Needed improvements for DAZ3D shopping.
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Personally, I'd love to see the type of promo pictures Rendo has on this page and that's what I originally posted as an example. I was pretty clear that I think DAZ3D should follow the example of their competitors. I'd like a closer look at some of the things I buy.
What page? It's been edited by a mod because you linked directly to a Rendo product. You can name it for us to go look up but you cannot link it.
Just as an example on Rendo: The Girl Next Door 4: Athletic
Yep. 1000x1600.
More detail can be provided by a larger image, which needs to be opened in a tab and scrolled, or by several close-ups. PAs usually run a mixture of the two, presumably based on their experience of what is the most effective in selling their sets. As is shown by this thread, people differ in which they find least convenient. There's nothing wrong with having a preference, but it's pretty pointless trying to argue with the preferences of others.
This seems a bit OT, but you can set all of your external Runtimes up as install folders for DIM and then pick the one you want by checking the Details box and picking from the list drop-down.
You do realize that texture isn't photo-realistic, right? That's been your crusade over these last few threads.
It's simply a painted texture (not textured from a photo reference) with a Poser 9+ SSS shader put on top of it.
Now look at the readme. Are there bump maps? No. There's not many textures included, because the shader is really doing all the work. That product most likely would have got rejected at Daz because the quality of the textures being hidden by the shader. Compared to some the products you have issue with, I guarantee that those will render MUCH better than your example in DS.
Did you get fooled by a large promo lit with shadows that don't really show the actual texture quality, thinking this is "upping someone's game"?
Yes, you did.
But you see the importance of proper lighting and material settings that work together to make a great render... not promo size. This highlights the importance of actually reading what you are getting over seeing promos and not knowing what you're actually looking at.
What page? It's been edited by a mod because you linked directly to a Rendo product. You can name it for us to go look up but you cannot link it.
Just as an example on Rendo: The Girl Next Door 4: Athletic
Yep. 1000x1600.
But beyond that, can you see where I'm looking at that promotional picture and thinking to myself, "DAZ doesn't have anything that looks near that good."... and maybe they do but I'm just not seeing it. I don't think they do currently (on character skins only) but I think if they start using bigger pictures like they do on Rendo, the quality might improve with it.
The size of the promo really has nothing to do with the final detail you can see unless the camera is close enough to see, or not see as the case may be. And if the camera is close enough to see the detail then an image that fills the screen top to bottom should be large enough to see the details.
I think we are talking about a matter of web design and being user friendly. On Rendo, I open promos and need to scroll up and down and can't really see the entire image at one time as the don't fit the height of my screen. On DAZ, they use a script which fits the image to the web browser window on what ever computer is opening the image.... up to the full size of the image.
There are however a number of products which do use large promos. I haven't really counted. But, I do know that one of mine has 1000 x 1300 images and here is how you can see the full size image. In this case, I am looking at:
http://www.daz3d.com/lofn
The fifth image is the best example as it shows the detail of the outfit the best. (sorry about the shameless self promotion here, but it is a good example)
1. Click that link
2. 'Right Click' on a thumbnail image under the main promo
3. Select 'Open Link in New Tab' (or new window)
4. If you have a + sign when you mouse over the image, click the image to see it full size.
It could be said that an easier method for getting to the full size image would be nice, but I do prefer the method DAZ chose over the scrolling I have to do on Rendo.
a lot of people use mobile devices to shop actually
look at mail
or read forums
I am on my android tablet right now actually
the rendo gmails I get tend to not fit my screen and only parts of linked pages on sites display at a time
I only bought one product after looking on my PC later as I saw included stuff simply nit listed on the android view.
I never have issues with Daz store or gmails except the not being ever logged in one.
I think we are talking about a matter of web design and being user friendly. On Rendo, I open promos and need to scroll up and down and can't really see the entire image at one time as the don't fit the height of my screen. On DAZ, they use a script which fits the image to the web browser window on what ever computer is opening the image.... up to the full size of the image.
There are however a number of products which do use large promos. I haven't really counted. But, I do know that one of mine has 1000 x 1300 images and here is how you can see the full size image. In this case, I am looking at:
http://www.daz3d.com/lofn
The fifth image is the best example as it shows the detail of the outfit the best. (sorry about the shameless self promotion here, but it is a good example)
1. Click that link
2. 'Right Click' on a thumbnail image under the main promo
3. Select 'Open Link in New Tab' (or new window)
4. If you have a + sign when you mouse over the image, click the image to see it full size.
It could be said that an easier method for getting to the full size image would be nice, but I do prefer the method DAZ chose over the scrolling I have to do on Rendo.
Great looking product first off. I know I've seen your handle in my runtime so I appreciate the good work you do.
I like having to scroll up and down the image and in short, everything looks better over at the other page in my good opinion. I feel like if I've seen the close up promos, that I have a better understanding of the products that I'm purchasing and in the larger images, its harder to hide the flaws. Let's face it, maybe they don't need bigger images but DAZ should have some type of standard in place where we as customers get to have a really close look at what we are investing our hard earned coins on.
If the product is good then no vendor is going to worry about it and in fact, I would be damn proud of the product if it looks great.
Character skins are still a weakness on DAZ3D and already I've bought half a dozen character where I felt a bit cheated. I don't care about the morphs, I have all the Zev0 products and I have no problems shaping the characters. I have lots of great outfits but when it comes to putting skin on my Genesis 2, I find myself going to the competition not because I prefer them but because there really isn't anything on offer on DAZ3d that looks great to me.
At least when I purchase a product over at the other site, I have no doubts what I'm getting and if my results don't look good, I know its my own fault because I've seen what can be done.
The issue to me really is about raising standards and putting the bar up high so that people who rush out half a dozen skins that look like garbage won't be able to hide behind smaller pictures.
I like your trick of opening the picture in a new window and I'll be using that in the future, thank you. But I still want to see something more on character skins and improved visibility of the details. Thanks for sharing with me.
Very true but we should error on the side of giving the customer all the details of the products in HD detail and standards should be put in place that encourage consumer trust. Head to toe shots on character skins like what I've seen at Rendo should be a given to inspire confidence in the products.
When I shop here I have a lot lot more confidence in what I am getting than when I shop at Rendo.
Sorry but some of the products at Rendo are of a much lower standard than you get here, and of course here you have a refund policy that other competitor sites do not have, to me this shows a confidence by the broker in the products.
Personally I hate shopping at Rendo these days I know very well that the promos often do not offer a true picture of the product, I tend to stick to buying from those vendors whose work I trust.
However, the issue is the details ARE there in these products at DAZ. So you really need to get at why you aren't getting them.
I think it's obvious from all your renders you've shown that the lighting you are using aren't bringing these details out. They have no depth, are dark and don't show any detail of the skin and are washed out in renders. Textures and materials really respond to the lighting that you give them. If you use the wrong lighting, then you're not going to get the details; and you can't really blame vendors because you're not doing or learning that.
The "Girl Next Door" is also an obvious example of you not knowing how to look for details, as it gives you a simulated, calculated skin that doesn't work in all programs because not all the textures and mapping needed are even provided. So, you'll buy it based on the promos being large and you think you are seeing detail, but it doesn't really exist. And the promos are actually shot from far away, so they're not even close up on the skin... they are just larger in size on a page. How does this inspire trust in customers, when the actual detail is being faked in software?
So if you can't tell the difference, how exactly can you lecture PAs on something of this subject?
Directly to the point-- you can't.
You really need to learn the basics of lighting, materials, and rendering before you really get on your soapbox, if I really need to be honest. There really can't be shortcuts on creating renders, you have to learn and PAs or others can't do it for you.
Very true but we should error on the side of giving the customer all the details of the products in HD detail and standards should be put in place that encourage consumer trust. Head to toe shots on character skins like what I've seen at Rendo should be a given to inspire confidence in the products.
The issue with HD detail is that not everyone will be able to render them. You're going to need at least 8gb of RAM for rendering... 16GB really if you're putting together a scene. There's no cost in it if you're putting a scene together with HD, it's going to need to extra horsepower for rendering.
You're not really seeing detail in head to toes shots because to do that you're actually away from the skin you need to see detail of. If you are seeing bump from that far away, then closeups will not look good because the bump mapping or displacement is way too high. The only real value in those types of renders is to see how the body morph looks, not how detailed the skin really is.
However, the issue is the details ARE there in these products at DAZ. So you really need to get at why you aren't getting them.
(snip personal attack that should be moderated)
You really need to learn.
I hope moderators do their job and moderate personal attacks.
I like DAZ3d better too and I'm only speaking about the other site because of the great example they are setting in promotional pictures that this site might be able to incorporate to improving my experience. If I didn't really appreciate what they are doing, I wouldn't bother trying to share my own point of view with them.
I agree with everything you said but they still blow DAZ out of the water when it comes to showing off the products. It makes for me personally, a better shopping experience.
My thoughts... take em or leave.
Peace
You're not really seeing
You seriously can't be trying to tell me what I see? Look, I get that your offended as a person who sells those characters that I'm speaking about that look like cartoons at best. I saw your "sugar and spice" and with the promo renders you put out, I'd never buy that product.
Ironically, I've bought several of your products for M5 and they were very good... thank you for your great work in that category.
To me, you're just the type of person I was talking about. You come on here and you insult my pictures but compared to those characters your selling, they are a masterpiece, even with bad lighting. Don't take it personally but I want better, more realistic products. I'm sure some cartoonist wants your product, just not me.
My wish list for Daz3D shopping experience as a new comer and Platinum member for more than a year
In order of importance to me
- DATE OF MANUFACTURING and Date of Most Recent Update
- Polygon/ Vertex count information (strange this hasn't been a standard feature since 2004)
- Option to mark Interesting/Seen/Not Interested/Don't show again
- Maps sizes (most have them but many omit them)
- Topology picture (useful technical info aside, if the product is well-made the producer should show off its topology too)
- better Wish List display options and especially edit/delete/sort mechanism
- clearer display images
- Option to load more than 60 products per page for those who can handle it
Your thoughts and opinions I will leave. Your images need a lot of work especially with the lighting and render settings try increasing your settings and you might begin to see the details you say are lacking. The images you are posting would not sell me a product, I'm not sure if you really are aware of what is needed to make a good render
Brilliant... I had forgotten about file sizes. We should know how big the files sizes are before we purchase them. Technical details, YES! Thank you. I couldn't agree more.
Your thoughts and opinions I will leave. Your images need a lot of work especially with the lighting and render settings try increasing your settings and you might begin to see the details you say are lacking. The images you are posting would not sell me a product, I'm not sure if you really are aware of what is needed to make a good render
Then put your money where your mouth is and show me something better. You talk a lot of game but do you bring it?
I'm not selling products, I'm the customer sharing things I enjoy but since my images "need a lot of work', what would you recommend in place of the environment sold by DAZ3D called "HDR ProSets Yosemite" by dimension theory? Since clearly its default is so lacking to your standards.
To be honest, I wouldn't expect you to because you haven't shown you really know what realism is, since you were fooled by the very promos you showed as an example.
BTW, Sugar and Spice was my best selling product to date, so I guess everyone doesn't agree with you. ;)
To me, you're just the type of person I was talking about. You come on here and you insult my pictures but compared to those characters your selling, they are a masterpiece, even with bad lighting. Don't take it personally but I want better, more realistic products. I'm sure some cartoonist wants your product, just not me.
Problem really is, you really need to learn and your threads aren't justified because of them and they ultimately get locked because of it. People try to help by telling what your really need to learn and what you're complaining about isn't in those products but your skill, but you really don't want to hear that and throw insults instead. If your images were promos, to be honest, they would not make one sale, much less get even accepted in the store, because of the issues I've mentioned. And how can I say that? Because my images get accepted and sell product. I know how to light and use materials. That's how I can give advice and you really can't.
Repeating it once again: you really do really need to realize and understand that your issues aren't in those products, it's really you need to learn the basics to really make a well informed opinion.
I apologise if you think I insulted your pictures but you seem to put them up as an example of high standards in rendering and unfortunately at the moment they are not, I was merely trying to point out where you could improve before you insist the venders do it for you.
You could be very good but until you realise that the content you buy is not going to magically produce excellent renders and that you need to put some work in yourself they will always be lacking.
I said nothing about the environment I mentioned render settings and lighting. DT's work is of very high standard, but in the image you have above the figure doesn't seem to quite fit the background the lighting on the figure seems slightly off. Also her right arm looks a bit odd at the elbow
I don't know what your render settings are but your figures skin in several images look very blotchy this is usually due to low settings on lights and or low render settings..
I don't try for photorealism in my images I prefer a more illustrated effect. There are several of my images throughout the forums if you look. There are some at RDNA, both there and Rendo I go by the handle tparo, at RDNA look in the challenge Gallery most are there.
If you are a PC member go and look in the 2 competitions running some of the work there is amazingly outstanding look for Vanguard, budo-san Geminii121 and several others.
When there is work that you don't want to do, you hire other people to do it for you. As the customer, you have the right to make certain demands upon the people that you give your hard earned coin to. Content makers always have to contend with the desires of the people that create their market and when we are talking about artistic communities, each of us has our own specialities and we learn and grow all the time. Their is always room for improvement on all sides but in this particular discussion, your sidetracking from a much more important topic that is the needed improvements for DAZ3D shopping.
Do you get that I only post my pictures just because I like to share?
The bottom line is that I get to decide "the content that I buy" and I get to tell the people who make that content exactly how I want it and what I'd like to see in the future and as the customer, makers can either argue with me or listen but you can't do both... and rule 1 is the customer is always right. The people who want to market to me will make the products I'm going to buy.
I'm trying to improve things, not hear your art critique.
Please read the following:
http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/
Sorry, but in reality the customer is not always right, especially when they don't have the proper knowledge of the subject.
However, the only thing that really needs to be improved is how lighting and materials work and listening to the helpful hints of others without resorting to insults.
I disagree with your good opinion. Take care. I'm sure all your customers will appreciate how helpful you are.
Sorry I thought you asked for the critique.
You are correct venders that want your custom will listen to you those that want the custom of the rest of us will not. As far as I see you are not trying to improve things quite the opposite that is my opinion.
As Male-M3dia says you are not prepared to listen to the opinions of other and resort to insults and accusation instead.
Good luck.
You're apology is accepted. Thanks for sharing your good opinion.
Yes, all buyers have the option to vote with their wallets. If someone doesn't like what a brokerage has to offer, they have the option of looking and buying elsewhere. No one is forced to purchase anything from DAZ and, if you do purchase something you aren't happy with, you have 30 days in which to return it.
This is not a personal attack so much as I'm trying to understand what it is you want DAZ to fix. Do you want them to change how they present products or do you want vendors to actually make changes to their products?
Locking this thread as it is clearly degenerating into personalities. Please remember that if you feel a post is against the TOS you should report it and not respond to it or comment on it in the thread. Also please remember to address posts to the topics under discussion and not the posters.