Brows that actually follow the bone shape

alex86fire

Hi guys, I created a few female custom characters with different styles of morphs.

My biggest problem with them is find eyebrows that follow the actual bone structure. The painted eyebrows don't really do that and I haven't had much success with the fibermesh ones either.

It's sad to model with the morphs a certain brow shape and then see the ones applied on top disregard that shape.

I saw there are at least 3 products (not sure if there are more):

https://www.daz3d.com/ultimate-eyebrows-for-genesis-8-female

and 2 merchant ones:

https://www.daz3d.com/super-natural-brows-merchant-resource-for-genesis-8-and-3-female

https://www.daz3d.com/beautiful-brows-for-genesis-8-females

Which one do you recommend, or are there other ones or methods that I could achieve my goal?

I would also be willing to create my own if there are decent tutorials out there, anything to achieve my goal.

Gordig

If you're using 4.11 or later, I'd really recommend creating your own. Start with this thread: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/335676/strand-based-hair-mini-tutorial

alex86fire

Gordig said:

If you're using 4.11 or later, I'd really recommend creating your own. Start with this thread: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/335676/strand-based-hair-mini-tutorial

Thanks, I didn't even think about strand based hair. I'll give it a go.

nicstt

I use super natural brows; lots of morphs; adjust to fit to head shape is no issue.

alex86fire

nicstt said:

I use super natural brows; lots of morphs; adjust to fit to head shape is no issue.

The morphs are just for the brows themselves, right?

They don't modify the bones like the other brow morphs from shape changing packs.

Quixotry

The Super Natural Brows product has a lot of shaping morphs, which is nice. And yes, they only affect the eyebrows themselves, not the brow area of the character's face. Personally, I tend like the overall look of the Beautiful Brows products better, as the hairs look a bit finer and more sleek, but they don't have their own shaping dials. There are a lot of different shapes in the product, though, and many variations on each of the shapes, so it's not hard to find a set that fits the face you're working with. They're both really great products and I use them both a lot. 

Of course, if you're handy with a 3D modeling program like Blender or Zbrush, you can reshape either of those sets' eyebrows that way. 

outrider42

If you are creating your own morphs, remember to use the "adjust rigging to shape" feature. This will adjust the face bones to the geometry you made. This may be why the eyebrows don't correctly follow, if I am understanding your issue. Even if you are dialing in a bunch of store bought morphs you still may need to perform this task.

Super Brows only adjusts the hair, not the head shape. No such product exists. You need to adjust the brow from Genesis 8's head shaping options. If you need a morph pack, look up Rarestone's 200 Head Morphs pack. There are tons of very specific shaping options that no other pack offers, and some pertain to the forehead and brow.

nicstt

Quixotry said:

The Super Natural Brows product has a lot of shaping morphs, which is nice. And yes, they only affect the eyebrows themselves, not the brow area of the character's face. Personally, I tend like the overall look of the Beautiful Brows products better, as the hairs look a bit finer and more sleek, but they don't have their own shaping dials. There are a lot of different shapes in the product, though, and many variations on each of the shapes, so it's not hard to find a set that fits the face you're working with. They're both really great products and I use them both a lot. 

Of course, if you're handy with a 3D modeling program like Blender or Zbrush, you can reshape either of those sets' eyebrows that way. I

I made some additional morphs and extra material zones, so I can hide some of the hairs.

There is a fine morph included, this makes them thinner.

alex86fire

Quixotry said:

The Super Natural Brows product has a lot of shaping morphs, which is nice. And yes, they only affect the eyebrows themselves, not the brow area of the character's face. Personally, I tend like the overall look of the Beautiful Brows products better, as the hairs look a bit finer and more sleek, but they don't have their own shaping dials. There are a lot of different shapes in the product, though, and many variations on each of the shapes, so it's not hard to find a set that fits the face you're working with. They're both really great products and I use them both a lot. 

Of course, if you're handy with a 3D modeling program like Blender or Zbrush, you can reshape either of those sets' eyebrows that way. 

I am handy enough with Blender to be able to create my own morphs, all the brows are in my wishlist but I'll prioritize the Beautiful ones then. I don't know why but I had not thought I could make a morph for a brow. Maybe as a first step I'll just morph one the plenty of available ones from the characters I bought and when there is a proper discount I'll buy one or all of the ones mentioned above. Thank you for the feedback.

 

outrider42 said:

If you are creating your own morphs, remember to use the "adjust rigging to shape" feature. This will adjust the face bones to the geometry you made. This may be why the eyebrows don't correctly follow, if I am understanding your issue. Even if you are dialing in a bunch of store bought morphs you still may need to perform this task.

I had forgotten to adjust rigging to shape this time, thanks for reminding me. I created my morph properly, with adjust rigging and ERC freeze. I doesn't make that much of a difference unfortunately. I think this is because I have not modified the brows themselves that much. I believe some brow shapes are just created with a higher line than they should be (most of them in my opinion). I feel like almost none of the female brows have the outer corner where it should be, it is always higher.

outrider42 said:

Super Brows only adjusts the hair, not the head shape. No such product exists. You need to adjust the brow from Genesis 8's head shaping options. If you need a morph pack, look up Rarestone's 200 Head Morphs pack. There are tons of very specific shaping options that no other pack offers, and some pertain to the forehead and brow.

I am happy it does not adjust the head shape itself. I have already Rarestone's one, EJ Face, 200+, the DO one and the free one from SickleYield. I have more than enough morphs for the head shape, I need one affecting only the hair so that is perfect for me.

 

outrider42

So if the fiber brows you have used before all came as part of a character's package, those are pretty much made for that one character and probably not intended for other shapes. That's why they do not offer any options to adjust them. Each of the 3 brow products you listed will work better.

I do not have all 3 of the brow products, I have Super Natural Brows and I like it. It is not perfect, there are times when I wish there were some additional morphs. But it has a fair number of morphs with it. You can see all the morph options it has on its store page, and notice that it offers a lot more shaping options than the other two products. In fact, its not even close. So even though it is not perfect, it still offers more than the others, and I believe that you will appreciate those extra morphs.

You specifically mentioned moving the corners of the brow, Super Natural has a morph dial just for that. It has dials for moving the brows up and down, adjust the depth, rotate the full brow, or part of it. Looking at the other products I do not see any morphing options like this. That is why I bought Super Natural.

And if you are handy, you may be able to create some additional morphs once you see how the product works. You could dial a morph, and then use your modeler to do what you wish to do with it.

SpottedKitty

outrider42 said:

So if the fiber brows you have used before all came as part of a character's package, those are pretty much made for that one character and probably not intended for other shapes. That's why they do not offer any options to adjust them.

I dunno, I have fibermesh brows that came with several G8F and G8M characters, and they've always looked OK on other head shapes. Remember that anything made to fit specifically to a Genesis character must by definition first be made to fit the Genesis figure the character is based on, with the character head morph added. Any other head shapes that you apply the brows to will be added to the brows as an autogenerated fit morph.

Exactly the same thing happens with clothes; they're not shaped to fit a Genesis-based character, they're shaped to fit a Genesis figure.

outrider42

Most of the brows will indeed fit most head shapes. But such brows do not have additional shaping options. So if you wish to adjust them, like how the op mentioned the outer corners, you have few if any options to do so. That is what I meant. The op is saying they don't like how the brows fit on their characters.

alex86fire

Ok, So I tried my hand at a Morph on some brows (They happened to be Kimm's brows).

I lowered the corner in Blender.

This is how they looked at import:

This is how they looked after I modified them:

I successfully imported the morph into Daz but unfortunately, instead of just lowering the corner, it actually keeps the corner in place and raises the rest of the brow:

 

Daz before morph:

Daz after morph:

For more clarity, on how I expected the brows to look with the morph, I imported them as a normal obj.

Here are both brows, normal and the imported one in white (how I expcted the shape to look after morph).

Any advice on how I can get this to work properly?

 

DaremoK3

alex86fire :

This is just a guess, but as someone who has been doing this for decades, on the surface it appears you have compounding morphs - meaning, it appears you have created your morph on an already morphed brow (to a character shape - not on base figure).

If this is true, try this;  Select the brows, and then dial out the (character named) auto-follow morph created by the character shape (dial to zero [0.00])  --  If I am correct in my assumption, this should give you 1:1 corrected morph you created in Blender (brow not rising up).

If I am wrong, then please disreagard as you have an altogether different issue.

Best practice (arguable) is to always create your morphs against base figures, and not shaped characters, but Daz Studio does include import variables to help with corrections, or use various techniques to adjust/fix them after import.

I have no time to write any more mini-tuts regarding all this, so I will let others here move you along further if it is needed.

First try what I suggested  --  If it doesn't help, please say so.  Then, others could troubleshoot further any issues you are having regarding this...

alex86fire

DaremoK3 said:

alex86fire :

This is just a guess, but as someone who has been doing this for decades, on the surface it appears you have compounding morphs - meaning, it appears you have created your morph on an already morphed brow (to a character shape - not on base figure).

If this is true, try this;  Select the brows, and then dial out the (character named) auto-follow morph created by the character shape (dial to zero [0.00])  --  If I am correct in my assumption, this should give you 1:1 corrected morph you created in Blender (brow not rising up).

If I am wrong, then please disreagard as you have an altogether different issue.

Best practice (arguable) is to always create your morphs against base figures, and not shaped characters, but Daz Studio does include import variables to help with corrections, or use various techniques to adjust/fix them after import.

I have no time to write any more mini-tuts regarding all this, so I will let others here move you along further if it is needed.

First try what I suggested  --  If it doesn't help, please say so.  Then, others could troubleshoot further any issues you are having regarding this...

It might be the problem (I wanted to create the morph on the adapted shape just so that I knew where to lower the brows.

I could not find the auto-follow morph to zero it down so I could not check your suggestion.

I would appreciate someone guiding me how to import my morph on this figure already, in the meantime I will also try a morph on the base figure to see how it behaves.

SpottedKitty

alex86fire said:

I could not find the auto-follow morph to zero it down so I could not check your suggestion.

Auto-follow morphs are usually hidden. Pull down the Options menu on the Parameter tab and check "Show Hidden". You should now see a new section in the Parameter tab list with all the morphs applied to the Genesis head inside it.

alex86fire

SpottedKitty said:

alex86fire said:

I could not find the auto-follow morph to zero it down so I could not check your suggestion.

Auto-follow morphs are usually hidden. Pull down the Options menu on the Parameter tab and check "Show Hidden". You should now see a new section in the Parameter tab list with all the morphs applied to the Genesis head inside it.

Thanks, found it!

I zeroed it and it did change the shape a little, but it is still raised.

I think I needed to zero the shape before the export, it makes sense that now it would be doubled.

I tried the morph on the base shape and it worked perfectly. Problem is that they don't really fit the head shape (go a little into the head).

I think I maybe need to export the base shape brows but model them in Blender on the final shape. (and then after reimport zero the autofollow).

I'll give that a try next and let you know how it worked.

Second option would be to create a few more morphs, so that together they make a universal form fitting kit.

CHWT

outrider42 said:

So if the fiber brows you have used before all came as part of a character's package, those are pretty much made for that one character and probably not intended for other shapes. That's why they do not offer any options to adjust them. Each of the 3 brow products you listed will work better.

I do not have all 3 of the brow products, I have Super Natural Brows and I like it. It is not perfect, there are times when I wish there were some additional morphs. But it has a fair number of morphs with it. You can see all the morph options it has on its store page, and notice that it offers a lot more shaping options than the other two products. In fact, its not even close. So even though it is not perfect, it still offers more than the others, and I believe that you will appreciate those extra morphs.

You specifically mentioned moving the corners of the brow, Super Natural has a morph dial just for that. It has dials for moving the brows up and down, adjust the depth, rotate the full brow, or part of it. Looking at the other products I do not see any morphing options like this. That is why I bought Super Natural.

And if you are handy, you may be able to create some additional morphs once you see how the product works. You could dial a morph, and then use your modeler to do what you wish to do with it.

outrider42 said:

So if the fiber brows you have used before all came as part of a character's package, those are pretty much made for that one character and probably not intended for other shapes. That's why they do not offer any options to adjust them. Each of the 3 brow products you listed will work better.

I do not have all 3 of the brow products, I have Super Natural Brows and I like it. It is not perfect, there are times when I wish there were some additional morphs. But it has a fair number of morphs with it. You can see all the morph options it has on its store page, and notice that it offers a lot more shaping options than the other two products. In fact, its not even close. So even though it is not perfect, it still offers more than the others, and I believe that you will appreciate those extra morphs.

You specifically mentioned moving the corners of the brow, Super Natural has a morph dial just for that. It has dials for moving the brows up and down, adjust the depth, rotate the full brow, or part of it. Looking at the other products I do not see any morphing options like this. That is why I bought Super Natural.

And if you are handy, you may be able to create some additional morphs once you see how the product works. You could dial a morph, and then use your modeler to do what you wish to do with it.

Hi outrider42, I can tell that you really enjoy using Super Natural Brows. On the product page of Super Natural Brows it says "You may export your morphed brows as an obj and use the transfer utility to create wearable brows for your characters". Could you please tell me how to do so after I have morphed the brows to fit my character the best I could? Thank you very much.

DaremoK3

@ alex86fire :

Sorry about that, I should have mentioned that the auto-follow morphs were in the 'hidden' category (thank you, SpottedKitty!).

Also, I mispoke  --  I meant to tell you that you needed to set your auto-follow morph's 'min' parameter (Parameter Settings) to -1.00 (-100%), and dial your AF morph to -1 to counteract the compounded morph.

Going to just zero (0.0 / 0%) only negates half the compound morph  --  Hence, why it was still raised.

Did you get your brows the way you wanted them?

Did you create a universal fitting kit?

I created mine a long time ago for Genesis 1  --  A universal brow with hundreds of correction morphs that works for NPR renders, and serves as a base for fibermesh brows.

I hope you were able to achieve something like this with Blender for your brows.

* I know this thread is old, but even if you are beyond this help, it might serve another struggling with this if they find this thread...