HD addon versus HD characters
synechodus_b7d65b3411
Posts: 125
With all of the 8th generation main characters now coming with HD addons, why are the addons typically twice as expensive as stand alone HD characters where you get the whole mat/morph etc as well as the HD? Are the addons far higher resolution/quality or is there another reason for the difference? As far as I can see, all HDs will work on all characters, so why what is the advantage of a character addon (I know they are designed for that character specifically, but I always change the morphs to something 'less perfect' anyway so this is irrelevent)?
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I don't think it is fair that the promo images for Mrs. Chow show her with all the HD details but the text does not mention the fact that these details require an extra purchase.
While in a way I agree, promos always contain stuff besides the product they advertise.
@marble I honestly don't see much difference between the HD add-on and the normal maps that Mrs. Chow comes with. The first render is a default G8F with only the HD add-on, rendered at subD 3. The second is the same figure with only the normal maps (no HD add-on) applied, rendered at the subD level G8F defaults to when loaded. The last is the normal maps cranked up to a value of 1.5.
Well, that's interesting. I didn't know that she comes with detailed normal maps. I wanted to buy her in the FasGrab sale but was put off by the fact that HD doubled the price. I might buy her now, thanks.
Happy to help. Playing around with the Normal Map values (you'll need to go into the Parameter Settings and raise the default max value from 1 to 2) will probably give you the appearance you're hoping for.
I was very disappointed to see that the HD morphs for Mrs, Chow did almost nothing extra, compared to the normal maps that come with her base figure.
The Daz core HD figures always load with the HD morphs applied and normal maps turned off. The base (non HD) figures load with the normal maps turned on. If I load the base character and then dial in the HD morphs later, I always apply the material setting to turn normal maps off. Using HD morphs and their normal maps together can be too much.
Here are two renders I did of Mrs. Chow. One has only normal maps (as loaded by the Mrs. Chow figure). The other has the HD morphs and no normal maps (as loaded by the Mrs. Chow HD figure). Both were rendered with Render SubD Level 4. The clothing and hair fit slightly differently over the HD morphs, but there isn't much difference in Mrs. Chow herself. The HD add on seems unnecessary to me.
Mrs. Chow
Mrs. Chow HD
As you both say ... hard to tell them apart.
I don't own Mrs. Chow, but I'd imagine the difference would be more noticeable from the side...you'd see the actual folds vs just the shadows of them.
All that aside, I've noticed that Daz Original base figures typically have a stronger HD add-on that affects skin, lips, eye folds, etc...whereas some PA-made characters have HD add-ons that might just effect mostly lips. But that's in general.
The HD morphs can also be useful independant of the normal maps. I prefer the HD morphs to the normal map but it will allow me to use a little bit of X and a little bit of Y with a touch of Z. Normal maps are more just the skin surface and I might not want to use that skin for what I am working on.
Yep, same here...Almost all of the characters you see in my pieces use what I call "frankenskins".
Valid points. I was looking at the question from the point of view of a single Daz core character, and whether the HD addon was worth the high cost vs. just using the included normal maps to render THAT character.
I often use the HD details from one character on another. Is there a reason why this can't be done with the Mrs. Chow normal maps instead, so long as it is another G8F character, say, Mabel 8?
As they all use the same UV map, I don't suppose why not...however, Mrs. Chow is one of those characters that has a lot going on with the skin folds, and I think (up close) just a normal map addition on another character might look odd. You'd need the HD part of it to complete the look.
To go along with the example, I have used Sydney 8's normals independently...however her aging isn't is as extreme.
I *think* using a character's normal maps on a different character would be comparable to using a character's HD morphs on another character. In both cases, the problem is that the details in the normal maps or HD morphs won't match up with the lines and wrinkles on the other character's skin maps. A lot of what makes Mrs. Chow look old and wrinkled is her skin maps, not the normal or HD morphs. If you used both Mrs. Chow's skin and normal maps on Mabel, I *think* that would work fine.
@Wintermoon did a render of Teen Jane and Alexandra as mother and daughter, using Alexandra's textures on both, while forgetting to remove the normal maps from Jane. Here are the results:
If Mr's Chow's wrinkles are painted directly onto her color maps, that's an issue for me...because then the shadowing will not react to light as it's already baked in. Unless you're talking about just skin discoloration and crease marks. I'd have to actually see the color maps to know for sure...she's one of the few G8 characters I do not own.
Yes, there are what I would call wrinkles are on the diffuse color maps of Mrs. Chow 8, although I am not sure how you personally differantiate a "crease" from a wrinkle on a map.
Attached is just her diffuse map on an unmorphed G8F so you can judge for yourself.
Ah yes ... I don't like painted on shadows and lines either - especially where the skin can be stretched and on bendy areas. The glute crease is a classic example of this - fine when the leg is in zero pose but that thin line becomes an ugly wide band when the thigh/glute is posed (bent).
I guess what I think of when I say "crease mark" is the lines that are left behind, even when the skin is stretched out...like the ones on the palm of your hand or knuckles, or on someone who has an older brow.
@marble, you ask interesting questions that make me want to try it and see what happens. Here is Mabel 8 with her 1) own normal maps, 2) her own HD morphs, and 3) with Mrs. Chow normal maps and 4) with Mrs. Chow HD morphs. Mrs. Chow HD morphs did something funny to Mabel's ear. Other than that, things don't look too bad. Some of the Mrs. Chow forehead details and the wrinkles on her nose between her eyes don't match up with Mabel's skin details, but if you don't compare with what Mabel is supposed to look like, you probably wouldn't pay attention to those issues.
Well I really appreciate the time you took to experiment and, in doing so, answer my question. Thank you. I'm happy with your results.
Then hd morphs are morphs, that is, they can use jcms to adapt to the figure deformations. This is also why baking hd morphs to displacement maps in blender is not the same.
I think this applies to all characters. Here is Mr Woo (left: nothing applied, middle: normal maps, right: HD):
I've gotten similar results with Diego and Ashan. It took me that long to realize the normal maps from the base chars were pretty much the exact same as their HD morphs.
You should only buy HD morphs if you want to mix and match them with other characters and even then there might be compatibility issues as others mentioned.
In game development, normal maps are baked textures made from the high-poly sculpt to save processing time. So it sounds like the normal maps that come with Daz core figures are literally just rendered from the HD AddOn.
The decision for HD morph vs normal map comes down to how much detail you need. Normal maps won't affect the mesh, like a displacement map or HD morph would, so if you need to see the actual undulations in the mesh then HD morphs are the way.
I tend to use HD morphs, to get the basic mesh deformations, and use normal maps to get the fine detail - whilst leaving the figure's subdivision level at 2 (or 3 max). I find this provides a good balance between resource usage and detail. Close-ups can always be cranked up.
4 (4k) maps (normals or otherwise) add about 275mb to vram overhead. Subd level 3 (from level 2) adds 210mb. However, going to subd level 4 (from 2) adds about 1gb and level 5 (from 2) adds over 4gb.
I thought I'd share this as I was as would have been grateful if I could have found it myself on the forum before I made the purchase; I was curious as well if the HD really made that much of a difference so I pulled the trigger and got the Jacqueline 8.1 HD Add-On and made a quick test (with the emphasis on quick). Rendered with a SubDLevel 4, which in practice I will hardly ever use as I only have 4GB VRAM.
No-HD on the left, with HD on the right, identical render settings.
There is a difference, but I am not sure if the price, both in money and memory, are worth it for me and my purposes.
I also wanted to see the difference if a Hi-Pass overlay was applied in post so I made that one as well below, again Non-HD on the left, HD on the right as it are the same renders.
For me just applying a Hi-Pass filter in post seems the better option at the moment as I usually render as SubD 3.
I do have to say, the colours seem to be more "alive" with the HD-AddOn somehow.
@BlueFingers thanks for the comparisons.
i should've mentioned that I rendered both on subd 3.
I think normal maps should be rendered on at least subd 2+, and HD on subd 3+, to bring out their details. Often when you load it up it starts off as subd1 for some reason.
but thats the nice thing about normal maps-- you can keep them on a low subd level and it looks just as good.