V4 clone to G8F clothing questions
Vially
Posts: 343
Okay, so yes. my G8F has a V4 clone applied, and can comfortably wear anything originally made for V4. I do however have some questions in regards to some aspects of the conversion.
- Does anyone know what happens to the original items geometry? I.E. Do pants for V4 still "break" or seam in the same places, and the "clone" within G8F just translates G8F bends back to the original V4 item?
- If I fit a clothing item to G8F, then export as an OBJ, then import back in, does this item now become a G8F item, or would the geometry need to be modified to "fit" G8F?
I'm asking because I have a boatload of V4 clothing items that I have gotten over the years, some going back as far as when she was NEW and poser specific, (even going so far as using the V3 to V4 clothing converter,) so a lot of these are designed with poser in mind, but because they are for V4, I can make them work now on G8F and give them the needed "updates" like iRay and/or dForce... Some I just don't want to get rid of yet, because I spent good money on them, and really just hate the idea of throwing them out because they were never updated with Victoria.
So does anyone know the answers to these conceptual questions?
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1. the topology of the mesh is not chnaged, only its shape
2. Exporting as OBJ would give a static model which would then have to be rigged, and have its morphs added via OBJ export adn Morph import. The convedrted item and is already a Genesis 8 Female item, you can save it as an asset or to a scene/scene subset as you wish.
So a little back story I guess makes sense.
I'm an old poser user who is trying to consolidate my poser content into one great big resource for DAZ, (i'm trying to drop Poser, no particular gripe, I like the program just don't see a reason for 2 applications that do the same thing.) ((I know I know, Poser does things that Studeo doesn't and visa versa, really just not going there, I decided to switch to Studeo for now so that where this is all comming from.))
Anyway, I have Victoria 3 content that there was nothing wrong with, works great, and then Victoria 4 came along, and it took a while but everyone dropped Vicky 3 like a hot potato, there being essentially no more updates or progression with her or the various items made for her. And then (tada sound) Clothes and texture converters... yay!
But these only took things up to Vicktoria 4.
Enter Genisis, and the progression becomes much quicker, but is basically the same story... Older items, huge sellers or not, get dropped as soon as the new characters come out, there is a mad rush to get product out for them, but the OLDER content is just left behind. I am well aware of and understand the marketting aspects behind this, but somewhere someone needs to recognise that I as a user have spend 100s if not thousands of dollars on content over the years, all of which is more or less useless because Everything is off of G8F now. I mean let's face it, even Victoria is no longer anything more than a G8F morph character.
Please understand I am NOT knocking any of the previous characters, nor the current ones. I am simply trying to figure out how to consolidate my DAZ/Poser directories, get all my content into one drive and potentially start making images again...
You can actually convert your Victoria 3 clothing - there are clones for Genesis in the store, allowing the items to be AutoFitted to Genesis, then you can AutoFit those to Genesis 8 female (or Male) using the supplied clones.
There's also a pack with clones to convert from V3/M3 to Genesis 3.
Okay,
Well as I mentioned previously, I do own products that will convert various items to kind of update them. I have done the process to clone V4 to G8F. V4 clothing fits on G8F like a charm... as long as she is un-morphed and in the A pose, once I start to move her around and pose her... well then we can see where things just... didn't work out so well. Poke here, pinch there... so add a morph, add a push modifyer, take the OBJ into Hex and "refit" the item to G8f specifically, bring it back into DAZ and well... it is still just not right is it.
Clothing from V3 can be made to go onto V4, and that can be made to fit G8F, but it really doesn't fit, it just sort of looks like it does, get the pose you want and then fiddle with the clothing morphs to "maybe" get it to not poke through. It's a band-aid on top of a band-aid, holding a band-aid in place.
So if we have to get specific, take the V3 office outfit, use clothes converter and "modify" it to fit fit V4... Pose V4 around, note that the outfit really doesn't bend correctly, note where geometry appears to 'pull' the texture incorrectly. Use various shaping morphs on V4, now you are really in for some poke through issues. Now take the V3 Office outfit, as applied to V4, save it and apply it to G8F... Like I said, it may fit like a charm, as long as G8F is in the 'A' pose and no other shaping morphs are applied, bend her around and pose her and you can spend the rest of the weekend trying to "fix" various fit issues.
I'm not knocking these products, I'm not putting down the newer characters or the clothing or Items for them. What I am trying to say is that this process is not really a fix is it. It is a way to FORCE older products to "maybe" work with the newer products. And shoes! Nothing appears to work on shoes, these are just all... well, messed up, when trying to convert.
Same with textures, I fell in love with StephyZZ's Yuma character/textures. So much so, that I saved the textures through 2 Poser upgrades. When texture converter came out I was all over that like a mad man, I spent almost a week converting multiple textures from V3 to V4, but Yuma was first. Then we advance and once again Yuma is no longer usable. Oh wait, yes she is, there is an application that will apply V4 Geographs to the G8F model so that you can use V4 textures... Fantastic! But it doesn't really update the old textures does it, there is no true update to the textures just a way to force G8F to accept them. Is this a fix? Should I be happy with that. To be honest I haven't tried it yet. I probably will eventually. Once I figure out what types of things can be done after using it in regard to iRay and the various shaders...
I think my question stems from the fact that I am spending so much time and effort in trying to get "some", not all but some of these older items updated that I don't have the time to use them for renders :) Which I think is where the geometry question comes into play, take the V3 Office outfit as an example... the conversions just leave too many issues, so I take the original OBJ files into hex and start fixing them there, weld here, splice there, move this, remove that, add something else. Essentially rebuilding it to be correct for G8F, oh and while there DAZ 4.11 dForce compliant/ready as well... So again, not really an updated product, but a completely new product that is under the same name... Some the geometry can be saved with modifications, others I rebuild from scratch using the original as an example reference... at what point does this become a new product?
Take V8 into DAZ, change her hieght, move a dial here change a dial there, make her look cross eyed and buck toothed and Walla.. a Brand new character for V8, (which is in reality a character for G8F.) but at which point does a re-construction of the V3 Office Outfit by DAZ, become the G8F office out fit by V... And why do I even have to put that sort of effort into it... Texture converter would actually change the original texture files for a character. It re-wrote the templates and created new ones as needed... Hasn't the Genesis format been out long enough for someone to update that application?
Guess I've reached the pitiful rant stage... I'll quit now :)
I really wouldn't try going Victoria 3 to Victoria 4, then AutoFitting that - goign from one figue with Parametric Rigging to another you potentially have to tweak the fall-off spheres, which is a pain - going straight to a weight-mapped figure you don't have that (though there may be other issues, of course)
Yeah, I've pretty much given up on the V3 items. And this weekend has been spent going through the store and adding items to my wishlist... All 587 pages of 60 items a page, (yes, I have a headache, and my wishlist is almost as big at the catalog now.)
But this does actually get back to my original point, I DID find an update to one V4 outfit The Sunarian Priestess outfit, I never really did find a place to use it at the time, but I think I may have a place for it in a future render. Thing is, that's it. 587 pages of items from V3 to G8F and that was the only item I have that I could find an update for. Even DAZ is negligent in this area, the "Conforming" anatomy hasn't been updated since V4, and remember V4.2 changed her model structure. So generation 8 on the Main Daz figures and there is no update to a base feature that, heck based on how many zombie textures, props and gore items there are out there, Internal organs and Brains might be something someone would want...
The question is though, since it was a conforming item to V4.2, G8F with a V4 clone, looks at the V4 Skeleton as a clothing item, so it can and DOES, get fit to G8F, (see image, BTW G8F is very much a resource in both images.) But now what, I've used it in a render, but G8F MUST be in the image and used to "pose" the skeleton. (to be honest i think that was the way it was for V4.2 as well.)
But is this now a G8F Skeleton?
Can I apply all the different morph forms to it and save it off as G8F Skeleton, or is it forever just a V4.2 "fit" to G8F item. Same for the internal organs and brain... Michael had his own versions, if I clone him into G8M, the same question applies. What about V4 Jeanz... if I put them on G8F do they become G8F clothing, forever, or just a fit item. V4 Pharoah, Winter Wear, Domino... etcetera, literally hundreds of V4/V4.2 clothing items that i can now fit to G8F.
Could I post them up someplace as a freebee? V4.2 Domino for G8F. (would ask permission first, I'm not trying to step on anyone just trying to figure out what happens to the model iteself and if that can be shared to other folks, that might also have that item, but not cloned V4 into G8F.)
Anyway, my own brain hurts after going through the entire DAZ catalog, which there was more to update than just a few sets (to iRay shaders) and the Sunarian Priestess outfit... that one could be really interesting with dForce on it...
Anyway, thanks for reading.
And sort of an update to that, In reviewing it appears that the Sunarian Priestess outfit is actually a completely new model with new props, and textures. So technically not really an update, but a new model with the same concept/name.
New version is here: https://www.daz3d.com/suranian-priestess-2 (for Genisis and V5)
Older version is as in image. (is on G8F)
Once an item is AutoFitted it is like any other item fitted to the figure.
A morph is the reshaping of a mesh by moving its vertices and is object specific. No you cannot redistribute.
So if I continue the Sunarian example, it is a CR2 file, If I load it, fit it to G8f and then Save it as a DUF file, it "should" load from that point forward to G8F. allowing me to remove the CR2 file from my directories, and only use the new DUF file... Correct? and will always auto fit to G8F?
Jestmart, this actually kind of confuses me, since there is a tutorial sold on the marketplace on just HOW to do exactly what you are saying cannot be done, and how to make money selling the end results on DAZ Store.
I.E. Character X for V8... Let's see, load V8, move some character MORPHS around, change her shape a bit here and there, save the end result off as a character file and Walla, sell it on DAZ for $15 dollars a pop, don't include textures, have those load the V8 defaults with the disclaimer: "MUST Have V8 to ____".
Or better yet, load G8F, move things around on her, change some actor settings slant her eyes, blah, blah blah... save it off and sell it as a completely NEW character for G8F.
Wait, isn't that morphing her and redistributing? (with or without a profit margin?) Okay, so now take that model into blender and really change the geometry around, bring it back in, add it to your character as a HD Morph for Character X and market it... Have we not just added a morph to a different morph that was in fact the G8F?
Let's be honest with what is happening there, V8 or any other character that says it is G8F compatible is, in fact simply a Morph (or set of morphs) applied to the G8F character. To take that even farther, the F and M aspects are simply morphs to the Genesis 8 character, (which is a rather strange looking thing, neither male nor female in gender definitions. Can be achieved by changing all her actor dials to 50% for male and female. (But I digress.)
Oh here's a concept, Change G8F to be 50% G8M and save off the actor and call it PAT, you know, after the movie character. Use a skin shader and Tada, a completely NEW character that should be able to be sold in the DAZ store. I mean there is a DAZ sanctioned tutorial for sale in the store that tells you exactly how to do just that.
Hmmm... if I take G8f, turn her V4.2 Morph up all the way, then do some changes actor changes to her Am I creating a NEW character for V4.2 or for G8F, Hmmm... maybe it's a new character for V4.2 for G8F...
This is becoming a ghoofy rant, but you see what I'm saying here... base line is if Genesis 8 is required for ANY of the characters purchased here, then they are in fact nothing more than morphs to said character, so how can it be said that morphing the character cannot be redistributed? (BTW, I never said I wanted to SELL them, heck I'd even be willing to give them back to the original artist so that they could redistribute them, I'm more concerned with some of this older content getting UPDATED to the newer models and/or capabilities of DAZ Studio.
Attached Image is the G8F dev load on the right, to her right is G8F as G8M, behind him is G8F as G3M, behind him is G8F as G2M, and behind him is G8F as Genesis. the gang is all there, just turn the dials, or push the buttons.
oops, forgot I changed G8F into V4.2...
Ah well, you get the idea. :)
Yes.
Characters can either use custom morphs, made by directly editing the shape (using a modelling or sculpting application) or they can be settings for the Daz or other morph sets (where the morphs are applied and the preset justs toers the amount of the morph applied, it doesn't store the shape itself). Unless they are merchant resources used in accordance with the license terms it isn't permissible to duistribute a morph baked from another morph or morphs.