Lace shaders and edging

marble

I sometimes use lace shaders on cloth but I find I am restricted by the fact that many clothes are created without hems or edging (just a sharp cut). This lack of a proper edge might go unnoticed on a solid cloth texture but not on a semi-transparent or, more especially, lace cloth. Real clothes do not have lace without edging so my question is: what is the easiest way to add edging to the cloth so that it doesn't look like someone took a pair of scissors to it?

L'Adair

Good question. One possible workaround would be to create a Geoshell, turn off any unaffected material zones, and then use a transmap to apply an edging. I can expand on that, if you need me to.

marble

L'Adair said:

Good question. One possible workaround would be to create a Geoshell, turn off any unaffected material zones, and then use a transmap to apply an edging. I can expand on that, if you need me to.

Thanks L'Adair. I am not sure why a geoshell is needed - can't your suggestion work on the original object? Oh, hang on, I think I get it ... the transmap would hide everything but the edging, right? I'm not too familiar with geoshells but do they follow the pose of the original? For example, if I simulated a dForce dress, would the geoshell simulate too? Sorry for the dumb questions - I must sound like a noob instead of someone who's been playing with DAZ Studio for many years.

I had imagined that I would need to use the geometry editor to creat new material zones but the last time I tried that my results were not very impressive.

L'Adair

I have not tested how a geoshell works with a simulated object. I know it follows the original object's poses and such.

The geometry editor can only work with the existing mesh. So if you want to create a material zone of a small strip along the edge, the polygons for that strip must already be modeled in. The tool is great for many things, but it can't split polygons.

I think you already figured out why I suggested a geoshell. You could use LIE to add the decorative edge to the Opacity channel of the material zone, as long as Horizontal Tile and Vertical Tile are both 1.0. As soon as you change that, increasing the tiling for a smaller lace pattern for example, using LIE isn't going to work. (That I know of, anyway.) But using the Geoshell, your Opacity map can be at 1 and 1 regardless of the tiling of the lace. You can even use a different color, if you want to. (Black lace with red metal flaked trim, etc.)

marble

Thanks again - for explaining further. I hope that the vendors might get the message and make hems and soft edges rather than the hard cuts we are used to. Marvelous Designer has simple methods for doing so and I think that most vendors now use MD to make clothes.

L'Adair

Your're welcome.

And I agree. It would be really nice if the mesh allowed for separate edging.

Daventaki

If I remember correctly I think the geoshell does follow the simulation.  Seems like it was in a thread about hair and adding the geoshell to make the hair appear thicker. It maybe the thread about dforcing older hair?  Not sure, ill have to see if I can find it.

marble

Daventaki said:

If I remember correctly I think the geoshell does follow the simulation.  Seems like it was in a thread about hair and adding the geoshell to make the hair appear thicker. It maybe the thread about dforcing older hair?  Not sure, ill have to see if I can find it.

Thanks - I should be able to test it but I'm not at that PC right now.

WendyLuvsCatz

other way would be to use LIE and have a texture overlay that outlines the seams and hems

if you have a UV template it is as easy as edging it in an image editor

esha

The problem with lace is that it does NOT work well with thick edges. If you apply cutout opacity to an edge with thickness, you'll see the thickness only in those areas where the solid parts touch the edge. In the other areas the cutout will do exactly that - it will cut out the transparent parts, cutting away the edge. It will not generate additional geometry to close the holes.

And to be fair, except for thick crocheting, lace usually is very thin, thinner than the average fabric.

marble

esha said:

The problem with lace is that it does NOT work well with thick edges. If you apply cutout opacity to an edge with thickness, you'll see the thickness only in those areas where the solid parts touch the edge. In the other areas the cutout will do exactly that - it will cut out the transparent parts, cutting away the edge. It will not generate additional geometry to close the holes.

And to be fair, except for thick crocheting, lace usually is very thin, thinner than the average fabric.

Yet some vendors do include lace materials with edges, hems, etc. There's stocking tops and lingerie which would look awful without a band of solid material along the edge.

esha

Ok, perhaps we're talking about different things here... do you have an example image for the type of lace you mean?

L'Adair

WendyLuvsCatz said:

other way would be to use LIE and have a texture overlay that outlines the seams and hems

if you have a UV template it is as easy as edging it in an image editor

As I mentioned earlier:

L'Adair said:

[snip] You could use LIE to add the decorative edge to the Opacity channel of the material zone, as long as Horizontal Tile and Vertical Tile are both 1.0. As soon as you change that, increasing the tiling for a smaller lace pattern for example, using LIE isn't going to work.

 

esha said:

Ok, perhaps we're talking about different things here... do you have an example image for the type of lace you mean?

IRL, I might create a rolled hem, or add a bit of of trim. I would never leave the edge unfinished, (with the exception of plain netting, like tulle.)

I recently rendered the image below. If I had sewn this outfit myself, I'd either have rolled the hem of the overskirt, or applied a very thin trim.

(Image links to larger image and opens in a new window.)

ETA: If the render hadn't been for a review, I would have tried the Geoshell trick to add an edge.

WendyLuvsCatz

the forum does not always show all the posts right away, I missed that other post, there was only the geoshell one when I posted

I was not ignoring anyone, I think its a cloudflare thing

been caught before

marble

esha said:

Ok, perhaps we're talking about different things here... do you have an example image for the type of lace you mean?

This product has a few promo images and all have either edging or the lace edge hidden (I assume because a lace garment without edging would look unfinished - not a good promo picture). I realise that these are shaders and not garments so the shaders have been applied to garments with edge material zones.

https://www.daz3d.com/iray-lace-shaders-2

Daventaki

I was curious about this so I decided to give it a try with the geoshell.  Mind you I have never used my own geoshells before and this was a really quick throw together using Agate Noir coat, it has no geometry seams on the coat.

I added the geoshell and turned off all but the bottom of the coat you can see where it stops.  On the geoshell surfaces all I did was add the image to the opacity strength at 100%.  I see there is some color peeking through on the seam could be my texture image is not 100% white in that area.

Click for larger views.

You can also see along the vertical edge the geoshell doesnt cover completely?  I might need to expand the seam on my geoshell further.  I turned the displacement off on the coat but it seems like there are some weird geometry going on here maybe I missed something in the surfaces thats causing it.

nicstt

This lack of depth is something that irritates me enough that I pass on many items.

Haruchai

Would creating a seperate material zone help?

I used this video tutorial to successfully do my first one on a piece of clothing recently.

esha

I would never leave the edge unfinished, (with the exception of plain netting, like tulle.)

Ok, I was mainly thinking of tulle-based lace.

"Lace" means, for me personally, irregular edges like shown here: https://www.laceplace.com/white-edge-lace-trim-3-wt0300e04/

or here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lace_Its_Origin_and_History_Real_Mechlin.png

This type doesn't work with solid edges.

 

I agree that edging in general is a problem, especially with dForce items. It's my pet peeve that NVIDIA still hasn't implemented micro-polygon displacement for Iray.
My dForce items do have edges with some thickness (except the very first items) but they are not always a separate material zone. This is where Haruchai's video tipp will come in useful :)
I'll try and set up the edges as a separate surface in my future products :)

 

* Edited for grammar corrections *

zmk

esha said:

 

<..> It's my pet peeve that NVIDIA still hasn't implemented micro-polygon displacement for Iray.
<..>

 

* Edited for grammar corrections *

Displacement and tessellation work alright. For close-ups, couldn't you get away with layering random noises in shaders for extra microdetail displacement (and an additional bump layer on top of all of it)? Nobody could tell a difference that it's not "real micropolygon displacement".

EDITed for better reading clarity in bold

marble

esha said:

I would never leave the edge unfinished, (with the exception of plain netting, like tulle.)

Ok, I was mainly thinking of tulle-based lace.

"Lace" means, for me personally, irregular edges like shown here: https://www.laceplace.com/white-edge-lace-trim-3-wt0300e04/

or here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lace_Its_Origin_and_History_Real_Mechlin.png

This type doesn't work with solid edges.

 

I agree that edging in general is a problem, especially with dForce items. It's my pet peeve that NVIDIA still hasn't implemented micro-polygon displacement for Iray.
My dForce items do have edges with some thickness (except the very first items) but they are not always a separate material zone. This is where Haruchai's video tipp will come in useful :)
I'll try and set up the edges as a separate surface in my future products :)

 

* Edited for grammar corrections *

While some of this discussion is a little over my head because I don't model, I really appreciate that someone who actually makes clothes for the store is contributing. We all benefit when the PAs not only take part but take suggestions.

esha

zmk said:

Displacement and tessellation work alright. For close-ups, couldn't you get away with layering random noises in shaders for extra microdetail displacement (and a bump layer)? Nobody could tell a difference that it's not "real micropolygon displacement".

Bump can't add thickness. It can add a shadow effect but the edge will still be flat. And by "micropolygon displacement" I mean the sort of displacement that is available in 3Delight but not in Iray. In Iray you need tesselation to make displacement work, and you need to go quite high to make it look good. Higher than QA usually allows (the limit is around level 3). And you can't just tesselate one surface, for example the rim, because in the background DS will always subdivide the entire item. We PAs try to avoid things that will overtax an average system, so we're stuck with certain compromises. We are aware that the situation is not ideal but currently we have to live with it.

Which leads us back to my pet peeve about NVIDIA LOL

Jan_Scrapper

Daventaki said:

I was curious about this so I decided to give it a try with the geoshell.  Mind you I have never used my own geoshells before and this was a really quick throw together using Agate Noir coat, it has no geometry seams on the coat.

I added the geoshell and turned off all but the bottom of the coat you can see where it stops.  On the geoshell surfaces all I did was add the image to the opacity strength at 100%.  I see there is some color peeking through on the seam could be my texture image is not 100% white in that area.

Click for larger views.

You can also see along the vertical edge the geoshell doesnt cover completely?  I might need to expand the seam on my geoshell further.  I turned the displacement off on the coat but it seems like there are some weird geometry going on here maybe I missed something in the surfaces thats causing it.

This is incredible!!  I wish I could do this to clothing!!!