Lizy Hair: why oh why, no bones?

IsaacNewton

I really like the Lizy Hair hair piece, however, it is a pigtails sytle and pigtails move about a lot. The tails need bones to be really useful. There are morphs to move the tails a bit (though the descriptions are somewhat unclear, to me at least), but the morphs alone are (IMO) insufficient for many poses, particularly if the character is holding a tail. In that case the tail needs to bend sharply over the hand (unless the tail is wired up).

So please,  EmmaAndJordi would you consider updating the product with bones in the tails? Please let me know soon so I have the option of returning the product if there will not be an update. I like Lizy Hair, but without bones in the tails it's of very limited use to me.

frankrblow

I had this wishlisted, but without an ability to adjust the tails, it's a no-sale. Dumped. I could add bones, etc myself, but life is too short.

IsaacNewton

As I mentioned, there are movement morphs, but IMO they are insufficient. The tails really need bones. 

Male-M3dia

If you need more movement with the tails, you could use a deformer or create a morph to handle that. I would think bones would be unnecessary, especially since it seems you don't even have the product to verify whether it is an actual problem or not.

IsaacNewton

Male-M3dia said:

If you need more movement with the tails, you could use a deformer or create a morph to handle that. I would think bones would be unnecessary, especially since it seems you don't even have the product to verify whether it is an actual problem or not.

Yes, I could create a morph for each new pose using deformers or, much more conveniently, in ZBrush. I could also try to make my own Hair figure, but I chose to spend money to buy an existing product, supporting the PA and DAZ3d; I'm sure you will appreciate that. In answer to your second point, I refer to my original post "Please let me know soon so I have the option of returning the product if there will not be an update." I do have the product and I can assure you that it is a problem; otherwise I would not have made the original post.

WendyLuvsCatz

maybe it has bones did you actually buy it? Maybe thread title should ask does it have bones 

IsaacNewton

Wendy_Carrara said:

maybe it has bones did you actually buy it? Maybe thread title should ask does it have bones 

Yes I did buy it and no it does not have bones in the tails, as I stated in the post immediately before yours!

Male-M3dia

Your options would then be to create a morph or a deformer or return it. The product is already finished; I would think re-rigging a product (especially TWO easy pose chains) would be out of scope for an update since large updates are at a loss (especially taking it back through QA) product when compared to starting a whole new product.

IsaacNewton

Male-M3dia said:

Your options would then be to create a morph or a deformer or return it. The product is already finished; I would think re-rigging a product (especially TWO easy pose chains) would be out of scope for an update since large updates are at a loss (especially taking it back through QA) product when compared to starting a whole new product.

I think you are right. I'll just return it. Perhaps lower sales for the reason of lack of bones in the tails will encourage the PA and possibly other PAs making hair with tails, to put bones in the tails in future projects.

Male-M3dia

IsaacNewton said:

Male-M3dia said:

Your options would then be to create a morph or a deformer or return it. The product is already finished; I would think re-rigging a product (especially TWO easy pose chains) would be out of scope for an update since large updates are at a loss (especially taking it back through QA) product when compared to starting a whole new product.

I think you are right. I'll just return it. Perhaps lower sales for the reason of lack of bones in the tails will encourage the PA and possibly other PAs making hair with tails, to put bones in the tails in future projects.

I doubt that will affect sales, considering it's currently sitting high on the most popular list in the store. It just doesn't suit your needs and one person can't be considered the voice for everyone, as the most popular list shows.

EmmaAndJordi

Hi Isaac Newton. Thanks for your comment, please understand that we don't follow the forums, so we got this only by chance. It would be more effective to send us an email or message us. Otherwise we may most surely not see it.

Thanks also to Male-M3dia, all what you said is right.

We're sorry the product was not good for what you intented to do. It has movement and style morphs for each tail but it doesn't have bones.When we use bones, we usually say it in the description.

When doing tails or similar, bones provide great movement, indeed. But what happens with bones is that if you would like to use it for another figure via the Auto-Fit, be it a future generation figure or Genesis 3 or 2, they won't be converted.
So the option for us is: make bones and make the hair only usable in the current released newest base figure, or make morphs and make it usable for past and future figures.

For the thing you wanted to do, it would work with bones only if they are many bones in each tail, and with sharp angle of movement. Not always are done that way, as most bones are made to curve hair smoothly. Maybe it is a special case that should be modeled for the occasion.

Most customers prefer compatibility. What we've seen is that customers don't specially appreciate bones. But of course if we see people prefer maximum movement instead of compatibility, we will use bones, or maybe both.

But for already released hairs, we can't update, sorry, because of what Male-M3dia said. But we can do it for future ones.

 

IsaacNewton

Male-M3dia said:

 

EmmaAndJordi said:

Hi Isaac Newton. Thanks for your comment, please understand that we don't follow the forums, so we got this only by chance. It would be more effective to send us an email or message us. Otherwise we may most surely not see it.

Thanks also to Male-M3dia, all what you said is right.

We're sorry the product was not good for what you intented to do. It has movement and style morphs for each tail but it doesn't have bones.When we use bones, we usually say it in the description.

When doing tails or similar, bones provide great movement, indeed. But what happens with bones is that if you would like to use it for another figure via the Auto-Fit, be it a future generation figure or Genesis 3 or 2, they won't be converted.
So the option for us is: make bones and make the hair only usable in the current released newest base figure, or make morphs and make it usable for past and future figures.

For the thing you wanted to do, it would work with bones only if they are many bones in each tail, and with sharp angle of movement. Not always are done that way, as most bones are made to curve hair smoothly. Maybe it is a special case that should be modeled for the occasion.

Most customers prefer compatibility. What we've seen is that customers don't specially appreciate bones. But of course if we see people prefer maximum movement instead of compatibility, we will use bones, or maybe both.

But for already released hairs, we can't update, sorry, because of what Male-M3dia said. But we can do it for future ones.

 

Hi EmmaAndJordi,

Thanks for your reply. I understand that you want people to be able to one-click fit the hair to other figures and have sacrificed some extra movement potential to do this by using movement morphs rather than bones. I rarely use autofit for hair; for me it is a couple of minutes work to position and then parent the hair to the figure's head, compared to potentially hours of work to make the morphs I need if there are no bones (in tails). It seems that on this occassion our goals are different; my bad luck.

I will keep a look out for your future releases because I think the quality of your work is very good. Success with Lizy Hair.

EmmaAndJordi

IsaacNewton said:

 

I will keep a look out for your future releases because I think the quality of your work is very good. Success with Lizy Hair.

Thank you Isaac. We will see if we can do both things in other future hairs with braids or tails, maybe to get more movement or fullfill all the needs.

WendyLuvsCatz

IsaacNewton said:

Male-M3dia said:

 

EmmaAndJordi said:

Hi Isaac Newton. Thanks for your comment, please understand that we don't follow the forums, so we got this only by chance. It would be more effective to send us an email or message us. Otherwise we may most surely not see it.

Thanks also to Male-M3dia, all what you said is right.

We're sorry the product was not good for what you intented to do. It has movement and style morphs for each tail but it doesn't have bones.When we use bones, we usually say it in the description.

When doing tails or similar, bones provide great movement, indeed. But what happens with bones is that if you would like to use it for another figure via the Auto-Fit, be it a future generation figure or Genesis 3 or 2, they won't be converted.
So the option for us is: make bones and make the hair only usable in the current released newest base figure, or make morphs and make it usable for past and future figures.

For the thing you wanted to do, it would work with bones only if they are many bones in each tail, and with sharp angle of movement. Not always are done that way, as most bones are made to curve hair smoothly. Maybe it is a special case that should be modeled for the occasion.

Most customers prefer compatibility. What we've seen is that customers don't specially appreciate bones. But of course if we see people prefer maximum movement instead of compatibility, we will use bones, or maybe both.

But for already released hairs, we can't update, sorry, because of what Male-M3dia said. But we can do it for future ones.

 

Hi EmmaAndJordi,

Thanks for your reply. I understand that you want people to be able to one-click fit the hair to other figures and have sacrificed some extra movement potential to do this by using movement morphs rather than bones. I rarely use autofit for hair; for me it is a couple of minutes work to position and then parent the hair to the figure's head, compared to potentially hours of work to make the morphs I need if there are no bones (in tails). It seems that on this occassion our goals are different; my bad luck.

I will keep a look out for your future releases because I think the quality of your work is very good. Success with Lizy Hair.

I understand both views and what I do if my needs require is modify stuff myself

if I want morphs I export obj of rigged poses for morphloader

if I want bones I create bones and get out the weightbrush and geometry editor

I appreciate PA's listing whats included so can make choices if I desire a particular feature

I am just happy if it doesn't include geografts which make things difficult to use in Carrara 

EmmaAndJordi

Wendy_Carrara said:

IsaacNewton said:

Male-M3dia said:

 

EmmaAndJordi said:

Hi Isaac Newton. Thanks for your comment, please understand that we don't follow the forums, so we got this only by chance. It would be more effective to send us an email or message us. Otherwise we may most surely not see it.

Thanks also to Male-M3dia, all what you said is right.

We're sorry the product was not good for what you intented to do. It has movement and style morphs for each tail but it doesn't have bones.When we use bones, we usually say it in the description.

When doing tails or similar, bones provide great movement, indeed. But what happens with bones is that if you would like to use it for another figure via the Auto-Fit, be it a future generation figure or Genesis 3 or 2, they won't be converted.
So the option for us is: make bones and make the hair only usable in the current released newest base figure, or make morphs and make it usable for past and future figures.

For the thing you wanted to do, it would work with bones only if they are many bones in each tail, and with sharp angle of movement. Not always are done that way, as most bones are made to curve hair smoothly. Maybe it is a special case that should be modeled for the occasion.

Most customers prefer compatibility. What we've seen is that customers don't specially appreciate bones. But of course if we see people prefer maximum movement instead of compatibility, we will use bones, or maybe both.

But for already released hairs, we can't update, sorry, because of what Male-M3dia said. But we can do it for future ones.

 

Hi EmmaAndJordi,

Thanks for your reply. I understand that you want people to be able to one-click fit the hair to other figures and have sacrificed some extra movement potential to do this by using movement morphs rather than bones. I rarely use autofit for hair; for me it is a couple of minutes work to position and then parent the hair to the figure's head, compared to potentially hours of work to make the morphs I need if there are no bones (in tails). It seems that on this occassion our goals are different; my bad luck.

I will keep a look out for your future releases because I think the quality of your work is very good. Success with Lizy Hair.

I understand both views and what I do if my needs require is modify stuff myself

if I want morphs I export obj of rigged poses for morphloader

if I want bones I create bones and get out the weightbrush and geometry editor

I appreciate PA's listing whats included so can make choices if I desire a particular feature

I am just happy if it doesn't include geografts which make things difficult to use in Carrara 

It's good to know because we try to do things most compatible, so if something can be done that works for all people, the better.

nicstt

I haven't bought hair without bones for a year or more. If they don't have them, then they don't go in my wishlist.

Male-M3dia

nicstt said:

I haven't bought hair without bones for a year or more. If they don't have them, then they don't go in my wishlist.

Wishlist?  Things that people **may** buy in months or years.. or maybe not at all?