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Even if Perception neuron charged $1500, it would sure beat a company like Ipisoft who now is on the subscription system and charges up to $1200 a year for their software, depending on the option you choose. At least, with Perception Neuron, you own both hardware and software and, from what I have seen, it is much, much more accurate than Ipisoft with Kinect.
I can't wait until Perception Neuron makes their system available. I'll find the money.
I bought an older version 2 of Ipisoft a while back (before it was setup on an annual basis) and just bought the noncommercial version of Faceshift. I am okay for the time being.
OK, this might be a dumb newbie question, but... I loaded Giselle as a character, put her in the Jungle Girl outfit, then exported the FBX as per the video.
When I exported, it changed from Giselle's morph back to the basic "G2F" shape while it went through all the facial animations.
I didn't think much of that, but when I ran the 3DXchange program, it imported the figure in as the G2F shape, not the Giselle shape.
Am I missing something? I was under the impression you could load G2 characters into iClone... is it just the "generic" shape? Or is there something I'm not doing in order to apply the morphs?
Any help is appreciated.
EDIT: A-ha! You have to "lock" the morphs. Answer found, I'm gonna leave it here in case it helps anybody else.
Yup!
@jaebea
If iclone6 does not have a mocap plugin, why does it mention it here?
"If you wish to take iClone to the next level, then get the PRO version with its enhanced plug-in architecture for use with the Indigo Render Plug-in and other Mocap plug-ins" That is straight from the description in the pro version of Iclone6.
@Argus..
Regarding Perception Neuron, do you know if they are planning on building support in iclone6 for it? or is that something you would like for them to do? I was one of the backers of the PN campaign, if Reallusion has this planned, it will be a definite plus for me..
Right now iClone 6 has no mocap support. Perception Neuron support will be developed in future for version 6. In iClone 5.5 there is Kinect Support and they dropped Kinect support for v6, changed their mind and will support Kinect in future.
The description of iClone describes the future, not the actual status. If you buy iClone 6 you will get all those features.. some day. iClone is right now a promising product. You buy a beta version and wait for all the promises to be fulfilled within maybe the next year. They are a small developer Team.
- Generation 6 figures are not yet finished
- Indigo Integration is beta (Cameras dont match with iClone and animations eat up your harddrive producing Gigabytes temporary files)
- New Substances from Allegorithmic are not completely integrated
- New Speed Trees are buggy and tend to vanish, when you render; Nobody can build SpeedTrees for iClone except for Reallusion right now
@aspin
Thanks for your response.. hmm.. that does change things a little, perhaps better to wait a bit then.. I'll stick to Motionbuilder for now.
HEY EVERYONE,
I'm back on the forums.
First thing is first - Bryan Steagall and the mocap question:
Hi Bryan, thank you for your support and praise on iClone 6! Its always a rocky start but we always get things going. =)
MOCAP - For a while now, Reallusion has been a Microsoft partner. When MS started heavily promoting their Kinect camera back in 2009 we were one of the few companies in the world that they chose to push the Kinect with. The mocap plug-in was introduced for iClone 5 and things started to get interesting. Later on we started getting a lot of criticism from the market saying that the mocap plug-in was a toy, that it only had one side view, that occlusion was a major issue, that no professional work could be done with it, etc. So we kept the mocap plug-in for iClone 5, but continued to search for other affordable options in the market. === Queue the development of iClone 6 ==== once iC6 started taking shape our developers were already in talks with a few world-renown mocap systems. (Bryan, you mention that you have suggestions for other systems that you would like to share with us. Reallusion is always trying new possibilities, so please feel free to PM me your ideas, and I'll take them directly to our developers.) Eventually our testers singled out NOITOM Perception Neuron Systems, both for their accuracy and price. [People are often quick to complain about a price that hovers over $1,000. But when you see the kind of accuracy and flexibility that a professional system like NOITOM offers over other systems that cost USD $8,000 and UP, then you realize its huge value] For the record, we do not manufacture the NOITOM system. We are only creating the upcoming iClone 6 Mocap plug-in that will allow real-time connectivity with NOITOM. So the final price of the hardware does not depend on us. Also, not sure if you were aware but when developing iClone 6 we designed its architecture in a way that makes it easily open to other systems to. So it is not outside of the possibility for iClone 6 to be easily compatible with other mocap systems in the near future.
So what will happen with Kinect?
OK, so after we took Kinect off the board for iClone 6, surely enough we got bombarded with the other side of the market demanding that we bring it back because many of them already had the first Kinect version. So just like the DirectX11 and DirectX9 fiasco, Reallusion took things into consideration and decided to bring things back for the benefit of our legacy users. Here I'd like to take this opportunity to clear things up. ----- At Reallusion, we are always trying to move forward, may it be with the latest technologies (DirectX11), or the best hardware that the industry has to offer. So many times if we take something out from our previous version its because we have plans to either improve it, or we will be offering something better. But as you can imagine, either way we are always upsetting someone. One thing that you can be sure of is that we are a company that is constantly delivering on what we promised. Don't believe me? Look at our track record--- You can go on the Reallusion forums and read up on all the old posts when iClone 5 was coming out, read about the bugs and issues people were reporting. Then compare that to the road-map of when those bugs and issues got hammered out. And you will realize that it took a few months.... not the next year. The same things with iClone 6, yes there are issues. But we get to them, and we get to them as quickly as you report them because we to are customers, and we to understand the emotion of not getting what you paid for. So there you have it. Politely report issues, be a little patient, and things will get delivered.
iClone 6 Road-map
Enough with the talk, so when, when, when?!! The Kinect Mocap plug-in will be back for iClone 6, around May of this year. That's like 2 months away. Maybe even earlier. [ update for iClone 6.03 ]
For the iClone 6 NOITOM Plug-in, our schedule is for Q3, 2015.
Now I am being conservative with the dates as I know people will try to crucify me if the update is postponed a month or so.
. 6.03 - iC6 Kinect Mocap (Release date: May, or earlier)
. 6.04 - 3DX6 Basic Version (Release date: June, or earlier)
. 6.1 - G6 Character Improvements (Release date: 6.5)
. 6.2 - Noitom Plug-in (Release date: sooooooooooon)
-----------------------------
There it is people. No more mystery and no more speculation.
That is what we have in the works and hopefully, no big delays pop up.
How exciting!!
@Realtimer
Thank you sir for that update! This gives me a timeframe that I can base my purchase on. The fact that you are developing this plugin is a big plus for me. I'll keep tabs on your progress
The people in iClone's office are sure putting their money where their mouth is: some people are "bombarded" at the office; other people are in fear of being "crucified". Nothing like a team really involved in their work, even to the detriment of their health. No matter: the show must go on.
More seriously, I really appreciate the Reallusion team for keeping in touch with their customers about their software development. That's more than Daz can say.
@Realtimer
PM'd you some remarks
@Realtimer
Hi Realtimer , I don't know who you are but I really need a person like you on the Reallusion forum .....
I'm in love with Iclone since the 4 version. Iclone 6 is tremendous!!!
But I can't believe that there is a person who is directly in contact with the reallusion developpers on Daz forum but not in the
reallusion forum!!! Is the reallusion forum a fake? Are Daz users more professional ?
Seriously your input are for some of us (reallusion forum) vital because of a professional pipeline development.
By the way , I backed the 10 neurons pledge but for now , the Noitom project is a disaster on term of marketing.
1500$ for a theorical technology that nobody tried needs more efficients info.....
Lot of user can't register on the forum.
Anyway you can tell to the reallusion developpers, I am an ambassader of their tool. I'm only waiting of the Neuron mocap
to start a team production of realtime CG movie.
Dear Mtakerkart
We are glad to hear that you appreciate iClone, and our efforts. Thank you for your kind words.
Reallusion is really making huge strides in the industry --- I say this not just because I am part of the company, but because I am in the middle of everything that is happening here. It is very exciting to see what our company has achieved in such a short time, and it is even more exciting to see what is coming in the future... So far, I have only shared with our DAZ community what is already coming out of the woodworks, but if I could give you a sneak peek of what is planned for the end of 2015, or even the next year. You guys would really be blown away! So thank you for believing in us, and thank you for sticking around. We really mean that.
Perception Neuron (NOITOM) is also making progress. Its not easy to run a start-up and get all that backing in such a short time. But their product is solid, and it works. We have some of their prototype suits in our office, and I played with one. AMAZING. I personally like the fact that we no longer need special cameras capturing our movements in a very large room. That is a thing of the past. With NOITOM you can even mocap in a cramped bathroom.... just as long as each sensor signal is reaching the workstation. Once NOITOM starts delivering their product, we will all be in for a ride!
On the Reallusion forums we have dedicated team members providing updated information and solutions. But they prefer to do it in a more official way. On the Reallusion forums we also have a lot of very skilled iClone power users that are quick to provide help and suggestions to other users. Here on the DAZ forums to, we see some very generous people that know about DAZ and iClone, and are quick to provide help to others. So we want to foster this community and help it grow with knowledge and ideas.
Its Friday today, so things are a bit more relaxed in the office here.
I'll surely bump into some of our developers and let them know about your kind support. =)
Thanks a bunch people, and have a great weekend !!
The Reallusion Team
That's a heck of a typo. I don't expect NOITOM will be using that quote on the website. :)
That's a heck of a typo. I don't expect NOITOM will be using that quote on the website. :)
if you stay seated you would not get a motion happening would you. :-P
I don't know about other people, but I make all kinds of subtle and revealing motions when I'm seated in the bathroom, taking care of business. I might be inclined to think deep thoughts about the meaning of life. Consequently, I may lift my head and direct my gaze far in the distance. I might even move my chest a little. My legs might part a tiny bit and my hands will surely subtly move along my thighs. Moreover, as I ponder such deep thoughts, I might even scratch my head in puzzlement. All kinds of things might happen in the bathroom. You never know.
All of this can be infallibly captured by Perception Neuron. No other capture system, even the $10000 ones, can boast of such an accomplishment.
I don't know about other people, but I make all kinds of subtle and revealing motions when I'm seated in the bathroom, taking care of business. I might be inclined to think deep thoughts about the meaning of life. Consequently, I may lift my head and direct my gaze far in the distance. I might even move my chest a little. My legs might part a tiny bit and my hands will surely subtly move along my thighs. Moreover, as I ponder such deep thoughts, I might even scratch my head in puzzlement. All kinds of things might happen in the bathroom. You never know.
All of this can be infallibly captured by Perception Neuron. No other capture system, even the $10000 ones, can boast of such an accomplishment.
I use my android tablet while seated on wee throne
@Realtimer
Thank you very much for your kind words.
For now I'm really ok with Iclone 6.
The only missed things for my pipeline is :
-Importing fbx facial mocap
-Timeline Curve editor
I'll look at this forum more often....
That's a heck of a typo. I don't expect NOITOM will be using that quote on the website. :)
LOL! My goodness. I just noticed that...
Agreed, the ability to import morph animations via FBX into iClone would be great.
Then this would allow users to get facial mocap animations done with a tool like Brekel Pro Face 2 from DAZ Studio into iClone. Imagine the possibilities!
Also, Realtimer, please tell me an animation Graph Editor is coming soon to iClone. I honestly believe without this vital animation tool, iClone will forever be overlooked as a serious piece of software in the animation world.
Hey Everyone,
For facial mocap, Yes. That will be a feature in iClone 6 pretty soon. Right now we are already working with Microsoft's updated Kinect SDK, and also Intel's PrimeSense to see how we can integrate them with iClone for facial mocap. (I'll show you guys some sneak previews once I've got some cool videos at hand) For the FBX facial mocap, the issue that we normally have is that there are so many characters with different facial rigging, and they all have to be standardized in order to be used inside iClone's Universal Avatar system. That is why we have 3DXchange, in order to covert them to iClone-ready characters. So naturally FBX is the direction that we want to go in, but there are many things and standards we need to hammer out first.
A Timeline Curve editor (animation graph editor) is a feature that high-end applications like Maya always have. They are complicated, you need to know what you are doing, and they give you beautifully detailed control over every little bit of your animation... I can see why some masochists might want it. Haaa! j/k It shouldn't be to hard to implement into iClone, but the truth is that we have so much on our plate right now that it would have to come later. Another thing is ---- the vision and direction that we have for iClone.
Since its inception iClone has always been about making real-time animations in a smooth and organic way. Allowing literally anyone to create quick and decent looking animations in no time at all without the need for vast training, experience or effort. This has always been the dream for iClone, and we are always looking into the future to newer technology that can allow us break down the barriers between animation and the human interface. You can tell that we are slowly inching towards that dream. Now if we implement a Timeline Curve Editor, it sort of defeats the purpose of iClone's organic animation creation, and it simply bunches us with all the other professional tools out there. I am not saying that it would not enhance iClone, it would, but we are trying to go in a different direction >>> we are trying to create an animation system that will allow people to organically create animations, and later seamlessly blend 2, 3 or more animations together. Just like the MixMoves system we originally built, but something that can be used for almost any type of motion. Now throw in this capability for mocap generated animations, and we are really cooking ----- For example, at the moment we are working to develop an automatic locomotion system that will calculate your character's steps by taking into consideration speed, distance, length of limbs, tempo of animation, style of animation, terrain and others. A system that will automatically calculate and create everything for you without the need to actually go into each X,Y,Z axis for rotation and translation in order to get the proper transition curve. Our belief is that computer processors are getting faster and cheaper, and we want to help you exploit that. So let the machine do all the work! Enough with the old-school way of manually having to create everything.... AMEN? :-) (I should have been a preacher)
So you see what we are trying to do right?
Eventually, we will have to add a timeline curve editor. It makes sense to do so. But its not going to happen just right this quarter. =)
Sooooooo many thanks for your input Realtimer !! You really make my day with the facial mocap implementation!!!
I use the Fuse character generator (Mixamo) wich works very fine in Iclone via 3Dxchange. It had facial blenshape and they use the Maya
rig setting. It will be very cool if your Facial mocap works inside the facial puppet feature because it will mean that all non-standard characters
rig and set in 3Dxchange could be animate!!! :-)
I understand for the curve editor. I will use Akeytsu when it'll release for very specific animation: http://www.nukeygara.com
I would get my Neuronmocap in 4 weeks. So I think I could start a serious production this summer.
I am very excited to see your videos!!!
Are you sure? First, the Perception neuron rigs were supposed to be available last February. I'm waiting until they'e actually available on the market, with good reviews, to buy.
@argus1000
Yes , I'm pretty shure regarding the Kickstarter update. I'll pledged last year for the 10 Neurons package.
They begin to ship for the backers now.
First off, Realtimer, thank you for your detailed response and candor. I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to hear from someone on the inside who been this straightforward and honest. As a user, it really means a lot.
Also, I completely understand Reallusion's desire to keep iClone welcoming and simple for anyone to load it up and start animating quickly. However, I believe that, within that reasoning, a flaw is exposed.
All children who ride bicycles will outgrow their training wheels.
iClone users who have sharpened their animation skills beyond the beginner and intermediate levels may find they have exceeded the program's limitations. So why hamstring their abilities? Why not at least offer some advanced features like a Graph/Timeline Curve Editor IF they want to use them? Otherwise, it’s possible they will become so frustrated that they feel they have no choice but to jump ship for a more advanced piece of software.
Now, I’m not suggesting iClone should compete with more professional tools like Maya and 3dsmax, but to at least allow users to take the kid gloves off if and when they want to. For example, iClone users cannot rotate a prop inside the program 360 degrees without some convoluted method like this. Why? Additionally, why not allow users the ability to turn OFF Auto-Keyframing on the timeline? (Both iClone and DAZ Studio do not offer this simple feature despite users requesting it time and time again).
The bottom-line is: complexity isn't a vice.
Now, with regards to facial mocap, iClone adding this feature is great news. As someone who started doing animations with programs like Byrce, Poser, and DAZ Studio almost a decade ago, it's an exciting time be interested in 3D animation. From your statement, it sounds like iClone's Facial Mocap pipeline will be a markless capture workflow via a Kinect or PrimeSense camera similar to programs like Brekel, Faceshift and Mixamo's Face Plus.
In my opinion, though, each one of those programs produce results that are just... decent. A solid first pass. The head and eye movements are often jittery and the entire animation seems slightly more robotic than human. So animators who want a more polished, professional looking face animation have to go beyond the raw capture and adjust it on both a keyframe and timeline curve level--not only to remove those sporadic and jittery movements but to ensure that the avatar's lips actually sync with the recorded dialogue. Otherwise, what's the point? So, the inclusion of facial mocap in iClone is great but I'm a bit leary that without the ability to burrow deep into the keyframe animation, the results will limited to a certain quality level.
Anyway, I do not want this reply came off as negative. It's not. iClone is a great program and offers a lot of potential to not only DAZ animators but all animation enthusiasts. I just beg you to not limit it. Allow users grow and be as advanced as possible.
Thanks!
@Artman009
I understand your point of view for curve editor. But a programer using Iclone said in the reallusion forum that to implementation of
curve editor takes huge and deep hardwork programming , that's why Realtimmer said that it will may implemented later.
For Facial mocap I'm very comfortable with faceshift witch have a "autosmoother" keyframe and it's a very good level for my pipeline.
My production don't need Pixar level for facial anime ;-)
Adobe dives too in the realtime animation with camera , take a look at this:
https://youtu.be/lmPo0_WZyPU
This level of animation of the face regarding the speed of production is enough for my pipeline too. Because I hire real actors,
Good voicing are more convincing and it's very easy and fast to produce.
Hi Artman009
Thank you very much for your comments. We really appreciate your suggestions and please don't feel that its seen in a negative light. All the contrary!
You know, its interesting that we continue talking about this now because just last week I had a meeting with our CEO and we were discussing the Timeline Curve Editor. He is an avid fan of animation tools and video games, and he knows exactly where you are coming from when you ask for more advanced options. With iClone its always a challenge to implement new and more advanced options, while at the same time continuing to develop powerful and automatic features for everyday users. And yes, you are totally right about the part where we at some point have to remove the training wheels for our power users. This is why we have started to offer different versions of our software like Standard, PRO, and Pipeline (3DXchange) as some users do not need all the advanced options.
At this point, all I can say is that a Timeline curve editor WILL eventually come to iClone. The big man even smiled and kept quiet for a good 5 seconds when I asked him "when". Haaa! Like I said, its just a matter of allocating the resources in our company for that project. I'll give you guys a heads up if I spy anything on our developer's board. ;-)
The ability to turn OFF Auto-Keyframing on the timeline ----- I've never heard of this request but I can surely bring it up with our team.
The Facial Mocap possibilities I mentioned are just some that we have on the table right now. So I don't want to discard the chances of having other tools work with iClone later. Marker-less tracking might have some limitations as you mentioned, but at the end there is always room to improve on it with the timeline. One very cool thing that we have in store, is the future possibility for the upcoming CrazyTalk 8 to work with iClone.
Our plans are to turn CrazyTalk 8 into a facial animation super tool, complete with 3D heads and facial mocap. In the past I've worked a lot with CrazyTalk 7, so I am very familiar with its powerful facial animation features. Now combine all that, with the upcoming enhancements + the ability to export those animations + 3D heads, and BOOM! >> we've got more people complaining... :lol:
@Realtimer
I'm not surprised about to put facial mocap in crazytalk. I think there was a very old version of CT give the possibility to anime
a face with a webcam , didn't it ?
Does that mean that you'll can import the CTS data to iclone?
About The ability to turn OFF Auto-Keyframing on the timeline , there's lot of demand in the Reallusion forum for this , I think Peter
forget to send the info ;-)
Hey Mtakerkart,
Yup, we used to have an old CT version that kinda worked with Skype or something way back in the day. "Does that mean that we will be able to import CTS Data to iClone?" Yuppo, that is exactly what that means. And even better, we are currently considering if we will allow for FBX export to other 3D tools. Got your attention now huh?
For the ability to turn OFF Auto-Keyframing.
I just sent this request to our lead developer and he just messaged me back >>>>>
[ Hello, Yes, this feature is already in our 2015 roadmap for iClone.
We are planning have a play mode in Q3, the schedule just needs to be updated.]
I love our iClone developers. You know what they remind me of? Do you guys remember the The Doozers, from the old Fraggle Rock muppet show on HBO back in 1983? Well they remind me of our iClone developers here. Brilliant. Hard working. Humble. And under appreciated.
Quick!
Someone make a Doozer animation with iClone, and I'll show it in our monthly developer meeting!