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I'm speaking of the whole set. Even then, they weren't as flexible as Genesis, especially when it comes to scaling.
I think the emphasis of Genesis is on unique characters, so at face value you wouldn't need as many morphs as you needed in Gen4. You needed that many in Gen4 so you could have more of a range and still have a universal set of morphs as a guide to fit the clothing. No one really made custom body morphs in Gen4 because you would have to find ways to fit them in clothing. Even with with all the morphs, vendors only did a subset of them and you would need a tool like Morphing Clothes to get the rest of the morphs into clothing. Genesis really takes care of the clothing issue and you would need less of a subset to work with.
The shapes in Genesis give a base to start with and then you would modify it from there, similar to M4 or V4. However if you need to take out features you didn't like, you would have to fall back to a modelling tool, and Genesis is no different. You can use magnets or hexagon or another tool to fix the mesh and bring it back.
I'm not talking about Genesis as a whole. I'm talking about the ability to make different looking figures, especially faces on the figure as it's released by Daz right from the start. I'm asking about the different approaches that are being taken for these newer figures and asking what the reasons may be.
I've stated and conceded that Genesis and the G2F/M figures are of higher quality in terms of geometry, bending and details. I don't need to be told by other users how I can work around what isn't there.
Then that case, you're definitely using custom morphs. This hasn't changed from Gen4 either.
No, they were not custom morphs. The Morphs ++ packages for M4 & V4 came with several named faced morphs.
No, they were not custom morphs. The Morphs ++ packages for M4 & V4 came with several named faced morphs.
Yes, and you got those as you needed a large enough set of morphs as a guide for content creators to work with so more things fit. Anything added later required the end user to update content using 3rd party tools, since vendors would generally not update products to fit those items. Genesis is a lot more flexible so you don't need as many guides or have them set in the beginning so they get supported by PAs.
Yes, and you got those as you needed a large enough set of morphs as a guide for content creators to work with so more things fit. Anything added later required the end user to update content using 3rd party tools, since vendors would generally not update products to fit those items. Genesis is a lot more flexible so you don't need as many guides or have them set in the beginning so they get supported by PAs.
Individual face morphs have nothing to do with fitting clothing.
Yes, and you got those as you needed a large enough set of morphs as a guide for content creators to work with so more things fit. Anything added later required the end user to update content using 3rd party tools, since vendors would generally not update products to fit those items. Genesis is a lot more flexible so you don't need as many guides or have them set in the beginning so they get supported by PAs.
Individual face morphs have nothing to do with fitting clothing.
It does with hair, masks, helmets, etc.
No, they were not custom morphs. The Morphs ++ packages for M4 & V4 came with several named faced morphs.
That's half correct. Those faces do come with the Morphs++ set, but those aren't actually sculpted morphs. Rather, they're pre-set combinations of the existing morphs. For example, if you zero V4.2 and dial up Emma, you'll see that a number of the other head dials start changing. At 100% Emma, you've got EyesPuffyTop at -21.2% and EyesPuffyBottom at -23, while BrowHeavy is at 18.2%, etc., etc.. In other words, they're exactly what you would get if you just set all those the dials manually.
Individual face morphs have nothing to do with fitting clothing.
It does with hair, masks, helmets, etc.
many of which are props that were easily adjusted
That's half correct. Those faces do come with the Morphs++ set, but those aren't actually sculpted morphs. Rather, they're pre-set combinations of the existing morphs. For example, if you zero V4.2 and dial up Emma, you'll see that a number of the other head dials start changing. At 100% Emma, you've got EyesPuffyTop at -21.2% and EyesPuffyBottom at -23, while BrowHeavy is at 18.2%, etc., etc.. In other words, they're exactly what you would get if you just set all those the dials manually.
Sculpted or not, they were still easy to spin dials to get distinctive looking faces and it's a feature I miss for the post-Generation 4 figures.
With a sculpted morph simply being a preset of existing dials, can it really be considered a unique morph at that point? The issue with using preset dials is that you can no longer combine them in the same way, since adjusting one may push one of the dials to its limits. There are absolutely tons of preset faces for Genesis 1&2 which don't have this restriction and you can simply mix and match them at your leisure. Granted you don't get them with the default Genesis figure, but if you factor in the purchase of V4 along with the morph packs, then you'd still end up paying less for a Genesis figure with the same customisations and indeed all the benefits of Genesis as well.
As already pointed out, the sheer volume of morphs was largely for correcting and fitting, not for making unique figures. With Genesis' morph packs you don't need those extra bits so all of the morphs can focus on giving you flexibility.
I find it easier to make distinctive characters using Genesis and Genesis 2 than I ever did using Generation 4 figures, excepting pre-made figure morphs.
With a sculpted morph simply being a preset of existing dials, can it really be considered a unique morph at that point? The issue with using preset dials is that you can no longer combine them in the same way, since adjusting one may push one of the dials to its limits. There are absolutely tons of preset faces for Genesis 1&2 which don't have this restriction and you can simply mix and match them at your leisure. Granted you don't get them with the default Genesis figure, but if you factor in the purchase of V4 along with the morph packs, then you'd still end up paying less for a Genesis figure with the same customisations and indeed all the benefits of Genesis as well.
As already pointed out, the sheer volume of morphs was largely for correcting and fitting, not for making unique figures. With Genesis' morph packs you don't need those extra bits so all of the morphs can focus on giving you flexibility.
I find it easier to make distinctive characters using Genesis and Genesis 2 than I ever did using Generation 4 figures, excepting pre-made figure morphs.
I do not agree that there are tons of preset faces for G2M compared to M4. I don't agree that the costs for G2M with all the same face morphs as M4 is comparable.
If you want to take issue with my use of the word unique, go ahead. The preset face morphs, like Eric or Jeremy, could be combined with any other dialed face morph option on M4 with the ++ loaded.
You guys are making this about Genesis being more advanced, which I have never said it isn't.
No, I think the issue is that we think you're leaping to a conclusion based on two sets of numbers that aren't really comparable, as what you're not taking into account is 1.) all the unseen morphs and control rigs built into the Genesis 2 essentials pack (a couple of thousand of them,) and 2.) the fact that over half of the morphs in the Morphs++ pack don't show up as shaping dials. Rather, the largest percentage actually go to the separate V4.2 to V3.cr2, which bends V4.2 into a shape that can take V3's clothing, while many others are "lost" in places where what are listed as multiple morphs actually appear in DAZ/Poser as a single dial, ie: things like the linea alba, which is actually the combination of three morphs for V4.2, one for the left side, one for the right and one for the crease, wheareas with G2F it's listed as a single morph.
That said, I finally got curious enough to pull all the morph dials over into excel so I could actually compare them side to side, head to head. And as it it turns out, the V4.2 plus the Morphs++ combination and the Genesis 2F with Body and Head Morphs are extremely close, but G2F actually has quite a few MORE body shaping options, with things like scapula shaping, collarbone detail, rectis width (which is not dirty, no matter how it sounds), finger width, and wrist and knee thickness. There were a few unique things that the V4.2M++ combo had, though, like a genital crease morph. Where G2F really pulled ahead was in the area of refinement, offering more subtle variation on the same basic set of morphs. Two good examples of this are side by side comparisons of the overall body shape dials and the breasts:
Body Shape Dials
G2F Androgynous............V4 -FBMAmazon.pz2
G2F Body Size............ V4 -FBMBodyBuilder.pz2
G2F Body Tone ............ V4 -FBMBulk.pz2
G2F Bodybuilder ............ V4 -FBMDefinition.pz2
G2F Bodybuilder Details............ V4 -FBMEmaciated.pz2
G2F Bodybuilder Size ............ V4 -FBMFitness.pz2
G2F Emaciated ............ V4 -FBMHeavy.pz2
G2F Fitness ............ V4 -FBMPearFigure.pz2
G2F Fitness Details ............ V4 -FBMThin.pz2
G2F Fitness Size ............ V4 -FBMVoluptuous.pz2
G2F Heavy ............ V4 -FBMYoung.pz2
G2F Height ............ V4 - Male
G2F Pear Figure ............ V4-Male no scale
G2F Thin
G2F Voluptuous
G2F Weight
Breast & Related Shape Dials
G2F Areolae Depth ............ V4 -PBMAreolaOut.pz2
G2F Areolae Diameter............ V4 -PBMAreolaPerk.pz2
G2F Areolae Perk ............V4 -PBMAreolaSize.pz2
G2F Breasts Cleavage............ V4 -PBMBreastDownL.pz2
G2F Breasts Diameter............ V4 -PBMBreastDownR.pz2
G2F Breasts Downward Slope............ V4 -PBMBreastInL.pz2
G2F Breasts Gone ............V4 -PBMBreastInR.pz2
G2F Breasts Heavy ............ V4 -PBMBreastOutL.pz2
G2F Breasts Implants ............ V4 -PBMBreastOutR.pz2
G2F Breasts Implants Left ............V4 -PBMBreastsCleavage.pz2
G2F Breasts Implants Right............ V4 -PBMBreastsCleavageWidth.pz2
G2F Breasts Natural ............V4 -PBMBreastsDiameter.pz2
G2F Breasts Natural Left ............V4 -PBMBreastsDroop.pz2
G2F Breasts Natural Right ............V4 -PBMBreastsFlatten.pz2
G2F Breasts Perk Side ............V4 -PBMBreastsHangForward.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 01 ............ V4 -PBMBreastsImplant.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 02 ............ V4 -PBMBreastsLarge.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 03 ............ V4 -PBMBreastsNatural.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 04 ............ V4 -PBMBreastsPerk.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 05 ............ V4 -PBMBreastsSize.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 06 ............ V4 -PBMBreastUpL.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 07 ............ V4 -PBMBreastUpR.pz2
G2F Breasts Shape 08 ............ V4 -PBMNipples.pz2
G2F Breasts Small ............ V4 -PBMNipplesBig.pz2
G2F Breasts Under Curve ............ V4 -PBMNipplesDepth.pz2
G2F Breasts Upward Slope............ V4 -PBMNipplesHeight.pz2
G2F Nipples Depth
G2F Nipples Diameter
G2F Nipples Large
G2F Nipples Size
The face was much closer. This is a tricky area to cross compare as V4.2/M++ has six “emotion” morphs in the shaping dial whereas with G2F these are in the posing tab. Likewise, whereas the 11 full head character dials like Brigette & Oliva are combinations of other dials, there ARE unique lip morphs attached to six of those shapes.
On the other hand, G2F does offer slightly more refinement in other areas. It has a crow’s feet morph and an extra forehead shape, for example. Then again, V4.2M++ has a wisdom tooth remove option. And while G2F tends to have a few more control dials on many features, I can’t honestly say that one is necessarily better than the other, just that they’re different ways of approaching the same problem. For example, on the nose, G2F has more control over the basic nose shape, while V4.2M++ has more controls for the philtrum:
G2F Nose Pinch ............V4 -NoseRidgeWidth.pz2
G2F Nose Ridge ............V4 -NoseRound.pz2
G2F Nose Ridge Width ............ V4 -NoseSeptumHeight.pz2
G2F Nose Septum Depth ............V4 -NoseSeptumWidth.pz2
G2F Nose Septum Height ............V4 -NoseSide-Side.pz2
G2F Nose Septum Width............ V4 -NoseSize.pz2
G2F Nose Side-Side ............V4 -NoseSlope.pz2
G2F Nose Size ............ V4 -NoseTipDepth.pz2
G2F Nose Skew ............V4 -NoseTipHeight.pz2
G2F Nose Tip Depth ............ V4 -NoseTipUp-Down.pz2
G2F Nose Tip Height ............ V4 -NoseTwist.pz2
G2F Nose Tip Round ............ V4 -NoseWidth.pz2
G2F Nose Tip Width ............ V4 -NostrilsCreaseDepth.pz2
G2F Nose Twist ............ V4 -NostrilsFleshSize.pz2
G2F Nose Width ............ V4 -NostrilsHeight.pz2
G2F Nostrils Depth ............ V4 -NostrilsHoleHeight.pz2
G2F Nostrils Flesh Size............ V4 -NostrilsHoleSize.pz2
G2F Nostrils Height ............ V4 -NostrilsWidth.pz2
G2F Nostrils Height Left............ V4 -PhiltrumCurve.pz2
G2F Nostrils Height Right............ V4 -PhiltrumDepth.pz2
G2F Nostrils Width ............ V4 -PhiltrumSlant.pz2
G2F Nostrils Width Left............ V4 -PhiltrumStrength.pz2
G2F Nostrils Width Right............ V4 -PhiltrumWidth.pz2
G2F Philtrum Angle
G2F Philtrum Depth
G2F Philtrum Width
So, in the end, I’ll let the face shaping contest stand as a statistical tie, to be broken by whether or not you prefer the preset faces or a few extra control dials. For the Body shaping, however, G2F comes out just a little ahead, and keep in mind that this is JUST G2F and the two basic morph packs.
I think you guys are the ones that are leaping to conclusions and assuming that I am inferring something I'm not. Azdan understood what I meant.
What you seam to say regardless of all the other pro and cons posts around, is that is was easier to create/access unique faces, features with V4 than with G2.
Am i correct?
C.
What you seam to say regardless of all the other pro and cons posts around, is that is was easier to create/access unique faces, features with V4 than with G2.
Am i correct?
C.
From out of the gate, I found it easier. The dial set faces that came with the M4 & V4 Morphs ++ were an easy to use feature, and it was nice that S4 also came with them. That concept wasn't carried through in Genesis, I was curious as to why - if it was something a specific team member did who is no longer with Daz? Instead it became a "you don't know what you're talking about, Genesis is awesome" thing. I've been using Daz figures for over 10 years now.I have seen the changes and improvements in the figures. I feel it's ok for me to ask a honest, polite question about the development and approach to the figures.
I have been using Daz figures and selling Daz content for more than a decade but with in and outs.
I have been away for a lot of time so i never had the chance to use Genesis. I came back directly at Genesis 2.
So you won't find me on the "Genesis is the best" wagon... ;)
if i compare V4 and Gen2F out of the box, with head morphs included, i tend to agree with you.
I found it easier to create unique characters (face features) with V4 than with Gen2, that's why one of the first products i created for her was the "Ethnics" set.
Still, the overall versatility of Genesis 2 doesn't stop to impress me everyday. It's my favorite character (ok i know, i haven't used Genesis... ;) )
C.
Genesis took a little getting used to, but I really didn't fully embrace it until I got the Generation X utility and could port in all of the Gen 4 morphs. That blew the doors off in terms of versatility. You could dial up a female character that was half V4, a quarter V5, some S4, some S5 and throw in a few male morphs to get a really unique character.
If you already have a lot of the Gen 4 morphs and don't have Generation X yet, I definitely recommend it.
I believe TimG is saying Victoria 4.2 simply had more morphs in its ++ package than Genesis Classic or Genesis New Kids on the Block have in their equivalent Head & Body packs. What others are trying to point out is that the sheer numbers are not an adequate way to measure the difference. Lets throw out the JCM argument, they are hidden by default so no one sees them. Full unique and custom head morph versus control dial (a 'fake' morph dial that sets other real morph dials) head morph, IMO the control morph heads should not be counted as they don't add any morphs/shapes. It is difficult (perhaps impossible) to compare the rest of the morphs between the different generation as they don't always have exact or similar named/matched morphs. I will say there are some specialty morphs in V4.2 that I miss in gen 5 & 6, like the navel height, but that seems to be the way DAZ is going. DAZ provides a good base and rely on PAs to build on them, those specialty morphs I miss and many more are available in add on packs.
Final point, gen 4 figure did not make a clear distinction between shaping morphs and posing morphs like gen 5 & 6 does with separate Pose Controls. Personal mini rant on shaping/posing morphs, Breast Cleavage should be a posing morph not a shaping morph.
Posing morphs are classified as posing if a person can make that movement on their own. I don't know of many females that can change their cleavage without some form of outside help. Thus it is a shaping morph and not a posing morph.
Sorry DAZ-jared but you are kind of making my point. I consider shaping morphs are for shaping the figure in their unclothed state, cleavage is the result of outside forces. Is it really any different than the Breasts Flatten or Breasts Hang Forward Pose Control morphs?
Honestly I don't have strong feelings either way, I was just pointing out the rationale behind it.
I think the logic behind it was that cleavage is something that you're most likely to use while setting up a figure and adjusting the fit of the clothing, whereas flatten and hang forward are conditionals that you're likely to want to vary while posing the figure.
Realistically, though, it would be best if they all appeared in both tabs. Of if DAZ would just give us automatic soft body collisions.
I second that motion...
I actually get where TimG is coming from. Gen 4's had a wider range of morphs that could be used as corrections as well as variety enhancements as sen fit. I remember that I was one of the people that raised concern over the loss of individual proportion morphs when Genesis first came out. S4's Elite morphs definitely had some nice contour dials that I haven't seen remastered in any major morph sets that I own for Genesis, not even Zev0's or DieTrying's sets! Unless they exist in Merchant Resource Kits, none of which I own, surprisingly, Then I've haven't seen anything like those since Gen 4.
As for the argument of movement morphs, I actually agree with jestmart. I mean, if the all the poses on the Posing category are movements made by natural movement, then Feet Shoe Fit should be considered a Shaping morph like Breast Cleavage.