DressShop -- Review Thread
Visioneer
Posts: 158
I just bought this program last night. Despite what the developer says, it's not a modeling program in the traditional sense of the word, the functionality is more in tune with a mesh editing program (and in my humble opinion, even that is a bit of a stretch as functionality is really quite basic.) Being accustomed to using traditional modeling programs, such as Modo and 3DS Max, I was thinking that this program would be handy in perhaps speeding up my workflow. I am largely disappointed with this program, and feel I should have researched the program more in-depth before I made the purchase. Don't get me wrong, there are a couple good things about this program, but by and large, I don't believe that I will find much use for it. As for requesting a refund on it? Well, that doesn't seem very fair to me. I took a chance when I bought the product, and I "hemmed" and "hawwed" for a good 45 minutes before I decided to add it to my cart.
This is the case where I think I will start a small review for the product, trying to be as objective as possible.
DressShop allows the user to modify preexisting meshes with a limited number of tools, namely "Cut" and "Shape." The "Cut" tool has a few different settings that can changed to alter the way "Cut" performs. The options are Mirror, which mirrors the cut along the axis of the model being edited, and duplicate, which will make a copy of highlighted part of the mesh. This is the primary method of editing the mesh to create the design of the clothes you want.
The "Shape" tab houses a few tools as well, "Shape," "Stretch," and "Mirror." Mirror affects the symmetry of the Shape tool. The shape tool, in functionality, operates much like a scale tool, which scales the area of affect defined by the user. The stretch tool operates in a fashion similar to scale with an axis constraint.
Editing (or modeling as the developers call it) a mesh is done primarily with the cut tool, which changes the shape of the base mesh based on the cuts. Cutting and saving out cuts is also used to define material zones of the model to be modified in DAZ Studio. The tool has 3 different types of lines that can be used, a straight line, a polytool, and a arc tool, which is like a smooth curve cut tool. The tools, while basic in functionality, work pretty well for the most part. The workflow is easy to get down, even saving out the cutout parts of the model.
The documentation is largely a rehash of the video tutorials the developer has placed on YouTube, though some of the language (not foul language or anything, just the way it is written) of the document seems pretty passive-aggressive and sometimes loses the professional tone manuals should strive to maintain. When reading the manual, I couldn't help but get the feeling that the writer of it had undertones of "How many times do I have to explain this? Its not my fault you're stupid and don't understand our program." This is conveyed by underlines and boldings of non-key statements throughout the document. One particular instance that comes to mind was in the description of the Stretch tool, which is written as: This tool is different from "Shape," which has an unnecessary underline under different. After all, why would a program include a function that is identical to another one within the same program?
Final Opinion: While DressShop isn't a "bad" program per se, as I can definitely see the merits of the program for those that want to make their own clothes for Genesis, but don't have an inkling of modeling skill, and don't mind the particularly simplistic approach, it's not really that "good" of a program, either. I must, again, define this program closer to mesh editing, versus the modeling program that the developer states it as being. I bought this program at $25, thanks to the current DAZ sale, and even at that price, I feel that it is a bit overpriced. I'm not sure I can justify for anyone to pay for this program at the full $50 price tag. If you are serious about making clothes for your DAZ character's, I would strongly suggest you take the extra time, learn to work with Blender, and make use of the infinitely more powerful tools available in that suite. (Or even Hexagon or Carrara)
In my opinion, it would be far more advantageous if you spend the $50 on a quality book or video series on development in a traditional modeling program than buying this software. Yes, it takes more time to learn a traditional package, but the payoff is also greater in the long run. Regardless of what you choose, I wish you the best of luck!
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Comments
I feel that people complaining about this not being a full 'modeller" is doing this a disservice.
This program does what, far as I know, no other program does. I don't know any program that lets me draw lines on something, cut it, shape it, and weld it in under a minute.
YOU CAN MAKE AN ENTIRE OUTFIT IN MINUTES.
No, you're not "modelling" an outfit from scratch- you need a starter mesh to work with- kindly provided for genesis in this set. I have used Joe Quick's fantastic starter meshes with this (export them to bryce size, before importing into dress shop) and had fantastic results. I made that maid outift you can see in the promo. Apron and dress.
What else can you do?
The other day i was sculpting things, and realized two things didn't fit together right. ARG!
Rather than go back and start from scratch, I sent them into dress shop, cut off the parts I messed up, and exported. WHEE. :)
Oh and this is great and fast way to make SURFACES. In DS you have th surface editor tool. Which is great, but often time consuming.
As an experiment, i took an outfit, removed the surfaces, pulled it into dress shop, cut it up, put it back together and sent back to DS- this time with my own surfaces. WHEE!
Hmm I love these stockings, but I want to put holes in them and i dont want to mess with mapping. Pull them in dress shop, cut holes, send back. WHEE!
Oh, this is a lovely dress! only now i want to make it look all ragged and zombie like (halloween and all that, ya'know?) so I pull it into dress Shop, cut a nice ragged edge off and some nice holes all over it- send it back.
Better yet, i cut my own ragged dress, send it back, slap a shader on it, stack some of the grime and blood shaders, and bam, awesome halloween outfit.
And don't be limited to just clothing.
I want a crazy bowl or vase!! Export primitive to bryce. Import to Dress Shop. Cut and shape. Send to DS. Wow! 20 second art piece.
Seriously, this has SO much potential.
Think about what it CAN do, that other programs CAN'T do. Yes, we know, its not a full modeler. What it IS, is a super speedy tool of convenience for fast adaptation.
I could certainly model the same things in a full modeller, but definite not in mere seconds.
This program is sheer brilliance.
I have to say that stuff like this, it changes the whole game. It should never be overlooked for what it offers and for this great of a price.
I want a crazy bowl or vase!! Open traditional modeler, build spline cross-section, lathe, add noise modifier, or bend, or FFD, or manually edit verts, or all. Send to DS. Wow! 10 second art piece.
The only problem is, other modelers CAN do all this. And in some cases better. In my opinion (and it is simply my opinion,) someone that is considering purchasing this Utility is probably better off (in the long run) investing in learning a 3D package, using the money they would have spent making this purchase.
This program is sheer brilliance.
I have to say that stuff like this, it changes the whole game. It should never be overlooked for what it offers and for this great of a price.
I disagree. This program hardly offers anything new, there are many like it out there that do the same thing, sometimes for a similar price tag, sometimes for higher. Those are hardly "game changers" themselves. Now, what WOULD be a game changer is if the developers added dynamic cloth simulation (for realistic folds and drape) and were able to finally crack the code to Optitex's proprietary dynamic cloth simulation, so we could export any clothing to behave as dynamic cloth in DS, without having to kick down the $10K price tag for Optitex's software (the last price they quoted to me.) THAT would be a game changer. THAT would more than justify the $50. In fact, I would dare to say that on that ability alone would reasonably triple to quintuple the value of the software, and $250 for it would be a VERY reasonable price tag.
However, as the program stands now, I could not, in good conscience, recommend it to anyone without first advising them of the pitfalls of the software. Again, I'm not returning the software, and requesting a refund, though I feel I would be justified in doing so. I chose to make the purchase, and I choose to stand by that purchase. But, that does not mean I feel it was a wise purchase, nor does it mean that I should sing the praises of a program that, in my opinion, isn't yet up to snuff, and the entire functionality of the program is completely reliant on the import of already existing models. Even still, it is an amusing little toy, and undoubtedly some will find it useful, but it is little more than a toy. If the developers decide to read what others have to say about the program, not just the "ego stroking" reviews, they may find some legitimate issues they may want to consider tackling.
If I were to release a product in the DAZ Store, I would want someone to seriously look for all the flaws, for every one person that sang praises of the product. If the complaints were legitimate, and within my power to correct, I would do everything in my power to correct them. If the complaints were not relevant to the scope of the product, I would still have the decency to open a discussion with the individuals voicing their complaint, and if I could not find a solution to their issue, point them towards the direction that they could find the solution.
By the way: he compared it to Blender too - which is absolutely free.
Just to stay fair...
I think it was your wording ... it may have been the "This program does what, far as I know, no other program does." that triggered his/her response. :)
What math is there? The curves in 3DS Max (by far my favorite modeling program, personal preference) behave far more predictably than many other programs (except Maya,) add a couple modifiers, and you are good to go. Not only is it NOT dependent on user knowledge of mathematics, it is simple as one can get short of giving voice commands to a computer to do it for you. In my less than humble opinion, laziness is not an excuse for ignorance.
What can't those other uber expensive modelers do?
Sell for $25 right now.
And neither will DressShop, for much longer. In case you forgot, the default price of the program is $49.95, rounded to $50. Of course, I guess a completely free 30 demo of 3DS Max or Maya costs way more than $25. I guess the ENORMOUS hobby discount Autodesk provides for the unemployed and students (to the point of $125) doesn't say much about pricing, either. Or I guess the one month commercial subscription price of $99 doesn't say much about the affordability of the program? Or again, Blender, which you keep forgetting I mentioned frequently, is free, all the time. I'd say that's less than $25, and WAY less than $50.
Because they suit different people and different price points.
It makes perfect sense to compare. Regardless of the price of a software, capabilities were the focus of the conversation. You had made the claim that DressShop can do what "no other program you know of can do." I was refuting that fact. Now the focus of the conversation is largely on price point, since that seems to be the shift of the conversation. I stand by my claim that a user would be doing themselves a great bit of a favor in choosing to invest in learning a traditional modeler to exploit the maximum amount of usefulness from the program of their choice, rather than invest in this utility.
With that said, DressShop is PERFECT for a beginner, but at the same time, does a tremendous "disservice" to them. Again, the entire functionality of the program is largely limited to the use of a base mesh. Don't even get me started on interaction with the interface, that's a whole other ball game. I liken the DressShop experience to the old adage "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." DressShop is closer to giving a "man" a "fish," than it is "teaching" a "man" to "fish." Yes, modeling programs have a learning curve, as does any pursuit worth doing. But the payoff is largely more beneficial. Artists don't learn to draw in a day, musicians take more than a week to learn to play an instrument, humans take longer than a month to learn to speak. Here's a small list of other things that have a learning curve, that pay off in the long run:
Walking, riding a bike, writing, reading, playing a new video game, sign language, learning a new job, potty training, cooking, programming, singing, martial arts, yoga, cleaning (effectively), sewing, sports, ballet, filmography, psychology, brain surgery. Yes, they all have varying degrees of difficulty to learn, but anything worthwhile usually does. Anyone can poop or urinate in their pants, it doesn't take much effort to breathe (illnesses and conditions not withstanding,) and laying on the ground doesn't take a lot of know how. DressShop in my opinion, is just another step in the quest to find the elusive "make art" button. As I had stated in a prior post, I'm not going to say that DressShop is a "bad" program, but I am not going to say it is a particularly "good" one, either. If the user has no desire to build a useful and marketable skill set, and instead wants to just slice and dice, then yes, this program is PERFECT for them. Absolutely, 100%. However, if the user is considering purchasing this product because they think it will lead them to a successful spot on the market place, I feel that they should at least be informed about the shortcomings of this piece of software, and then provided with directions to other, more viable software, which allows them to make an informed decision on what they need and are looking for.
I see no reason to defend this software or "ego stroke" the developers, there are certainly much room for improvement in the software, and it is hardly the "end all" of clothing design for DAZ Studio. I simply want to give an alternate opinion of someone that does not agree that this program is incredible, and I shared why. What does this program have? Ease of use: Check. Low Price Point: Check. Low Price Point versus Functionality: Not so much.
Well said Visioneer. Agree with every word!
I won't waste my money on buying it!
but we don't care if you do or not .
but we don't care if you do or not .
you don't, i do care
agree with visioneer and wilmap
Wendy,
Aren't you selling 3D dresses for Genesis?
Hard to be unbiased with such conflict...
My advice is: relax - no threat to your business. DressShop is not for those who want to create or buy commercial garment.
It is for those of us who love to watch Project Runway but may not have the skill/time/money to master "professional" modelers that you guys are using. Just saying...
NO, I don't SELL my Genesis clothing, I give it all away for FREE
I don't want people to think they can do so much with program when they can't. I said all along that this was not a modelling program, but you insisted that it was.
Actually the people saying modeller over and over are the ones criticizing.... Most of the text in the store description, the thread official description, and the tutorials are along the lines of "editing the ready mesh" and "now we are ready to edit the mesh" and so on.
Wendy, I love your outfits- it's helped me a lot during a time of financial instability (I was denied a work permit, and therefore cannot legally work where I live, but that's a boring story reall). I have tried to learn modelling and its hard to get my mind around things that well, seem math-based to me. Like a lot of the stuff in Hexagon.
I like DressShop. Yeah, I'm using ready meshes. Yeah my stuff isn't designer. It may never be nice enough for me to share, especially with a lot of folks these days who love to troll and criticize freebies. But it's thrilling to be able to look at a mesh, cut it apart and put it together, in a very simple, straight forward, no learning-curve, anyone-can-do it way. that's what makes Dress Shop different. It's not the same thing as a super modelling program, it wont get the same amount of details or results. But it is a new concept, well thought out and created that lets those of us who want to play with quick and simple clothes that we can "make" ourselves.
This program doesn't tout itself as a program of all things. It's description and tuturials (all available online) are honest and transparent with no deceptive claims. It shows itself as a clothing mesh editor, which is exactly what it is.
None of the description in the store page says modeller, and honestly you may be getting that term from me saying it/using it "incorrectly." i've already explained that to me, it does do some simple modelling, but you clearly don't see it that way so we will simply disagree on that matter. It doesn't seem to be very relevant to the discussion of dress shop, if its only arguing about the term I personally used to describe the program. I'm truly truly sorry if my terminology has confused or offended people (as it obviously has- my sincere apologies). The store description never once says modeller- it clearly says this as the program's function:
"Unlike other applications, DressShop offers three templates that the user can alter, cut, shape and stretch to create a new, unique design."
Directly from the store page. Very straight forward and clear about why Dress Shop is different and how it works.
So hopefully we can move on to more helpful discussion than my failure to use apt vocabulary. :-/
Actually, in the commercial post, Abalone LLC stated it was a modeler. Lol.
Actually, in the commercial post, Abalone LLC stated it was a modeler. Lol.
The word model or modelling was not used by Abalone until PAGE 6 in reference to the VIDEOS, not even to the program. The commercial post, the store text- does NOT say modeller. What it DOES say is that it is for working with meshes to cut and shape them.
And regardless of that, it doesn't change that the store text, and the first several pages of the thread CLEARLY explain (and if you still were stumped, the documentation and videos were online) what he said from the start, and repeatedly, that this program was for modifying pre-made meshes. So no, that first commercial post doesn't say modeler. And I truly hope you're not going to be so adamant about not using the word "modeler" or models that it would offend if i say "hey look at the model dress I made" because you'd end up saying "that's not really a MODEL." I feel like that's what you're trying to say, that what we do is less 'real' because its from pre-made starter meshes. Hope what I just said makes sense.
Debating over the term 'modeler' doesn't change the program. it's not advertised as modeling program in the store, nor the first several pages. I personally, consider myself to be modelling when I work in DressShop, and I'm not calling it anything else even if you think its not "real" modelling. This is a fantastic tool for ease of use, fast turn over, and almost zero learning curve. Yes i model using pre-existing meshes, and i'll keep calling it that. You won't. I'll call it a day.
Absolutely. Borderline ad hominem attacks don't change the fact that consumers deserve to know about the limitations of a program, just as much as they deserve to know about the strengths. I think it is fair to say that there are some who would be disappointed by the functionality of the program. Not all, I'm sure, but some. That being said, regardless of how much editing you make to a mesh, it is still a model. So if you showed off a dress that you created using Dress Shop, like your Maid Outfit, I'd say "Good job!" And, even if you didn't want it, I'd offer some critiques, offer some advice on how you could fix it, if you were so inclined, and go about my merry way. Regardless of how it is formed, a model will still be a model. Unless you deleted everything down to a face, then its pretty much just a polygon. Lol.
Debating over the term 'modeler' affects the perception of the program. If someone is perusing the forums, reading every post for the software, they may very well see the developer calling the program a modeler (included two instances of screen cap) and think "Oh boy, score!" If they read the product features tab that read "DressShop allows designers to create and export new garments using these tools. Textures are added in separate application, such as DAZ Studio or Poser" depending on the way it is read, could be a bit misleading. That was one of the points I was trying to express. But, I suppose I could go shape Genny and hide body parts and call it modeling. Lol. (Joke, sorry, couldn't help it.)
ZBrush: Clipping Tools
3DS Max: Cut Tool, Boolean Operators, Vertex editing, Polygon level editing, to name a few.
Modo: Cut tool, Boolean Operators, Vertex Editing, Polygon Level editing, to name a few.
Maya: Same as above.
Blender: Same as above.
Photoshop: Alpha maps.
Letssee:
...699$
...3,675$
...999$
...3,675$
...Free but a very steep learning curve due to inconsistencies as to how tools work, inconsistent defaults, and lack of an intuitive UI as well as a standard toolbox/toolobar.
...700$
...vs. Dress Shop: 49.95$ (24.98$ on sale for PC members) + intuitive learning curve.
In comparison, I think that's pretty good for a relatively inexpensive easy to learn/use utility.
I still say (and hopefully it won't be deleted again), that until it has cloth simulation it's of limited use as all it does is cut holes in a limited number of preset meshes which gives the clothes made with it a cookie cutter appearance.
There are a number of open source cloth simulation routines so hopefully one of them will be employed in a future update. If I could import my own mesh and use this to run the simulation on the mesh and export it then I'd definitely buy it. Right now it doesn't do anything I can't easily do to my own meshes in Hexagon.
I suppose it's useful for people who don't have any modelling skills at all, but the number of outfits it can make is pretty limited.
There are a number of open source cloth simulation routines so hopefully one of them will be employed in a future update. If I could import my own mesh and use this to run the simulation on the mesh and export it then I'd definitely buy it. Right now it doesn't do anything I can't easily do to my own meshes in Hexagon.
I suppose it's useful for people who don't have any modelling skills at all, but the number of outfits it can make is pretty limited.
Yeah, I'm sure it was probably an oversight when the Admins decided to remove my review and move it to its own thread. Some of the posts started getting personal between the posters, and your statements could have been lost in the kerfuffle.
Not much of a review thread, this... More an expose of people's hobby horses...
That might be true, it got a bit derailed from the original post. I will say that Abalone did a great job fixing outlying problems (such as UV maps) that came up after the release. I still stand by my original review, wholeheartedly, if you are looking for a program akin to Marvellous Designer or Optitex, you won't find it with Dress Shop. However, if you are looking for something that is easy to use and something that you can either use for "quick concepting" or if you have a lack of 3D skill, and have no intention of learning (you'd rather just 'get up and go') then Dress Shop is a fantastic, easy to use program with a relatively small learning curve.
And DressShop is now available as a fully-functional 15-day FREE trial at:
http://abalonellc.com/dressshop2.html
We offer this FREE trial to encourage people to enter My Runway competition:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/30294/
That's why DressShop is now available as a fully-functional 15-day FREE trial at:
http://abalonellc.com/dressshop2.html
We offer this FREE trial to encourage people to enter My Runway competition:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/30294/
Here's my comment. I don't know how to model clothes. So I read the OP, and the posts further down, and I think that this product may be useful to me, after reading the expert discussion, and then viewing the video tutorial.
I didn't not understand the distinction of a mesh versus model, and at this point, it's not too important to me. I'm trying to learn other things in 3d graphics like lighting effects upon skin. If this program enables me to get a jacket on a model closer to the way I'd like to see one, then this may be the right program for me.
I am intrigued by the possibility of making a lapel and pocket jacket for example with relatively few steps. I am particularly interested in the shoulders of garments. I don't understand why most sleeved garments have the pudgy rounded shoulders usually with the seams below the shoulder joint instead of vertical. Yes, if someone in real life wears a shirt that is too large, it will droop the shoulder seams down against the arm. But I'd like to have a better fit. Maybe that's my ignorance, but why not try it?
And today I learned about "push" in DAZ from the video. I think that alone made reading this review was worthwhile. Just to show that there is always something to learn from a discussion but not always quite the way the posts start out.
edited to add: Oh dear. It appears the program is geared to later Genesis versions I don't have and am not planning to get soon. I just have the Genesis 1 from 4.0. The program will support importing an object for V4 but lost me with the comment about matching polygons. I don't know what that is. Perhaps I'll try it later.
Based on what you just said, IceScribe, Dress Shop would be perfect for you. I would implore you to try out the 15 day trial and see if it suits your needs (I would also suggest entering into Abalone's contest.) In terms of mesh versus model, its really just a technicality. However, when you are modeling, one typically goes further than just editing a mesh. Dress Shop allows you to edit meshes, but doesn't allow you the ability to model in the traditional sense of the word. When working with Dress Shop, while you can duplicate geometry based on cuts you've made, you're not really creating "new" geometry. One also has to be careful, because the models exported (if care is not taken) can look a significant amount like clothing made of paper. But, in all honesty, that is a problem that can occur in traditional modeling programs as well, if you aren't versed in making thickness for clothing.
@Visioneer,
thank you for the suggestion. I went ahead and downloaded the trial demo.
If you don't mind, I'd like to see what you come up with using it, so I certainly hope you share.
I did download the free trial and ran into a couple of problems. One is that holding Shift as instructed to get a straight cut line didn't work for me. I also had problems with getting the mannequin to show, which may have to do something with the required scale. Another issue I had is that a cut is symmetrical front and back. The dress design I tried to model has a neckline that is deeper in the front than in the back and it's not clear to me how to do that.
I was looking at Marvelous Designer but the price is a bit out-of-range ($600), so I guess I'll just have to start learning how to do clothes myself.
In order to get the Mannequin working, export your Genesis figure using the obj export, with settings set to Bryce export. You can then import the mannequin in the accessories tab. I'm not entirely certain, but before you export, I believe you want Genesis set to Resolution Base, Subdiv 0. But don't quote me on that, I never use a mannequin for Dress Shop.
In order to avoid the problems with the back being cut along with the front, using the cut tool, bisect the model vertically (splitting it into a front and back) and save the "back" piece. Hide the back, so your cuts will only affect the front (visible) portion of the model. After the cut is made, return visibility to the back piece, and make the cut in it to match the neckline where the front and back intersect (so you don't get the odd artifact of the front neckline not matching up with the back.)
If you need me to go more into depth on this, please let me know.
Thanks Visioneer, I'll try the tip with hiding the back. I also did remember about importing using the Bryce scale and now the mannequin is visible. However, the mannequin is too short in comparison (I have an average, not a tall woman), so I'll have to play with her length to make it fit.
At this point, I'm just experimenting (I never made clothes before), and I thought the idea of the mannequin was kind of useful, especially to get the dress length and shape right.