Petrified brows and the "wax museum" look of expressions

mavante

I have spent more hours than I'd care to admit poring through the store pages for "expressions" packages, and I have yet to come across any that don't seem to have a somewhat eerie "wax museum" quality in the "various" expressions. I put "various" in quotes advisidely, because the elusive quality I'm trying to describe (and find some way around) is a subtle "sameness" from expression to expression, even among expressions supposedly "happy" versus "mad" or "sad." In fact, some of the "happy" expressions are downright scary.

I've been trying to put my finger on what causes that weird "look" in so many of the expressions, and I'm beginning to think it's that the brows (eyebrows and foreheads) seem relatively petrified in so many that I've seen. It's like no matter what gets changed about the mouth and eyes, the brows almost never change at all, or, if so, only by small amounts that are simply out of proportioin to the rest of the expression elements. For instance, make a really happy face in the mirror. The eyebrows go well up, and the forehead wrinkles accordingly—but not on these characters.

Is this phenomenon an inherent limitation in the DAZ characters and the available morphs? Or does anybody know of any "expressions" package that really pulls out all the stops, and allows for dialing in realistic, all-in, full-blown joy or dejection or anger?

EDITED TO ADD: As I do all too often, after I posted this I stumbled across a package in the store that has biometric expressions for happiness and joy, and is worlds different from others—answering my own question. Not sure if it's allowed for me to post a link (when I'm essentially answering my own question!), but it's easy to find with the key words in this addition. The expressions it shows in its promos are far more "human" than most expressions packs I've seen, at least to me. They look so much more "alive" and realistic. I hope more people will follow this path for character products.

TheKD

One tip, never go into the expressions folder and click apply. Use the sliders instead, I can't think of a single expression sold, that looks anywhere near good at over 50%. Most time I start off with a preset slid to like 20% -  40%, then tweak the eyes, tweak the mouth etc, or mix a few expression sliders together at ~10% each.

The sliders you can find in the posing tab, go to the figure> pose controls> Head> expressions for those that do not know.

Chohole

mavante said:

I have spent more hours than I'd care to admit poring through the store pages for "expressions" packages, and I have yet to come across any that don't seem to have a somewhat eerie "wax museum" quality in the "various" expressions. I put "various" in quotes advisidely, because the elusive quality I'm trying to describe (and find some way around) is a subtle "sameness" from expression to expression, even among expressions supposedly "happy" versus "mad" or "sad." In fact, some of the "happy" expressions are downright scary.

I've been trying to put my finger on what causes that weird "look" in so many of the expressions, and I'm beginning to think it's that the brows (eyebrows and foreheads) seem relatively petrified in so many that I've seen. It's like no matter what gets changed about the mouth and eyes, the brows almost never change at all, or, if so, only by small amounts that are simply out of proportioin to the rest of the expression elements. For instance, make a really happy face in the mirror. The eyebrows go well up, and the forehead wrinkles accordingly—but not on these characters.

Is this phenomenon an inherent limitation in the DAZ characters and the available morphs? Or does anybody know of any "expressions" package that really pulls out all the stops, and allows for dialing in realistic, all-in, full-blown joy or dejection or anger?

EDITED TO ADD: As I do all too often, after I posted this I stumbled across a package in the store that has biometric expressions for happiness and joy, and is worlds different from others—answering my own question. Not sure if it's allowed for me to post a link (when I'm essentially answering my own question!), but it's easy to find with the key words in this addition. The expressions it shows in its promos are far more "human" than most expressions packs I've seen, at least to me. They look so much more "alive" and realistic. I hope more people will follow this path for character products.

If it is in the Daz store by all means post a link, please.

nonesuch00

No, you are correct and it's because the surrounding areas of the face are almost 100% unaffected when an expression is applied in the DAZ 3D & Poser world, when in reality muscles and skin are very heavily involved. Some people have gotten so use to seeing this wax museum type Vogue & 3D faces that they think anytime they see a model with a real expression with the multitude of wrinkling needed and involved that the model is older looking. Go look at real pictures of even small children laughing and tell me there isn't heavy wrinkling involved.

Anyway, this product Auto Face Enhancer  is the best offered so far to offer wrinkles & mesh deformations like real muscles & skin but the PA is not finished yet. Note that it's really only for an environment like DAZ 3D, in a game they use way too many polygons but of course they will change in the future.

mavante

TheKD said:

One tip, never go into the expressions folder and click apply. Use the sliders instead, I can't think of a single expression sold, that looks anywhere near good at over 50%. Most time I start off with a preset slid to like 20% -  40%, then tweak the eyes, tweak the mouth etc, or mix a few expression sliders together at ~10% each.

The sliders you can find in the posing tab, go to the figure> pose controls> Head> expressions for those that do not know.

Thanks for the tips, TheKD.

 

mavante

Chohole said:

mavante said:

after I posted this I stumbled across a package in the store that has biometric expressions for happiness and joy, and is worlds different from others—answering my own question. Not sure if it's allowed for me to post a link (when I'm essentially answering my own question!), but it's easy to find with the key words in this addition. The expressions it shows in its promos are far more "human" than most expressions packs I've seen, at least to me. They look so much more "alive" and realistic. I hope more people will follow this path for character products.

If it is in the Daz store by all means post a link, please.

Great! Here it is:

Biometric Expressions: Happiness and Joy! for Genesis 3 Female(s)

https://www.daz3d.com/biometric-expressions-happiness-and-joy-for-genesis-3-female-s

 

 

mavante

nonesuch00 said:

No, you are correct and it's because the surrounding areas of the face are almost 100% unaffected when an expression is applied in the DAZ 3D & Poser world, when in reality muscles and skin are very heavily involved. Some people have gotten so use to seeing this wax museum type Vogue & 3D faces that they think anytime they see a model with a real expression with the multitude of wrinkling needed and involved that the model is older looking. Go look at real pictures of even small children laughing and tell me there isn't heavy wrinkling involved.

Anyway, this product Auto Face Enhancer  is the best offered so far to offer wrinkles & mesh deformations like real muscles & skin but the PA is not finished yet. Note that it's really only for an environment like DAZ 3D, in a game they use way too many polygons but of course they will change in the future.

Thanks for the info, nonesuch00. Yes, you get exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks, too, for the info about and link to  Auto Face Enhancer. Looks like that could open up lots of possibilities for more "human" expressions.