Victoria 4.3

Pinupper

Due to the continued popularity of the iconic Victoria 4, an updated version perhaps could be explored. Having another V4 may be redundant-considering the evollutionary V7 and 8- product "remasters" today are in full swing. Just throwing it out there...

WendyLuvsCatz

DAZ has moved on, I do however think her topology is superior to the Genesis range she just needs the new rigging but doubt they are interested 

Leana

Pinupper said:

Due to the continued popularity of the iconic Victoria 4, an updated version perhaps could be explored.

Honnestly, the chances of Daz updating a figure which is more than 10 years old and 4 generations behind are virtually nil.

EightiesIsEnough

I agree.  Genesis figures of all generations are miles better.

I used to rely on Victoria 4.2, but the big problem with it was that skirts couldn't move with the legs the same way Genesis figures do.  So for that, Genesis 3 and sometimes 8 is my choice.

IsaacNewton

DAZ has moved to a new paradigm for their characters. V4 was relatively high poly count and therefore amenable to morphing by almost anyone. Not so good for DAZ character/morph sales. The Genesis range seem to have less and less polygons on each successive generation; the characters rely on subdivision on the fly within DAZ Studio to achieve their high quality mesh appearence. The lower poly count of the Genesis series means making detailed mesh morphs is more difficult at best and impossible for some morphs, unless you are a DAZ PA, when you have access to DAZ propriety HD technology which enables making HD detailed morphs. This is better for DAZ sales of detailed morphs for their characters. Makes good business sense for DAZ. So DAZ upgrading the rigging of V4 is not very likely as V4++ would compete (rather well, IMO) with the Genesis series and risk losing character/morph sales to third parties.

Pinupper

I agree on each perspective in regards of polycount efficiency and overall sales performance. Each generation of Genesis figures take into account of being as accessible to as many PC builds as possible, which I understand. I do love the Genesis figures-all of them- so if DAZ is still selling content based on 10 year-old obselete tech, than it is only obvious to ask why not? 

Richard Haseltine

IsaacNewton said:

DAZ has moved to a new paradigm for their characters. V4 was relatively high poly count and therefore amenable to morphing by almost anyone. Not so good for DAZ character/morph sales. The Genesis range seem to have less and less polygons on each successive generation; the characters rely on subdivision on the fly within DAZ Studio to achieve their high quality mesh appearence. The lower poly count of the Genesis series means making detailed mesh morphs is more difficult at best and impossible for some morphs, unless you are a DAZ PA, when you have access to DAZ propriety HD technology which enables making HD detailed morphs. This is better for DAZ sales of detailed morphs for their characters. Makes good business sense for DAZ. So DAZ upgrading the rigging of V4 is not very likely as V4++ would compete (rather well, IMO) with the Genesis series and risk losing character/morph sales to third parties.

That's not really correct - since the V4 mesh is used at its final esolution some of the extra is needed to smooth out those morphs, which on Genesises can be left to the SubD to smooth. Remember that Victoria 4 is roughly equivalent to one level of SubD on a Genesis. The idea that this is some kind of ply to boost sales is not really credible - most HD moprh need more resolution thanm the older figures ever offered.

Psyckosama

Richard Haseltine said:

IsaacNewton said:

DAZ has moved to a new paradigm for their characters. V4 was relatively high poly count and therefore amenable to morphing by almost anyone. Not so good for DAZ character/morph sales. The Genesis range seem to have less and less polygons on each successive generation; the characters rely on subdivision on the fly within DAZ Studio to achieve their high quality mesh appearence. The lower poly count of the Genesis series means making detailed mesh morphs is more difficult at best and impossible for some morphs, unless you are a DAZ PA, when you have access to DAZ propriety HD technology which enables making HD detailed morphs. This is better for DAZ sales of detailed morphs for their characters. Makes good business sense for DAZ. So DAZ upgrading the rigging of V4 is not very likely as V4++ would compete (rather well, IMO) with the Genesis series and risk losing character/morph sales to third parties.

That's not really correct - since the V4 mesh is used at its final esolution some of the extra is needed to smooth out those morphs, which on Genesises can be left to the SubD to smooth. Remember that Victoria 4 is roughly equivalent to one level of SubD on a Genesis. The idea that this is some kind of ply to boost sales is not really credible - most HD moprh need more resolution thanm the older figures ever offered.

And of course to make HD morphs you need to be a Daz PA...

wolf359

Pinupper said:

 

Due to the continued popularity of the iconic Victoria 4, an updated version perhaps could be explored.

V4 only remains "popular" with poser users....for now at least.

IsaacNewton

Richard Haseltine said:

IsaacNewton said:

DAZ has moved to a new paradigm for their characters. V4 was relatively high poly count and therefore amenable to morphing by almost anyone. Not so good for DAZ character/morph sales. The Genesis range seem to have less and less polygons on each successive generation; the characters rely on subdivision on the fly within DAZ Studio to achieve their high quality mesh appearence. The lower poly count of the Genesis series means making detailed mesh morphs is more difficult at best and impossible for some morphs, unless you are a DAZ PA, when you have access to DAZ propriety HD technology which enables making HD detailed morphs. This is better for DAZ sales of detailed morphs for their characters. Makes good business sense for DAZ. So DAZ upgrading the rigging of V4 is not very likely as V4++ would compete (rather well, IMO) with the Genesis series and risk losing character/morph sales to third parties.

That's not really correct - since the V4 mesh is used at its final esolution some of the extra is needed to smooth out those morphs, which on Genesises can be left to the SubD to smooth. Remember that Victoria 4 is roughly equivalent to one level of SubD on a Genesis. The idea that this is some kind of ply to boost sales is not really credible - most HD moprh need more resolution thanm the older figures ever offered.

Hi Richard, I was not saying that the V4 mesh (which has more than 4 times the poly count of base genesis 8) was or is sufficient to achieve the same final smoothness of a well subdivided G8 character. Merely that mesh morphing of the base Genesis series (which is all non-PAs have access to) is significantly lower resolution than V4 due to the lower poly count of the base Genesis series. Certainly subD is the way to go, however since making mesh morphs with subsequent subD in DS is not available to normal DAZ clients, the result is that making high resolution morphs for Genesis is only available to DAZ PAs. This has an undeniable commercial consequence; if you want high res morphs for the Genesis series then you must buy them from DAZ and no where else. I am not suggesting that DAZ have done this in secret as a method of tricking people, of course not. Anyone who understands even vaguely how 3d figures work and how business works can see that restriction of DAZ proprietary HD technology to DAZ PAs is commercially advantagous to DAZ. This surely is stating the obvious. DAZ has every right to limit their HD technology to their own PAs.

I personally wish that DAZ would sell a licence to use that HD technology for non-commercial purposes, but it is their choice (and right) that they do not.

However, it also makes perfect commercial sense that DAZ would not then upgrade V4 to compete with their Genesis series characters whilst doing so would potentially allow competing third parties to profit from DAZ doing so. This is the answer (or at least part of it) as to why V4.3 will never happen (as requested by the OP).

Masterstroke

All has been said now. So I deleted my post. Sorry.

Richard Haseltine

Four times the polygon count is one level of sub-division. I was not saying make HD morphs - I was saying that you can make a morph for the base mesh and it doesn't need to have as many vertices devoted to smoothing, since the SubD will deal with most rought spots, as is the case for the Victoria 4 mesh, which isn't usually smoothed. With the higher definition base mesh you can choose two locations for a change compared to a genesis (on average, sicne the distribution of density isn't the same on both figures), but you will need to use at least one extra set of verts either side to smooth the result out in most cases which largely nullifies the detail beenfit of the denser base mesh.

IsaacNewton

Richard Haseltine said:

Four times the polygon count is one level of sub-division. I was not saying make HD morphs - I was saying that you can make a morph for the base mesh and it doesn't need to have as many vertices devoted to smoothing, since the SubD will deal with most rought spots, as is the case for the Victoria 4 mesh, which isn't usually smoothed. With the higher definition base mesh you can choose two locations for a change compared to a genesis (on average, sicne the distribution of density isn't the same on both figures), but you will need to use at least one extra set of verts either side to smooth the result out in most cases which largely nullifies the detail beenfit of the denser base mesh.

Fine, then why can't high definition mesh morphs be made on Genesis 8 without the HD technology? The reality is that when I have a Genesis 8 figure in ZBrush I can NOT make high definition mesh morphs. I have tried subD in ZB then morphing then reduce subD back to original, but the unmorphed mesh is not returned to the original state, there are subtle but definite changes across the whole mesh. In summary, I can NOT make high definition mesh morphs on Genesis 8, no matter how many levels of subD I apply in DS.

Richard Haseltine

Again, I was not referring to HD moprhs but to regular morphs and the impact that the lower mesh resolution in Genesis compared to Victoria 4 has on their potential.

nightwolf1982

Aside from the morphing issue, there's also the issue of updating the rather massive V4 Clothing library.  I don't have an exact count, but I'm sure I've got at least a couple hundred outfits/items in my library alone, not to mention the thousands of outfits/items available around the web.  Updating to or creating a Victoria 4.3 would likely mean having to create a whole new line of wardrobe items, which most artists just aren't going to want to invest in.

Edit:  Forgot to mention, this is why, I think, that the "V4 Weightmapped" figure never took off.

Silvert

A good option would be a better method for applying V4 morphs and skins to the current character types.

Pinupper

nightwolf1982 said:

Aside from the morphing issue, there's also the issue of updating the rather massive V4 Clothing library.  I don't have an exact count, but I'm sure I've got at least a couple hundred outfits/items in my library alone, not to mention the thousands of outfits/items available around the web.  Updating to or creating a Victoria 4.3 would likely mean having to create a whole new line of wardrobe items, which most artists just aren't going to want to invest in.

Edit:  Forgot to mention, this is why, I think, that the "V4 Weightmapped" figure never took off.

I actually thought of the massive library issue as well. It is without question that a lot artists have moved on from the V4 figure, but some still create content for it. DAZ and Poser artists' skills have improved over the years and updating their previous content could be a way to pay tribute to a character that kickstarted their hobby. Tribute doesn't necessarily mean it would translate to sales admittedly.

Leana

Silvert said:

A good option would be a better method for applying V4 morphs and skins to the current character types.

There are already tools to convert skins up to G8. For morphs, GenX2 and its add-ons will get you up to G3.

namtar3d

IsaacNewton said:

DAZ has moved to a new paradigm for their characters. V4 was relatively high poly count and therefore amenable to morphing by almost anyone. Not so good for DAZ character/morph sales. The Genesis range seem to have less and less polygons on each successive generation; the characters rely on subdivision on the fly within DAZ Studio to achieve their high quality mesh appearence. The lower poly count of the Genesis series means making detailed mesh morphs is more difficult at best and impossible for some morphs, unless you are a DAZ PA, when you have access to DAZ propriety HD technology which enables making HD detailed morphs. This is better for DAZ sales of detailed morphs for their characters. Makes good business sense for DAZ. So DAZ upgrading the rigging of V4 is not very likely as V4++ would compete (rather well, IMO) with the Genesis series and risk losing character/morph sales to third parties.

That's pretty frustrating and limitating for artists too.  That's the reason V4 is so beloved for community, even without the new possibilities, she's still very friendly to work with. 

 

 Third party vendors make the catalog of V4 bigger than all 4 genesis generations, toghether.  I remember so many pages and artists with amazing and imaginative products, that i wish i would be millonaire to buy every single one of them. That never affected my decission to buy or not Daz products. 

   

wolf359 said:

Pinupper said:

 

Due to the continued popularity of the iconic Victoria 4, an updated version perhaps could be explored.

V4 only remains "popular" with poser users....for now at least.

I don't think so.  I already make the jump to genesis, but there's a lot of V4 characters i love and i wish i could use on "V4.3"   

 

For me the jump to genesis was about not becoming obsolete, but seriously, i'm still think would be better an update for V4.   (Also, i don't love to buy every generation a new Victoria, a new Teen Josie, a new Olimpia, etc that feels worst than spiderman reboots every year) 

 

If upgrades to base figures could be managed as a service, i think artists could spend more time creating new products than remaking again and again the same base character. I would be more interested to buy these new products, than to buy (again) Victoria 8, Victoria 9, Victoria 10, etc

nicstt

Silvert said:

A good option would be a better method for applying V4 morphs and skins to the current character types.

There is a great method of applying skins; I covert them with Blacksmith Pro; Morphs, I've only ever bothered transfering one.