Why does rigging hate me so much....
spearcarrier
Posts: 686
OK. So for this complete waste of my free time's project, I made a fishie type tail in Blender. I imported it in poser. I found lots of tutorials that only seemed to have incomplete information in regards to rigging up a framework. Including one youtube tutorial rigging a little creature that I simply had to give a thumbs down and move on from. I finally found this tutorial: http://philosophersegg.com/resources/SparkysDS4ProRiggingTutorial.pdf - which was better than the rest. I have followed it faithfully.
I have moving rigging. I have worked very hard to get gradients in the weight maps. DAZ has ignored me. I have deleted, redone, reworked, tried various settings, you name it. DAZ has ignored me. And the tutorials? C'mon guys, can't you simply give the settings that would make a spine rig work well instead of saying "play with the settings"? 12 hours later I've played with the settings and not gotten a single different result from the first time I set the bones up. I even cranked things to the max and got nothing. Gosh.
So what's happening. I get to the part in the tutorial where he bends his little duck's tail. And I can bend my own rig... sort of. Sort of in that... it doesn't bend not really. It doesn't show a smooth bend when moving (more like pauses and then pops up something after it's done). And the bend might as well be an ugly break. It will NOT bend smoothly the way he got his duck tail to do.
Is there something I'm missing here? I've read and reread his settings to make sure I get them right....
Did he miss something? Is there a more complete tutorial?
BTB, I did try to official DAZ manual one. Paintbrushes, aching hand, the works. DAZ ignored me.
So if someone could point me in the right direction that does NOT involve Youtube... (no offense, but seriously. No videos please.) I'd be much obliged. I'm out of free time here and... great disappoint. :-)
Thanks all.
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Comments
What does your mesh look like? If there aren't enough divisions it won't be possible to make it bend smoothly.
Thanks for the reply! I was worried no one would. LOL
I tried to keep it as gridlike as possible. But there are a few spots that the vertices decided to have a mind of their own. It's a lot of vertices; higher resolution than the model I'm wanting to attach it to. The duck in the tutorial, on the other hand, seems to be pretty low poly. I woke up this morning wondering if maybe I had too MANY edges.
No matter where the boning is, though, it breaks instead of bends. Through the entire model, even areas where the edges are clean.
You know how you're supposed to be shown this read and purple gradient when working on that? I don't get that either.
sounds like your model not welded
I had that with something I tried to rig in carrara once
adding smoothing also helped
before it just broke up when rigged
I have not modeled in Blender but in carrara all the mesh I use is modeled in the vertex room from polylines I extrude, bridge, join and fill etc so one mesh
I think some other ways of modeling give the unjoined polygons that would result in that
I wonder if you sculpted it perhaps like Sculptris with tris but the Blender equivelent?
I know I have to weld and smooth stuff I do in sculptris and uv map it too or it is a mess when rigged so might be similar issue
If you post some images in the of the joints and the weight maps that are not bending properly we may be better to pinpoint the problem. It sounds like a blending problem, where either the rotation order is not optimal to the joint params, or there is a something conflicting in the weightmaps. Try a screen capture of the DS with joint editor params and another with weight map highlighted. Lets focus on one axis at first. Rigging is tedious and getting the first limb right can be tricky. Hints: When setting up the joint params and weight maps, you should be testing motion using rotation parameter controls. Seeing the effect in real time helps you figure out the best rotate order and parameter values. Get one limb working, use what you learned to replicate to the others - or you can save time using symmetry/copy joints but I recommend that only after you are sure what s happening under the hood so to speak. Sounds like you understand the fundamentals of 3d but learning DS, I learn a lot by reading the cr2's & duf's in a text editor. Vim (vim.org) is free, fast and will not choke on the large text files.
Okay. I think I understand what everyone is staying. I do have an understanding of some of the fundamentals, but I also have a *lot* to learn. So when I have time I'll pick an arena and explore that. I often don't get to finish what I'm after. In this case, though, the object in question will be used for a project I have in mind... for starters. I'm only making it because it wasn't available anywhere - it's a mermaid tail for Cookie. The only one I could find was no longer available for purchase. So here I am, learning something I never wanted to bother with for the sake of art. =^-^= I mean I'm still struggling with subsurface shading (and totally don't get it) so didn't feel I was ready for this part.
So I'm starting over to try to get what you're saying better. But I will have to do it here and there through the day as work is pestering me to do things that pay the bills....
Like I said before, the mesh is pretty tight. It's actually got more in it than I wanted. When I told blender to unsubdivide, it would add criss-cross edges and I didn't like that. So I kept the mesh. It's actually based off a merchant resource skirt for Cookie.
So here's step one. I have my face groups set and ready to go. They've been given new breaks, more even divides. I also split the tail into two parts even though the tail wasn't originally going to be that way.
Okay now I have my rigging set up. I left the axis at the default. I've read again and again about where x goes and y goes and never can seem to get it straight. Hypothetical directions are a BIG failing of mine. Took me 30 years to get vertical and horizontal straight and I still have trouble with them, no joking. But in the past the default worked good enough so it will be fine.
You'd want y as the first axis, since that's the "lengthwise" direction. Whether you want yxz or yzx would depend on how you want the tail to flex - front-to-back, like a dolphin, you'd want yzx (because the x is going to be bending more than the z), side-to-side, like a fish, you'd want yxz (because the z is going to be bending more than the x).
Cookie and Chip are legacy rigged items (they are Poser figures) as far as I know, so you may be storing trouble up for yourself by making the tail a TriAx figure, at least when it comes to getting it to join smoothly to the body.
Anyway, this is where things break down. I have the top parent node selected just like in the tutorial. I have the weight brush selected. I've made sure it looks like his. My figure is not red. I got it to go red once last night.It's not going to do it again. I have no idea what to do to change this or get things to work right from here. I can go through the steps again just like I did before, but why... if DAZ is going to ignore me.
Well, having it with x first only means that side to side is really back to front and back to front is really side to side, so it appears so far. I tried changing axises last night and things went really weird with it flipping upside down and all sorts of unplanned stuff. So changing names works for me.
Yeah I know they're legacy rigged. I don't have poser, can't afford it. When it comes to work with Cookie in DAZ if I want to, say, add hair I import the hair without fitting. Then I manually use the scene tab to place it as parented to the head, change x and y numbers, then resize. Then I save as a wearable object. The hair follows the model when I move it about that way without going flat, which happens when I tell it to fit. The only draw back is it won't follow when a pose is added, but i just give it it's numbers back and it goes where it belongs normally. Clothing fits automatically, though, with no trouble usually. Even when I tell it NOT to fit... DAZ, once again, ignores me....
I also have experimented with changing Cookie to a Triax figure. Works for the most part except her eyes. But I haven't went far with that.
I am no expert in fact I am a Daz rigging noob
I was only asking about the mesh as you said it broke up
but
if I select the first bone in the heirachy before I weightpaint the other bones, the whole figure will be blue
it might be the way I do it
I used the rigging video for adding childbones not Blondies book, hers confused me too much at first, follow a bit more now but still basically do it the way in the video
for that method you start of with a figure
either using transfer utility on your mesh with the figure which must be a triax one
or under edit making your prop a figure
I myself choose general weight you can convert to triax after
then in the latter case it creates a hip which when selected the figure is red as it is the only bone
adding bones you can then paint mesh to be influenced by them
K, but I'm selecting the first bone and not getting *any* color.
And thanks, but I'm not gonna go to a video. They only frustrate me.
If you are using the latest DS they have changed the way the weight maps work so that an unweighted figure is neither blue nor red, but you should see colours once you start painting.
The first axis is twist, rotation in place about the axis, so having x or z first will not work for this - it's whether x is second or third that is optional.
yes my method does not use the setup tools window at all and is mostly hand painting
which is what you meant by aching hand I guess
I start with just one bone for the whole figure which is already weightpainted by default.
then add more memorize rigging and paint
you can try selecting the first bone and select all, fill selection
then unselect all and work on one bone at a time selecting groups you added with the polgon group editor and filling then unselecting
then give it falloff with the brush afterwards
the unconventional way I do it is based on how I rigged in carrara
WEll it helps to know that things work a little differently from type to type. LOL!
So I rebuild with it being a legacy framework and now when it bends it does so smoothly. There are weird striations through it...I'm guessing because of the mesh. They give the tail a bit of flavor but are not what I was aiming for. Because it's legacy so I can't do weight brushes or anything. You can see there's still some breakage from bone to bone though.
oooooooh you're using Carrara... I don't even have that I think. O_O
no I used and still use carrara, have for 5 years
studio crashed to the desktop on my old laptop just loading stuff frequently!
so until I bought a new desktop 2 years ago only used Daz studio as a carrara plugin
now as of the last few months, I am mostly rigging in Daz studio
I actually after initial doubts find it in many ways easier than carrara
if
I do it in a similar fashion to how I did it in carrara
but that is MY method not the way most would do it.
Okay...
So back to the joint breaking... how do I fix this issue? Do I set limits? Is there another tutorial I should find? Nothing can be done?
again as I was originally saying
it looks like your mesh is not welded
is there a weld vertex option in Blender to join it all up?
I assume there is.
Yes, I remember you mentioning welding. I've not found anything about that anywhere. So... throw the word at me, please, but... I've no clue what you're talking about sadly.
Merging Vertices
Mode: Edit mode
Hotkey: AltM
Menu: Mesh » Vertices » Merge..., Specials » Merge or Vertex Specials » Merge
This tool allows you to merge all selected vertices into an unique one, deleting all others. You can choose the location of the surviving vertex in the menu this tool pops up before executing:
At First
Only available in Vertex select mode, it will place the remaining vertex at the location of the first one selected.
At Last
Only available in Vertex select mode, it will place the remaining vertex at the location of the last one selected (the active one).
At Center
Available in all select modes, it will place the remaining vertex at the center of the selection.
At Cursor
Available in all select modes, it will place the remaining vertex at the 3D Cursor.
Collapse
This is a special option, as it might let “live” more than one vertex. In fact, you will have as many remaining vertices as you had “islands” of selection (i.e. groups of linked selected vertices). The remaining vertices will be positioned at the center of their respective “islands”. It is also available via the Mesh » Edges » Collapse menu option…
Merging vertices of course also deletes some edges and faces. But Blender will do everything it can to preserve edges and faces only partly involved in the reunion.
AutoMerge Editing
Mode: Edit mode
Menu: Mesh » AutoMerge Editing
The Mesh menu as a related toggle option: AutoMerge Editing. When enabled, as soon as a vertex moves closer to another one than the Limit setting (Mesh Tools panel, see below), they are automatically merged.
Remove Doubles
Mode: Edit mode
Panel: Editing context → Mesh Tools
Hotkey: W » 4 or CtrlV » Remove doubles
Menu: Mesh » Vertices » Remove Doubles, Specials » Remove Doubles or Vertex Specials » Remove Doubles
Remove Doubles is a useful tool to simplify a mesh by merging vertices that are closer than a specified distance to each other. An alternate way to simplify a mesh is to use the Decimate modifier.
Merge Distance
Sets the distance threshold for merging vertices, in Blender units.
Unselected
Allows vertices in a selection to be merged with unselected vertices. When disabled, selected vertices will only be merged with other selected ones.
copy paste from Blender wiki
seems to be the sane function as weld
You know it would have been simpler if you'd said "Blender has the function"... and then maybe... "welded before you exported into DAZ"....because I've been sitting here trying to find it in *DAZ*. And I just now tried to open these edit modes and things in *DAZ*. I appreciate your help greatly. Just saying...what a confusion! O_O
Okay, so gotta do it before exporting from Blender. Well it's a start. Sadly I'm out of time today (as usual) and have been ignoring work over this. LOL... I don't wanna work.
Oh I guess I should note that this entire list you just copy and pasted I did through the entire modeling process over and over. So if this is welding, this figure had it done repeatedly throughout. Except for mesh -> merge -> special... etc... because I have no such function. Working on this tail in blender has been especially frustrating because the wiki and all of the tutorials are out of date compared to the latest version, which I have. At least with DAZ when a tutorial is out of date I know it enough to figure it out. With blender I have used words my father never would have used and learned to hate it dearly.
When I do simply mesh, merge, collapse I get a missing object because, well, everything has been collapsed and nothing is left.
sorry I did not know what you think I meant
and more to the point I more than swear at Blender and respect those willing to use it muchly :lol:
in carrara I select all and weld using near tollerance or something
in Hexagon have similar choice
do not know equivelant in Blender.
No worries! I seriously appreciate the effort. I've learned a lot from this thread so all is not lost.
I've found if I give my motions limits the bend break doesn't happen. They just can't go beyond limits... which is rather frustrating because I need this tail to be very flexible... and looking the same in both Poser or DAZ. So sure I can do the triax method in DAZ - if I can just figure it out - but it won't be the same for Poser. So I'd like to figure out how to make things smooth in regular weight first then go out from there. One step at a time deal.
I'm thinking maybe the look I want isn't possible.
If I could learn how to rig in blender (harder than dAZ I tried!) I could move the tail bout and make DAZ morphs for it.
The tail is on it's way, and I wanted to thank everyone for their help. Now I have to work late tonight to make up for "getting sucked into the tail" time. LOL... but worth it maybe. I'm thinking I need to rework the base a bit as it doesn't quite look like it belongs on Cookie... but I probably won't. :-)
I have basic boning in, but I had to put it in Triax format to get things to move how I wanted them to. I found a tutorial earlier today for adding pose controls so I guess that's my next step.
Weirdly when I add smoothing and push modifiers it does weird things.
So it is on Cookie (who is not nekkid, don't let the grey fool you). To put it on her I told it fit to. When I applied the pose I simply put her x and y coordinates back to 0. To get it to fit her hips, as I cookie doughed the body, I originally did a tweak but it straightened out after the pose. So far so good I guess.
Wow, she's cute.
If I was DAZ Studio would look at the code in Pinocchio or buy the algorithm from Mixamo to auto-rig bipeds & quadrupeds. A mermaid is a different story but they could probably to that too although there is not near as much call for it.
I'm not sure what you said but I think you're talking about two other programs?
I thought I'd mention since you talked of how much rigging causes you trouble.
Updated: I left off the 'if'. Yes, 2 auto-rigging programs.
One is online at Mixamo.com: http://www.mixamo.com/c/auto-rigger
Here is a link to the other: http://www.mit.edu/~ibaran/autorig/pinocchio.html