How to emulate B&W film light response when using IRay?
thrain9
Posts: 103
How to emulate B&W film light response when using IRay?
As said above I want to find the settings that will allow me to accomplish this...
Note: Setting the saturation bar to zero in render settings>tone mapping is not the same thing... not even close.
If you don't know about b&w film response to light... well I won't do that here, it is a complex set of photo-chemical and chemical reactions that occur. The reason I want to try to do this is the specific look of a very narrow range of light response of the film is compressing the full natural (read HDR) light which creates a unique look to black and white photography that is extremely tricky using digital techniques.
I am experimenting, but any suggestions will be helpful.
thanks.
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This could easily be done post. There are also a few render settings that can be purchased if your inclined to save the time that will do this. I have used both post methods via gimp and also using the render presets that I found in the marketplace, all with equal results.
The best recent purchase I have made in years for Photoshop is the NIK filter collection (~$60). It does wonders for vintage film looks and -good- monochromatic conversion, with many real-world film effects built in to select from.
I always render in color, and do all of my monochromatic/vintage work in post. Below is an example of one such render done in color and converted in post -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/130044876@N04/43135438805/in/dateposted/
@thrain9 ""B&W film light response"
Not a helpful phrase. Which film are you thinking of? Each of the multitude of B&W films has a different reponse and characteristic look. However, post is the only way you'll get close to the look you're probably after.
I'll differ from @CGHipster and say that I believe none of the B&W render presets available emulate (very well) any specific film. I also don't believe they are intended to do same. Not to say there aren't some attractive monochrome render settings.
Then again, I've only been a photographer for 35+ years.
First Thanks for the answers.
Honestly I am doing it this way as much to get better with Iray settings as to get "the look".
As far as doing it in post, my eyes always deceive me. I get something that looks good with a filter, adjustment layers, etc. but when I get it all together, the final output is a long way from what I see in my mind (and Ansel Adams prints too). Lack of skill may be the problem, but before I admit that - I want to get to the source of the look, the film response to light, and the chemical reaction of development. Most likely over thinking it.
@Fastbike1 - nice to see another photographer here, I spent 20 years in a darkroom or behind the lens myself. The specific look I want is the photojournalist type shots on pushed Tri-x complete with the large variation of grain and nearly blown Hi lites etc. Think Cartier Breson , Leica M4,-- that sort of photograph. Not typical of more modern work, that's for sure.
@melissastjames - thanks for the link, never have enough good PS filters
It may be nothing but a time sink, because I agree with both of you, we have a lot of tools available that can fake it, and most people will never notice the difference. Maybe that is the best I can hope for, but first I have to prove to myself that either it can't be done, I can't do it, or it doesn't matter.
Very good images on your site - thanks for sharing. The NIK filter collection looks pretty close to what I was after on my own, certainly worth a 30 day free trial.
Iray isn't designed to emulate real world film/camera properties so you're probably not going to achieve what you want with just Iray itself. You'll want to look for a plugin for Photoshop or a compositor (After Effects, DaVinci Resolve, Fusion, Nuke, Natron, etc.) that specifically emulates film/camera looks.
Yeah, for the most part I look to get everything nice and even and well-lit with IRAY...and then do most of my color/contrast/bloom adjustments in post.
Thanks! I'm relatively new to DAZ, but I've been modding and screenshoting video games for years...and before that came photography (though after the digital craze began, so I never did actual film work).
You would probably need a specific Iray camera shader to accomplish this as the default ones we have in Daz Studio aren't quite good enough.You might want to take a look at the Iray Lens FX product. It's on my wishlist, but I haven't picked it up yet.
Just turn the saturation down to zero and blow out the lighting via various methods, either increasing lighting strength or in the Tone Mapping or in the Camera Settings. That's easy & cheap if you have an expensive iRay capable video card by nVidia. Add a little blur via the various filters or in post.
Or study how to translate real B&W film & camera settings to iRay onlyt to find that it doesn't really work because the light doesn't bounce around enough in iRay like it does in nature.
https://www.daz3d.com/film-noir-portrait-studio
this pack is great as a support for b&w. I think you can get far especially with using the hightlights and shadows settings in tone mapping. But I agree some post work will be necessary.
@nonesuch00 "it doesn't really work because the light doesn't bounce around enough in iRay like it does in nature."
Really (not). The default for iray is infinite bounces until convergence.
@thrain9 " nice to see another photographer here, I spent 20 years in a darkroom or behind the lens myself. The specific look I want is the photojournalist type shots on pushed Tri-x complete with the large variation of grain and nearly blown Hi lites etc. Think Cartier Breson , Leica M4,-- that sort of photograph. Not typical of more modern work, that's for sure."
Man, if you can pull that off in Studio Iray, I will bow to your creative awesomeness (and beg for your settings)
Definitely just go post. I have seen several Tri-X emulators that will do that well enough. Iray won't be able to get the grain structure you want. People on the forum sometimes conflate Iray noise with grain, but Iray definitely doesn't give film like grain. Especially not Tri-X pushed to 800 or 1600.
Is the Daz site having server problems? took me 20 minutes before I could log in ..;.
Anyway lots of good ideas here folks.l appreciate it a lot.
@Paintbox - I have film noir portrait studio in my runtime, and it is quite useful. It is not the 'does it all" solution of course, which is part of the reason for looking for other approaches.
@nonesuch00 - just turning down saturation and adding bloom and extreme contrasts works - sort of - I want to avoid that standard if possible. As far as light bouncing around enough in Iray scenes - you are partly right. the algorithms used require objects throughout the 'entire' scene to bounce from, and most of us don't have computers that can handle the load. and of course the algorithms are digital simulations of light responses, not real ones. So the starting point we work with isn't the real world at all.
@JohnnyRay - How did I miss that one! thanks, wishlist bound (if Daz site will let me...drat)
@RobotHeadArt -Never though of compositors - good list, appreciate the idea (my wallet may not be as appreciative... but it will get over it
)
This could easily be done post.
I bought this product, it is one of the ones I refer to. I'm definitely not a photographer but a good friend of mine has been for about 20 years and he thinks the results are quite nice even if not as good as what he gets with real film.
There is a free version of DaVinci Resolve and Fusion, Natron is open source and free, and there is a limited non-commercial version of Nuke.