Can someone give me complete clairification on Daz Rig usage?

Room101Studios

Okay, so it's my understanding that it's illegal to use any Daz Character Rigs for Shop Products.

 

So how exactly does one create conforming clothing for say Genesis 8, if you're not allowed to use the Daz Rig? I ask, 'cos it would be very simple for me to write a script that zero points Locators to the Genesis 8 skeleton in Maya, import them into Daz and then recreate the Skeleton, by hand using the Figure Setup.

Would THAT be considered "legal?"

 

Richard Haseltine

It is permissible to use the base-figure rig, usually via the Transfer Utility, for add-ons such as clothes or hair. It is not permissible to take a figure's rig and use it to rig a conmpeting figure (for distribution, you can do it for your oen in-house use) whether that's base figure to a new base figure or wardrobe/hair to a new warrdrobe/hair item. This is covered in the EUAL, which should be your first port of call with such questions https://www.daz3d.com/eula

Room101Studios

Richard Haseltine said:

It is permissible to use the base-figure rig, usually via the Transfer Utility, for add-ons such as clothes or hair. It is not permissible to take a figure's rig and use it to rig a conmpeting figure (for distribution, you can do it for your oen in-house use) whether that's base figure to a new base figure or wardrobe/hair to a new warrdrobe/hair item. This is covered in the EUAL, which should be your first port of call with such questions https://www.daz3d.com/eula

Gotcha. I just got some confusion on certain store items, like the Cyborg Generation 8. It has a G8 compatible rig and the only way I figured it was made was by either using the original rig or creating one using the aforementioned pipeline.

I'm a rigger and animator, by trade and I mostly work in the game industry. I was comissioned to rig some Daz models for a Unity project and that led me back here. I haven't even looked at Daz stuff in over a decade. A lot has changed in that time and they've got some professional quality models now.

I want to make a generic rig that I can use over and over again, without violating the EULA. It would be simple to make my own in Maya, but it won't transfer to Daz and since I want to make a duplicate of the G8 series skeleton to use over and over again, I wanted to make sure I could do it, without violating TOS/EULA.

Richard Haseltine

Room101Studios said:

Richard Haseltine said:

It is permissible to use the base-figure rig, usually via the Transfer Utility, for add-ons such as clothes or hair. It is not permissible to take a figure's rig and use it to rig a conmpeting figure (for distribution, you can do it for your oen in-house use) whether that's base figure to a new base figure or wardrobe/hair to a new warrdrobe/hair item. This is covered in the EUAL, which should be your first port of call with such questions https://www.daz3d.com/eula

Gotcha. I just got some confusion on certain store items, like the Cyborg Generation 8. It has a G8 compatible rig and the only way I figured it was made was by either using the original rig or creating one using the aforementioned pipeline.

I'm a rigger and animator, by trade and I mostly work in the game industry. I was comissioned to rig some Daz models for a Unity project and that led me back here. I haven't even looked at Daz stuff in over a decade. A lot has changed in that time and they've got some professional quality models now.

I want to make a generic rig that I can use over and over again, without violating the EULA. It would be simple to make my own in Maya, but it won't transfer to Daz and since I want to make a duplicate of the G8 series skeleton to use over and over again, I wanted to make sure I could do it, without violating TOS/EULA.

For game assets (to be used in a specific game) I think you could use the rig, since it's using content (for which you have purchased a license) to create content for the game, even if you are using only one aspect. That would not actually differ from doing the same to create renders or animations - it's making changes/additons/subtractions as steps to a final, self-contained goal. It's in creating content that is to be distributed as content for further use (in creating images, games, etc.) that you are limited.

Room101Studios

Well, I'm not making anything game specific. I'm just doing rigging for faces, as there's no script or function to rig faces for G8 models. I'm considering jumping into Product Production, but I'll want to create new models, not morphs, so that would require my having a Skeleton to use.

WendyLuvsCatz

this can get so confusing when it comes to the legality of stuff like bvh files

not meaning to derail the thread

but

I always import any bvh animations I make and save as an animated duf pose or pz2 because of this

as anyone can take a bvh and rig something else to it in other software so presumably a DAZ figure bvh also has distribution restrictions 

Padone

The G8 daz rig itself is trivial so I don't understand how they can claim that rig for exclusive use. It is just a fk rig with weighted bones, there are such rigs everywhere especially in games. The G3-G8 twist bones are not a daz exclusive either, that's a common setup. I mean if anyone would export the G8 rig and fit it to sell his own character I really have no idea how daz could claim that rig. Do you mean nobody can do twist bones anymore because of the daz eula ? c'mon ..

I mean by the copyright law an asset must have some kind of originality to be copyrighted, I can't copyright something that's already common use. Otherwise I'd copyright breathing air so I'd go millionaire.

Richard Haseltine

Padone said:

The G8 daz rig itself is trivial so I don't understand how they can claim that rig for exclusive use. It is just a fk rig with weighted bones, there are such rigs everywhere especially in games. The G3-G8 twist bones are not a daz exclusive either, that's a common setup. I mean if anyone would export the G8 rig and fit it to sell his own character I really have no idea how daz could claim that rig. Do you mean nobody can do twist bones anymore because of the daz eula ? c'mon ..

I mean by the copyright law an asset must have some kind of originality to be copyrighted, I can't copyright something that's already common use. Otherwise I'd copyright breathing air so I'd go millionaire.

It's that particular rig, the placement of bones and the weights, that belongs to Daz - make your own rig from scratch and its yours (software licenses pemitting, of course).

TheKD

Reminds me of the times when people in the forums would tell people asking about making clothes for sale would be told that using shrinkwrap tools in modeling programs to fit clothes was a copyright violations lol

Richard Haseltine

TheKD said:

Reminds me of the times when people in the forums would tell people asking about making clothes for sale would that using shrinkwrap tools in modeling programs to fit clothes was a copyright violations lol

It was. Using someone else's work as a short cut for doing it yourself is always wrong, and usaully illegal, unless a license permitting it is granted.

Room101Studios

Richard Haseltine said:

Padone said:

The G8 daz rig itself is trivial so I don't understand how they can claim that rig for exclusive use. It is just a fk rig with weighted bones, there are such rigs everywhere especially in games. The G3-G8 twist bones are not a daz exclusive either, that's a common setup. I mean if anyone would export the G8 rig and fit it to sell his own character I really have no idea how daz could claim that rig. Do you mean nobody can do twist bones anymore because of the daz eula ? c'mon ..

I mean by the copyright law an asset must have some kind of originality to be copyrighted, I can't copyright something that's already common use. Otherwise I'd copyright breathing air so I'd go millionaire.

It's that particular rig, the placement of bones and the weights, that belongs to Daz - make your own rig from scratch and its yours (software licenses pemitting, of course).

This right here, is the connundrum. I could make an exact copy of the G8 Rig. It's not that hard (it would be faster if I could use Maya, instead of Daz Studios archaic rigging tools, but I digress.) The problem is, I would be placing the bones in the exact spot Daz does, using locators and with the same naming scheme to keep it G8 compatible. There would be no weight maps though, just the skeleton. If that falls under their licensing, I'd release the Rig as a .duf file, under GPL, so anyone could use it to create content.

TheKD

Richard Haseltine said:

TheKD said:

Reminds me of the times when people in the forums would tell people asking about making clothes for sale would that using shrinkwrap tools in modeling programs to fit clothes was a copyright violations lol

It was. Using someone else's work as a short cut for doing it yourself is always wrong, and usaully illegal, unless a license permitting it is granted.

You tell me how it is different to use a tool that will snap points of a mesh you create to the figure shape normals for you, and snapping each point manually, other than wasting your time? Next you gonna tell me that turning on snapping to normals in blender is also illegal too? 

Richard Haseltine

TheKD said:

Richard Haseltine said:

TheKD said:

Reminds me of the times when people in the forums would tell people asking about making clothes for sale would that using shrinkwrap tools in modeling programs to fit clothes was a copyright violations lol

It was. Using someone else's work as a short cut for doing it yourself is always wrong, and usaully illegal, unless a license permitting it is granted.

You tell me how it is different to use a tool that will snap points of a mesh you create to the figure shape normals for you, and snapping each point manually, other than wasting your time? Next you gonna tell me that turning on snapping to normals in blender is also illegal too? 

If you are using another mesh as a guide (which snapping implies) why would you expect to be allowed to do that freely?

Room101Studios said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Padone said:

The G8 daz rig itself is trivial so I don't understand how they can claim that rig for exclusive use. It is just a fk rig with weighted bones, there are such rigs everywhere especially in games. The G3-G8 twist bones are not a daz exclusive either, that's a common setup. I mean if anyone would export the G8 rig and fit it to sell his own character I really have no idea how daz could claim that rig. Do you mean nobody can do twist bones anymore because of the daz eula ? c'mon ..

I mean by the copyright law an asset must have some kind of originality to be copyrighted, I can't copyright something that's already common use. Otherwise I'd copyright breathing air so I'd go millionaire.

It's that particular rig, the placement of bones and the weights, that belongs to Daz - make your own rig from scratch and its yours (software licenses pemitting, of course).

This right here, is the connundrum. I could make an exact copy of the G8 Rig. It's not that hard (it would be faster if I could use Maya, instead of Daz Studios archaic rigging tools, but I digress.) The problem is, I would be placing the bones in the exact spot Daz does, using locators and with the same naming scheme to keep it G8 compatible. There would be no weight maps though, just the skeleton. If that falls under their licensing, I'd release the Rig as a .duf file, under GPL, so anyone could use it to create content.

If you want to exactly reproduce the Daz skeleton, however you do so, then you need to follow the license. If you want to create a new skeleton of your own by freely placing the bones then it won't derive from the daz skeelton and you can do with it as you wish.

Room101Studios

"If you are using another mesh as a guide (which snapping implies) why would you expect to be allowed to do that freely?"

 

 

Okay, that makes absolutely *NO* sense. How is one supposed to create content for a figure, WITHOUT using it as a base? There's no guarantee that a clothing set would fit a particular model, without using it "as a guide." That's like trying to build a fuel injector for an automobile, without having the technical specs of the vehicle in question.

Also, in American Copyright Law, there is a term called "fair use."

Fair use is a doctrine in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair use is one of the limitations to copyright intended to balance the interests of copyright holders with the public interest in the wider distribution and use of creative works by allowing as a defense to copyright infringement claims certain limited uses that might otherwise be considered infringement.

I could, for all rights, use their rig in a commercial product, as it's not in direct competition with their own products.What I've been seeing is a repeated use of "you can't use our rigs -it's copyright violation".

I've dealt with this before, it's a pain in the ass and if it's TOO much of a pain in the ass, I won't bother, which costs them money, costs me money and provides LESS content for end users.

I'm trying to find common ground. If I have to go through the trouble of making my own rig that would be compatible with G8, then it's MY work, regardless of if it's based or a derivative of their work, thanks to reverse engineering clause under fair use. If it's MY work, then I'm well within my right to release it, for free, under GPL.

jestmart

Fair use is extremely limited in scope and does not apply here.

TheKD

Now vertex snapping is illegal lol. Guess all the vendors using MD are selling illegal clothes, becaus MD uses shrinkwrap + physics to fit garments vertex to figure normals. 

Room101Studios

jestmart said:

Fair use is extremely limited in scope and does not apply here.

Wrong. There's nothing in the EULA that I've read that specifically states that it's copyright violation to use a Daz character rig for a commercial product. All I've seen is a bunch of internet lawyers saying "it's copyright violation!" over and over again. I came to the forums in the hopes that a Daz employee would frequent it. Clearly, I was wrong.

In regards to 3D content the EULA states as follows:

Three Dimensional Works. DAZ wishes to encourage the expansion of the catalog of Content available to its users. Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:
 

• any such derived or additional three-dimensional works are designed to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store either by (i) requiring the use of such Content to function, or (ii) allowing only limited function when not used in conjunction with Content from the online DAZ store; and
• upon receipt of a written request from DAZ, User will immediately cease any and all distribution of the derived or additional three-dimensional works User has created from the Content, if DAZ has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such additional or derived work is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such additional or derived work fails to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store as described above.

It's that second bullet that's a problem. If I create a new skeleton rig, on my own, that is a clone of the G8 skeleton (which it would have to be, to use poses, clothes, etc) Daz can enter "cease and desist" at their leisure. Creating a my own compatible rig for G8 falls under the first bullet, but at any time Daz can decide it's a "violation." I have a problem with that.

Either they let me use their rigs for commercial products or I can use my own, based of theirs to be compatible with their content, without threat of litigation. If I have to create my own rig, to create my own content for purchase, then I'm free to do whatever I want with my said work.

wolf359

You won't win this argument.. Not here:-)

WendyLuvsCatz

I always thought as long as it requires you to use it on the specific DAZ figure making products for it such as clothing OK.

You cannot use a DAZ figure to make something for a non DAZ figure to sell.

This is why clone shapes cannot be sold outside  the DAZ store.

Richard Haseltine

Room101Studios said:

jestmart said:

Fair use is extremely limited in scope and does not apply here.

Wrong. There's nothing in the EULA that I've read that specifically states that it's copyright violation to use a Daz character rig for a commercial product. All I've seen is a bunch of internet lawyers saying "it's copyright violation!" over and over again. I came to the forums in the hopes that a Daz employee would frequent it. Clearly, I was wrong.

In regards to 3D content the EULA states as follows:

Three Dimensional Works. DAZ wishes to encourage the expansion of the catalog of Content available to its users. Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works provided that:
 

• any such derived or additional three-dimensional works are designed to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store either by (i) requiring the use of such Content to function, or (ii) allowing only limited function when not used in conjunction with Content from the online DAZ store; and
• upon receipt of a written request from DAZ, User will immediately cease any and all distribution of the derived or additional three-dimensional works User has created from the Content, if DAZ has determined, in its sole discretion, that (i) such additional or derived work is substantially similar to or is a clone of existing Content; or (ii) such additional or derived work fails to require or encourage the use of Content available through the online DAZ store as described above.

It's that second bullet that's a problem. If I create a new skeleton rig, on my own, that is a clone of the G8 skeleton (which it would have to be, to use poses, clothes, etc) Daz can enter "cease and desist" at their leisure. Creating a my own compatible rig for G8 falls under the first bullet, but at any time Daz can decide it's a "violation." I have a problem with that.

Either they let me use their rigs for commercial products or I can use my own, based of theirs to be compatible with their content, without threat of litigation. If I have to create my own rig, to create my own content for purchase, then I'm free to do whatever I want with my said work.

You are getting separate thngs muddled. First, this is a matter of what the license allows - the license is a relaxation of the absolute laws of copyright allowing you to do stuff with the content (otherwse you would not be able to do anything with it other than look at it). You are also blurring the discussion, at one point talking about add-ons (allowed) and at another about independent figures (not allowed by the license, though you could always approach Daz if you thought they might want to allow it in a particular case).

TheKD said:

Now vertex snapping is illegal lol. Guess all the vendors using MD are selling illegal clothes, becaus MD uses shrinkwrap + physics to fit garments vertex to figure normals. 

Shrink wrapping was prohibited, there are no specific methodological prohibibitions in the current license as long as the content is an add-on and not a potentially competing product.

Padone

Room101Studios said:

I was comissioned to rig some Daz models for a Unity project and that led me back here.

At this point I believe it's better you ask the daz support. As I understand it, it should be possible to edit an exported daz rig to fit the unity game, provided you own the interactive license. The same as you can edit the mesh and the materials to fit the game. That makes sense and I can't see anything out of the fair use domain. Otherwise the interactive license is mostly unusable if it doesn't include derivative works. Indeed I'm not sure at all what @Richard is talking about.

Please let us know what the daz support replies.

 

EDIT. Also afaik if the unity project is a real-time animation, that is, you sell a movie, then the interactive license is not needed anyway. You need it only if you sell a game. That provided that the standard license includes derivative works as well. Otherwise even the standard license is unusable. That is, you can't edit the assets period. That for a 3d authoring program would be absurd, what are the editing tools for then ?

For example posing a character IS a derivative work, and anyone does it. Kitbashing is also a derivative work and anyone does it.

zmk

Intellectual property laws are no joke. You absolutely can't take a Daz genesis rig (their intellectual property), export it out of their proprietary software and use it in your pipeline for commercial purposes (whatever the end product is).

It's just standard IP protections and laws in place, nothing uncommon or weird. You need explicit permission if you want to use someone's IP in your own works.

PS: The interactive license allows you to use the specific content piece you've bought outside of the software, but forbids re-selling or distributing the files. The free genesis rigs don't have any kind of 'interactive license' far as I'm aware?

EDIT: Apparently there are. I just pitched in a comment on general IP law guidelines, it appears there's no problem about getting an interactive license for the basic rigs, so everyone's dandy.

Richard Haseltine

zmk said:

Intellectual property laws are no joke. You absolutely can't take a Daz genesis rig (their intellectual property), export it out of their proprietary software and use it in your pipeline for commercial purposes (whatever the end product is).

It's just standard IP protections and laws in place, nothing uncommon or weird. You need explicit permission if you want to use someone's IP in your own works.

PS: The interactive license allows you to use the specific content piece you've bought outside of the software, but forbids re-selling or distributing the files. The free genesis rigs don't have any kind of 'interactive license' far as I'm aware?

There are store pages for the Genesis # Starter Essentials packs which allow people to purchase Interactive Licenses for them.

Room101Studios

There's is *NO* way you could make clothing content *WITHOUT* using their rigs. It's impossible. The bones have to be named the same, in order to work. The bones have to be positioned in the exact, same spot, to keep from getting tears, poke through and to work properly.

I have worked in the game industry for 20 years. When you make clothing and props to put on character, you bind them to the same rig you use for the character. You SCULPT your clothing and props off the original base model. It would be a complete waste of time and resources to try and create clothing and props without using a base model, which in this case, would be a Daz model.

Yeah, this is too much of a pain in the ass to deal with and you people are ridiculous.

Richard Haseltine

Room101Studios said:

There's is *NO* way you could make clothing content *WITHOUT* using their rigs. It's impossible. The bones have to be named the same, in order to work. The bones have to be positioned in the exact, same spot, to keep from getting tears, poke through and to work properly.

Not in dispute.

Room101Studios said:

I have worked in the game industry for 20 years. When you make clothing and props to put on character, you bind them to the same rig you use for the character. You SCULPT your clothing and props off the original base model. It would be a complete waste of time and resources to try and create clothing and props without using a base model, which in this case, would be a Daz model.

Again, not being disputed.

Room101Studios said:

Yeah, this is too much of a pain in the ass to deal with and you people are ridiculous.

But if you are making clothes for use on the Daz figures we have already said that that is allowed under the EULA. If it's for a game then you need the Interactive license for the base figure, but you can then make clothing etc. for it as part of the same game (as lng as it isn't to be purchased through micro-transactions).

The problem is that earlier you were talking about indpendent figures, not add-ons, and that isn't allowed. You need to make sure your intentions and questions are clear - if you want to make clothing etc. for Daz figures the EULA allows it, and allows t to be sold/shared. If you want to clothe your Daz-derived figures in game, as part of the base game, the Interactive License allows it.

zmk

Room101Studios said:

There's is *NO* way you could make clothing content *WITHOUT* using their rigs. It's impossible. The bones have to be named the same, in order to work. The bones have to be positioned in the exact, same spot, to keep from getting tears, poke through and to work properly.

I have worked in the game industry for 20 years. When you make clothing and props to put on character, you bind them to the same rig you use for the character. You SCULPT your clothing and props off the original base model. It would be a complete waste of time and resources to try and create clothing and props without using a base model, which in this case, would be a Daz model.

Yeah, this is too much of a pain in the ass to deal with and you people are ridiculous.

People actually took the time to dig in and find an answer for you, and you don't even have the reading comprehension to understand it. It's been already answered that you can get interactive licenses and use them inside a game. Instead of saying thanks you take a dump on everyone.

PS: Nobody has sculpted or re-used a basemesh for clothing in film/games pipelines for over half a decade.