wasn't a panacea, I have to admit that (as much as I get a 'used car salesman' vibe from him) Dreamlight's lighting tutorial video was useful, mostly for the 'watching over someone else's shoulder while they do something' aspect.
So that I'm not burying the lede, I'll repeat my last paragraph here: Tutorials are part of utilities and resources so if you drop a tutorial video in your cart right now, you get 40% off if it's over $20! So it's a good time to pick up a tutorial or so.
In the core tutorial sets Dreamlight demos mostly in DAZ Studio, gives examples using both the built-in renderer, and Reality. He talks about the use of light, and how you want to place it, etc., as well as what the tools do. There's a whole set of basic video tutorials for free, here in the store, that might help you some. There's more for-pay at his site, most of which are also available here for about the same amount.
The Luxus stuff had documentation also, IIRC, which was pretty decent, plus the video tutorial.
I thought Omnifreaker's documentation was very good, although I had to get over an initial hump to understand it.
On the flip side, I've spent...a lot of time and money in the year and a quarter that I've been here. More than I should have, so some of it may simply be concepts sticking to me because I've been exposed to them a lot over that time.
Probably my biggest moment was recently realizing that you can use sub-surface scattering to make translucent lightshades that look real. :) That's a combination of advanced pieces of DAZ Studio coming together which blew my mind, and I'm really not sure that there's any documentation that would have had that combination. It's learning the concepts, not learning the tool. And any manual DAZ provides will be about learning the tool.
A lot of getting good at this is just experimenting, saving Every Damn Experiment that has anything marginally interesting, so you can go back and see how you did it, and time.
But again, for me it helps HUGELY to see someone who's experienced at the tool using it, just via the various videos, doubly so if they're doing something interesting to you.
For what it's worth tutorials are part of utilities and resources so if you drop a tutorial video in your cart right now, you get 40% off if it's over $20! So it's a good time to pick up a tutorial or so.
-- Morgan
[Edit: I just did the math, and I own exactly 50% of the non-Bryce/Carrara/iClone tutorials available here... :) Shows how I learn. ]
I learnt all I know from Youtube:)
#1 resource if you're doing 3D and using biased lighting: "[digital] Lighting & Rendering" Birn, Jeremy, ISBN 1-56205-954-8, LOC# 00-100411
Artist or not, learning to use the tools is a prerequisite. A sculptor buys his chisels, blades, etc, but no instructions come with them. A painter buys the paints, canvas, brushes, but no instructions. A writer buys paper, pencil -- instructions? A Musician buys the instrument, but where are the instructions on how to play it? 3d? DS is free, leaving money to buy the instructions. Or you can plunk down several hundred dollars for that other piece of software. Instructions are still extra work.
In every case, one must seek out the necessary information, teachers, resources. It is part of being an artist. If using DS, then you've found a good resource. Look in the "New Users" area and browse the "Help" link at the top of this page.
Is it frustrating? Yes. Are you left with piles of ruined canvas, broken stone, kindling, or wadded paper? Nope. Make a mistake, start over with nothing lost, and experience gained.
Good luck, and let's see a masterpiece from your efforts. :-)
Kendall
Honestly, I get kind of tired of people answering the question of why isn't there better documentation for DAZ Studio with "Oh, you can learn so much more on the forums and via tutorials." The problem is that it USED to be true, but ever since the new store/forums went up, the state of the forum archives has gone to hell, hundreds of useful threads have since been purged from this forum as well, and most of the tutorials that are out there are badly out of date. And to make it worse, DAZ is still selling plug-ins that don't work with any version of the software that's been available for two years.
Believe me, I try to turn a lot of folks onto DS4+ and Genesis, but when I talk to them later I find that the majority have either given up or moved to Poser, where you can buy multiple comprehensive supplementary manuals via Amazon of just by just walking into any Barnes And Nobles.
It's a shame, because Genesis really is a superior product, but between DAZ's lack of documentation, the terrible public relations SNAFUs of the last two years, and the mess this store has become, I can see why they have to keep giving DS4 away rather than making money on it the way Smith Micro does.
I really don't see or experience any of that. The store works great, the program works great and I have had no issues with customer service. If anything, I see the opposite. I used to be a poser only user, but I am in DS 90% of the time now, it just works for my workflow..
I really don't see or experience any of that. The store works great, the program works great and I have had no issues with customer service. If anything, I see the opposite. I used to be a poser only user, but I am in DS 90% of the time now, it just works for my workflow..
It just amazes me to hear someone say they have experienced no problems with the store. Do you actually buy anything in the store? The store has had one problem after another that a large percentage of members have experienced including myself and the moderators. There is certainly a lack of documentation and public relations with DAZ has gone downhill. DAZ does still take care of their customers when problems arise and that is one of the things that puts DAZ above the other sites. Nevertheless there are still many issues that need to resolved to make shopping here and using the software a better experience. If I am wrong then please provide me with the answers to show me otherwise.
I understand the need to experiment, of course - I don't mind fiddling with sliders. That's how I learned Phototshop or Dreamweaver. But, those applications had documentation that explained what was what in the application so I wasn't left guessing at what a layer in Photoshop was, for example, or HOW to use it. Sure, by using layers, blending them w/other layers or using them to create masks, I got good at utilizing the layers feature but it certainly helped save a lot of time in blindly experimenting with layers to be able to get specifics about that feature directly from the documentation.
And the tutorial videos that people keep referring to are useful in an introductory sort of way yes, but please, they are not in depth enough to explain all the ins and out of using a particular lighting set-up, for example. let me quote some other posters:
...and etcetera.
I can see the intent of my message here is getting lost in the fog of people's preconceptions on this subject of documentation. So. What I will do is start a project and post questions to the forums as I go along that I hope will better explicate what it is I'm trying to point out in regards to my frustration at the lack of documentation. (I know, sigh of relief from users like Kendall Sears, Cypherfox, chohole, HeraldOfFire and FSMCDesigns - while I respect very much there opinions and history with using DAZ I believe there are many of us who are quite capable and experienced at using software, complex software, who would find great benefit in having better and more in-depth documentation). Hopefully, in the near future I can demonstrate this point better.
You guys and the "make art" button. I have been here for years (about 2 years longer than my date under my avatar). I have never once heard someone say they want a "Make Art" button, but that phrase keeps getting bandied about. Sigh
Its true there were very serious problems with the Store after conversion..... but Daz put resources needed to fix it.... and the store works very well currently.... with new functions not in the old store. Its also true that DAZ Studio 4 was released without an accompanying documentation manual.... but Daz has not put resources to fix it.... and we still don't have a manual... we just have what existed before and a hodgepodge of tutorials, videos, and forum threads.
I guess we have totally different expectations. I buy things all the time, got a couple items yesterday, I used to be a PC member for years. I see snafus on sale prices often and they are usually sorted out,so no biggie there. To be honest, when I read about issues users are having with pricing in the forums, many times it's because they are not reading the ad correctly or just rushing in. I try to be informed about all my purchases and have only had to return an item once. I love fastgrab sales and the new flash sales and always look forward to what is new when I get in from work. I have my list of vendors i prefer to buy from and a (short) list of ones I don't due to attitude, pricing or quality. I also buy from Rendo, CP, RDNA, and a handful of other CG shops, which means i have those experiences to base my experience here on also. I am also a content creator for this and other communities. I also work in retail management, so maybe I am a bit more understanding when there is an issue since i see how unreasonable and demanding customers can be daily.
I think it was here I first heard that term, LOL.
I really don't see or experience any of that. The store works great, the program works great and I have had no issues with customer service. If anything, I see the opposite. I used to be a poser only user, but I am in DS 90% of the time now, it just works for my workflow..
So, you can buy a Dreamlight plug-in like Light Dome 2, pop it in DS4 and it works? You can Google an old thread on the original forums, go there and not only find the thread you're looking for, but see attached pictures? You can got to the documentations page and find reference and user guides that aren't drafts dated 3/13/2012? And you could pay for an annual PC membership over the past year without paying the full, non-discounted price and having to ask Customer Service for a refund? It's one thing to look on the bright side, but if you can say 'yes" to all of those questions, you've been living in an alternate universe from the rest of us.
Just to be clear. I love DS4+ and think that both the program itself and Genesis are fantastic. That doesn't change the fact that for someone coming into 3D right now, DAZ is nowhere near as easy to learn about as Poser, and without a steady stream of new people coming in, the whole market will start to collapse as parts of the existing base move on to other things, lose interest or die. The kicker is that a huge portion of the problem is something that could easily be fixed by updating the online docs and either taking down or clearly marking the things that no longer work with the only version of the software that's been on the market for the last two years.
You guys and the "make art" button. I have been here for years (about 2 years longer than my date under my avatar). I have never once heard someone say they want a "Make Art" button, but that phrase keeps getting bandied about. Sigh
Thank you tsarist - reading through the forums on this topic I find that posters who argue for documentation are readily dismissed as lazy or impatient, best summed up by simplistic statements like: “Documentation? Who needs documentation, just open it and learn!” Sorry, I shouldn't have to defend my inquisitiveness at wanting to more thoroughly understand an application I spend a lot of time with and better managing that time to more productive ends.
When you come into a community forum to moan about the software or the company that is at the heart of that community you should expect to be not well received.
Yes the documentation is woefully lacking but complaining to the members of the forum will accomplish nothing.
The people on here have learned by methods other than documentation so they are bound to tell you that it is possible.
If you are worried about spending your time productively then stop flogging the dead horse.
There is no manual for DS4 and I doubt there ever will be.
There are no Daz employees in here on a regular basis so the people responsible will not hear you.
Don't use Dreamilght products since i render in Lux, but every other thing I have installed worked. I have no need to look for archived threads. I tend to bookmark onee if I feel it is important to me, missing images are normal for old threads in many forums. I don't look for documentation, so that doesn't apply to me and last but not least, I am aware some had issues with the PC membership and billing not to long ago, but it never affected me. Oh, and when I do have a problem, I don't assume everyone else does also (you say the rest of us, really?)
i am only responding to let new users know that there are other sides and experiences other than what some members post. I have DS open right now, guess I should knock on wood so it doesn't explode and then I would be in your universe.
BlueSF, I never said or implied that any user that wanted documentation was "lazy or impatient", i just have no need of it as much as you seem to have a need for it. Do you pull out the instructions when putting together a piece of furniture? I don't, but I know plenty that do. I wish there was enough documentation to make every user that wants it happy, but in place of it i also ask that if you are stuck on something ask and it can probably be sorted out for you here without it.
No, you did not say that or imply it. Others have but it goes along with the same thinking. Let me ask you FSMCDesigns, and graham james, a question: What are the correct settings I should use when rendering to Scripted 3Delight? Should I use Point-Based Occlusion, Outline or Standard example? I've used all 3 but get an FatalEerror message in my terminal indicating an Invalid type for token function (6).
Now, where do I go to learn me up some how-to for rendering to an RIB file? Got a video tutorial you can recommend? Not word one in the User Guide or Quick reference or Start-up Guides. Guess I need to spend an entire night slogging through various online forums for 3Delight and RenderMan to find an answer because, well, DAZ HAS NOTHING TO HELP ME OUT. Excuse me for being just a little let-down by this fact. Thank you.
As you suggest FSMCDesigns, I will post various questions as they come along, but they are many, and it just slows things down to have to go to the forums and hope I articulate the question right in order to get a helpful response. No one can tell me that documentation wouldn't help me in this situation or that I should only expect animosity for engaging this community in trying to sort this out.
No animosity from me. I completely agree that there needs to be something that gives instructions on how utilize the software. Granted it will still be trial and error, but at least you will know the steps involved if you had some documentation.
To me, the Daz Forums is the Manual. Ask a Question and most likely you will get an answer somebody already stumbled on, saving you time reading a thick manual or searching the net for answers and going via trial and error methods.
I understand what you are saying Zev0 and it is very true, but in the beginning of learning it can be very frustrating searching through the forums or waiting on an answer when the basics on how to use it should be documented, then when you want to dig a little deeper, the forum is an excellent place to hone one's skills.
Seems I spend so much time organizing and cataloging content I don't have the time to learn. I need to stop buying all of you guys beautiful work and get to know the software.
I would agree with you that the lack of documentation is frustrating. Those who don't seem to have a problem with it, seem to have been around for a long time and have alot of free time to experiment. I don't agree that the forums and videos are an adequete subsitutite. There seems to be a presumption that everyone has unlimited internet access. I don't have a lot of free time, so I will buy manuals, etc that I can use off line that explain stuff. I have asked on the forums but I don't have time to trawl the forums everytime I want to know something basic.
Greetings,
I paid around $49 during March Madness, and all I had to do was request a cancellation of my monthly membership, so that's a qualified 'yes', I guess?Rendering to RIB is only used when you plan to use a standalone 3Delight render engine or another Renderman compliant renderer. It essentially exports the render data to a file so it can be used with these other external applications. This can be useful for network or cloud rendering if you have the necessary software as the default Daz 3Delight isn't a fully licensed copy and does not support these features. RIB stands for Renderman Interface Binary, for the curious.
I recommend that you start using the normal non-scripted 3Delight render engine first. I'll list below the more important settings you need to know to help you get started.
Max Ray Trace Depth: Indicates how many times a reflection can bounce before the ray is destroyed. If you had a simple reflection in a mirror, you can pass with a single ray, but if you had a hall of mirrors you may need a lot more to get the desired effect. More ray trace depth means longer render times but higher quality.
Pixel Samples X+Y: This controls how much antialiasing is done to an image. Rather than simply use its nearest-neighbour 3Delight does a smart sample of the size stated, so if X and Y were 8, 3Delight would sample 64 pixels (8x8 square). This is done to keep things sharp while retaining quality by smoothing edges. Recommended values are 8 for both X and Y unless you're using depth of field camera settings, in which case you might want to consider going as high as 16.
Shadow Samples: If you use shadow maps (Individual lights can be set to use 'Shadow maps'), then this number indicates the quality of the shadows. The higher the number, the better the shadows, but the longer the map will take and the longer the render time.
Shading Rate: This is your main quality control. 3Delight tessellates polygons prior to rendering, and this tells the render engine how much to divide them up. This is essentially done per pixel, so a shading rate of 1 means it will tessellate to 1 polygon per pixel, while a shading rate of 2 means it will tessellate to 1 polygon for every 4 pixels (2x2 square). By lowering this figure you get a much higher quality image, but by increasing it the system does fewer tessellations and therefore gives lower quality. Low values result in higher render times while high values result in shorter render times but lower quality. Recommended value is 1 or lower for final quality renders.
I hope this at least clears some of the mystery up and gives you a better direction to start learning and mastering the engine. While I do sympathise with your desire for documentation (as you rightly pointed out, you're not alone in wanting proper documentation), there really is a wealth of knowledge out there if you know where to look, and the forums can be very accommodating for any specific queries you might have.
Best of luck.
Not very clever in general. Lifetime is not unlimited that's why the system of education was finally invented, including schoolbooks, tutorials, manuals and guides. Doing is just a part of studying, not the whole process substitution. An educated bet is also supposed to be a way of science and sometimes it is welcomed to see if a student's brains beloning to a genius during such activity. But why should the humankind spend ages learning everything from scratch? Or, if raise your opinion with absolute, should BlueSF have to start from making stone tools and setting fire? Well, in a couple thousands years he'll be able to set his first eniac to start coding something similar to DS. C'mon, DAZ has all the info on DS functionality, why thousands of people have to spend millions of man-hours figuring out same things (already known to a certain group of persons) that might be just read, understood and used?
Cypherfox
Not well got what was free for you. I, personally, paid for DS 4 Advanced. And STILL have NO manual for it. All that baby talks on the difficulty and complexity in creating guides and manuals are no more than just bullshit. It is part of commercial software creation whatever they do later up to setting it free and giving it away. And, well, if I can figure out basics of how DS works itself, the CCT (for example) is far more complex tool to loose time experimenting.
share the same feeling about this statement. the lack of poor info, not talking about the "basic pose a figure info" but more advanced stuff.
and why do we have to buy the more advanced info, why is this not free like the basic info?
one of my personal reasons stop buying products here.
Everyone learns from scratch, but we learn in different ways and at different rates. In education, people learn best by doing and by example. It's how babies learn to walk and talk, how we learn arithmetic and science. We're always following someone's example, whether it's a tutorial, an experiment or simply hearing about other's experiences. A manual isn't a panacea to understanding, it just guides you on the functions of the software and how it operates. Truly getting to grips with the software comes with practice, patience and experience.
Still, I genuinely feel that a manual for Daz Studio is long overdue and it might be high time to fix that issue once and for all. If Daz won't create documentation for their software, then perhaps we as a community can put our heads together and create a manual for future users.
Bears repeating over and over again. However, it will do no good. Welcome to the world of DAZ, and actually welcome to the modern world where amateurish products without documentation are the norm. There is no professionalism anymore. Documentation is a lost art, kind of like carving gargoyles on cathedrals.
Some might argue that we don't need gargoyles or cathedrals anymore but that doesn't keep us old farts from lamenting.