the black corneas are an issue OUTSIDE DAZ studio and Skiriki solved it for me
WendyLuvsCatz
Posts: 38,589
that black cornea issue is bugging me in Carrara in Octane render and it's the damned Genesis 8 GEOMETRY
I know some have issues in DS if not at origin
but it doesn't matter where I put Genesis 8 in Carrara using Octane it happens regardless
Carrara native render is not fussed
I am bringing it up as while it is a known issue in DAZ studio, its an actual fault with the mesh IMO
yes I fix it by dragging the corneas into the head and hiding them but that's not the point
does it affect Max and Maya users and Reality too?
oops edited to fix typo was meant to be 8
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I believe the cornea and eye moisture polygons are placed too close together, I think you should try to bulge them outward, don't know how that would work with closed eyes though. It's definitely a geometry issue, as everybody seems to have problems no matter what render engine they use. Don't know anything about octane, but atleast 3DL has a built in default bias, so if you don't use some kind of bulge morph you'll have a hard time getting proper refraction and reflections.
this is not even in DAZ studio
and Genesis 3 is fine, they messed it up on 8
the excuse will always be that its not supported in Carrara by DAZ but since DS users are seeing this bug it really needs addressing
No problem in other programs and renderers . You usually adjust material(s) and settings . Some might require a longer ray depth settings or similar to penetrate, some might require adjusting transparency or transluscency settings slightly
I don't use octance but it looks like "specular depth" . Notice in the pictures, the glass is "black" and opaque until you use a higher depth setting
http://www.aoktar.com/octane/OCTANE HELP MANUAL.html?DirectLighting.html
Your picture actually looks like an issue with the sclera, not cornea.
In G3 there is an "eye moisture" layer which is above everything , including the cornea, sclera, iris . But since you can see your irises, that suggests it's not the problem
In G8, the eye moisure is more adjacent , but at the same level of the cornea, not above
Your comments say G3, later you say G3 is fine but they messed up on G8 . So I'm not sure what you have. Eitherway, it' s usually adjusting the materials and render settings
If you're using FBX - note FBX exports have different geometry, because of the base mesh resolution and the subdivision algorithm used is different in other programs, so you can get all sorts of other eye problems. Obj and alembic exports do not have those problems because the subdivided mesh is identical to what is inside DS
oops yes meant 8, edited
I do know how to render glass and other transparent objects
moving the corneas in does fix it, it may well be the sclera geometry clashing with the cornea
if it was just happening to me I would accept user error and it being a Carrara octane issue
moving out or bulging does not fix it btw
and making it totally clear no highlights or shiny an invisible shader does not fix it either
not using FBX using Misty's preset in my sigline
but many DAZ studio users see this bug too
Geometry is fine (at least in other programs, I see no reason why it's not here)
Making what totally clear? What is "it"? - In G8, and what it looks like in your picture, it's the eye mosture that you want to adjust. You need to penetrate the eye moisture to "see" the sclera texture (eye whites) underneath . You probably need to adjust the ray depth settings and material settings . It's similar for other programs too at least for obj, alembic (and fbx for the organization and layering, but fbx has other eye issues because of the subd differnences)
Not familiar with this, but maybe there are other problems introduced with that workflow ? You can rule it out (or in) by testing on an obj instead
DS Iray or Octane ? If everyone had this issue with DS Iray and could reproduce it within DS consistently - I would expect it to be a "high priority" bug fix , probably fixed a long time ago
If you want something fixed, you need to provide exact details, settings, conditions where this occurs - where some developer can reproduce the issue . I doubt Daz3D team will debug this because it's Octane. And it works in dozens of other programs and renderers. Geometry is fine. You might have better luck with Octane team
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/291516/black-sclera-issue#latest
one of several threads I managed to find with the sucky forum search
I am not in DAZ studio and it is utterly consistent in Carrara octane
and cannot submit a bug report as DAZ 3D does not support the later figures in Carrara
and yes I know all this
I am outside of DAZ studio and up the brown creek without a paddle as far as support
but if I could find out why it happens to many people not you not everyone but a significant number nonetheless in DAZ studio itself (and I add not me in DAZ studio either ) I could be halfway to fixing it
dunno what information to give
as anything I report not working in Carrara regardless gets the same not supported answer Poser users are use to too so no point even submitting a bug
I can tell you with absolute certainty that it's not a geometry issue for other renders and programs , no matter where the character is located . Most of the time, it's a depth setting and material assignment issue - just like it was the Max Path Length for iray that solved it for one of the users.
If you're certain it's not one of those things - and since it's consistent in octane carrara - maybe there other issues introduced with that "compatible preset" ? eg. Maybe eye moisture got doubled up or some other geometry issues ? I would test on an obj first
You can also delete polygon selections, render, test , delete more etc... Start with eye moisture
I understand what you're saying, no doubt:) But with 3DL it actually IS a geometry issue, just as I said in my first post. Don't know about Iray, I don't use it. Unfortunately this piece of info won't help the OP, so... carry on;)
it simply means Genesis 8 is designed for specific render specifications
its a feature
the other users like me can stick to the inferior earlier figures
Here is a radical notion... replace G8's eyes with one's that render properly in other engines.
For several years, I have been using my own eyeball replacement props
Ages ago there was a character set for the poser 6 native Female called "Bryn for Jessie"
even though they are not "PBR" and even have baked in highlights ( easily removed)
I loved the various included iris textures so much that I used then to create own hi resolution
replacement eyeball props
They are smart propped to the original eyes so they load in place
move with facial animation involving the eyes
For example Here is a quick & dirty render of the default G8 female in Blender
eyes replaced with props
I only have the starter essentials
as I dont use G8 for anything.
TY my method of pulling the corneas into the head works OK too
BTW FBX and obj do render OK its the duf imports that have issues
The geometry is independent of the renderer. It can't be "too close", at least with an authentic G8F geometry (I don't know what that carrara plugin is doing in Wendy's case) . Or maybe you have some other morphs affecting your base setup. Check what is "currenly used" in the parameters tab. Maybe some eye buldge or iris morph interfering, or adversely affecting things.
Look at the geometry editor in DS or any 3D program at the base G8F. If you look at the polygons, the eye moisture and cornea are adjacent at the same level. It's essentially 1 contiguous layer, only the polygon selection group artificially separates them. If you change the cornea color and eye moisture level to the same, you will see they are contiguous. You can delete polygons groups to triple check this. Delete everything exept for the cornea and eye moisture. So the geometry is fine - I'm 100% certain. It's essentially a buldged sphere. If you need screenshots or a demo to illustrate this I can post it.
If there is a problem with a certain renderer only - that strongly suggests a renderer setting or material issue. It there was a 3DL bug, I would expect it to be fixed too, at high priority level like iray
Some renderers might expect you to do it slightly differently - In the texture folder for the G8F base , there are alpha mattes - G8FBaseEyesTr_1007.jpg and G8FBaseEyesTr01_1007.jpg. You might have to set those up as the transparency or alpha matte ( or perhaps inverted) as a cutout. This will not be as good, because having that eye moisture and cornea layer with appropriate material settings makes it look more realistic. I doubt this is what you have to do - I suspect it's specular or transparency settings with ray depth setting that you need to adjust
On the orignal G8F , you wouldn't expect that to work with the screenshot you posted. The cornea should be at the same level as the eye moisture. You might have some morphs interfering with the geometry
So that suggests an issue with that workflow and "compatible preset" .
Everything you say makes sense, but there is a default bias hardcoded into the 3DL renderer which makes it calculate things incorrectly in some cases, and this seems to be one of them. I doubt the DS devs can or will fix it, as there are multiple bugreports open, that are many years old by now, nothing will ever happen, it's all Iray now. Only thing that can be done is to create shaders that take this into account. Luckily for me, I use scripted pathtracing with the aweSurface and one of the developers of this shader has found a workaround which will be added to the next build. I hope the OP finds a solution to her/his issue, it may well be a materials thing, but I'm not really convinced, I've seen quite a number of post mentioning problems with eyes topology. But then again, what do I know... just a regular user:)
My friend Skiriki solved this for me with some of her Poser Octane friends
I need infinite ray epsilon 1E-06 and an opacity in my specular material on my eye surfaces set to 0.25
that did it
oh and the DS max path length advice has proven useful for my animations using less problematic meshes!!!!
10 goes much faster and clearer with noise and firely filters on and 4 tears through it!!!
That's great!
I have to add that the issue I was talking about was not the same as Wendy's but related to eye topology, 3DL would simply refuse to generate eye reflections;)
Just in case if the issue of black eyes crops up elsewhere too:
Wendy pointed me to one of the threads where people mentioned getting black eyes if Iray's "Optimization" parameter max. path length something else than -1 (default; in this case, -1 means "infinite").
I tested where it stopped being an issue:
At max path length 1, my figure was very grey and had black eyes.
At max path length 2, my figure was less grey, but still had black eyes.
At max path length 3, my figure was more or less human-colored, but still had black eyes.
At max path length 4, G8F was of mostly normal human color and had normal eyes.
Both Iray and Octane are PBR style, so surely something like this has to be at play there too? We're talking about a surface where two geometries are extremely close to each other, and self-shadowing is also a risk.
So we poked at things, I downloaded a very helpful guide to Octane written by my friend and we were fairly close to licking it, since stabbing at "ray epsilon" parameter seemed like a good idea, because it seems to do similar things. My downfall was not realizing that setting it to 0.0001 is still too high, so we ended up waiting for my buddy to log in elsewhere, and I jumped him on first chance to ask what the heck we're supposed to do.
From there, Wendy and I went into "well poke at Carrara's OToy settings and material settings of those surfaces, I'm SURE those parameters are SOMEWHERE in there" mode, translating the settings from Poser OToy setup, with a massive version difference giving headache as well.
Summa summarum:
If you get black eyes in Iray, check your parameters from the Iray's engine and max path length, and if it is 1 to 3, set it to -1 (default) or set it to 5 to 10. 10 seems to give good results.
If you get black eyes in Octane, check your material settings for eyemoisture and cornea; set specularity opacity to 0.25, IOR (index of reflection) to 1. Set ray epsilon in rendering engine to infinite or really superbly tiny (test when you find a good balance between infinite and value, if you don't want to use infinite).
If you get black eyes in 3Delight, I have not fully confirmed this as I haven't had good luck duplicating the effect (I would like a scene file that has render settings saved in it!), my recommendation is to start looking at things that relate to maximum ray bounces and seeing if increasing those, or adjusting ray length in 3Delight render engine settings would help. Adjusting material settings a la Octane may also be needed in your figure.
Linking the super-useful Octane guide, because someone's going to ask for it: here.
It is for Poser, but it should be useful enough for others, like Carrara or DS as well, and it is amply illustrated for your needs to show differences between various settings.
I still think for the DAZ Studio users with this problem it's a worry when a figure requires special render settings not loaded in the program by default .... just my opinion
to reafirm I mean the not at 0,0,0 bug which I don't experience but some do
No special render settings required, because the default setting is -1 (infinite)
I'll take your word for it, but this sounds like a material and render settings issue to me too
A timely thread to what I've been doing lately.
I've been taking Daz figures into Lightwave 2018 and pretty much have to re-texture everything, particularly when turing them into PBR node based. The process has somewhat forced me to learn the inner wokings of Daz a bit more, but slowly getting a workflow. Export is either FBX or OBJ, but I'm often having to massage things a bit by running the result thru PolyTrans to get a Lightwave scene & object set that 2018 is content to open.
Anyway, as I'll assume most know, the eye structure of Gen8 figures are more complex than previous. Naming conventions with 3rd party artists can vary as well. How one would examing things in detail within Daz itself, I don't know. But with the tools at hand, I could.
Here's the geom of a Gen8male eye. This shot shows the EyeMoisture layer with the Sclera in the BG (black). As you can hopefully see, the EM is just slightly larger & envelopes the Sclera. Both are open, essentially a jug within a jug, on their sides and their nornmals face the samne way as well.
The second image shows the realtionship of the rest of the eye components Cornea, Iris & Pupil.
And so, as has been stated, the issue is really most likely with surface attributes, unless you truly have some rogue morph that's distorting the eyes.
And a WIP...
yes sadly this shows as modeling gets more complex and detailed our render choices are going to have to up the ante to meet the requirements.
I guess I am nearing the point when new content ceases to be viable for me to animate on my existing computer
but I am also learning how to adapt stuff so it can be used
HD morph addons are something I never buy for example though I love all the fantasy creatures
my machine struggles with more than 3 in a scene.
Max (specular) ray bounces won't help because it's not a ray depth issue. As with Octane, the parameter to tweak is ray epsilon. In 3delight, this is the raytracing bias. Since there's no explicit control in the render settings on any of the old shaders (dsDefault, omniferaker, or AoA's). then it can't be fixed outside of adding a morph.
No such problems with AWE Surface for 3delight in DAZ Studio. You can set transmission bias to 0 to fix the issue. You still need to set it to default value (-1) for other surfaces. I suggest those who have this issue use the shader, since it is available for free.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/277581/awe-surface-shader-a-new-physically-plausible-shader-for-daz-studio-and-3delight/p1
Plus, you'll get a proper, fully path traced workflow with 3delight.
Yup it's a Ray Epsilon thing, just change from 0.0001 to 0.00001 and it fixes it in Octane.