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I've only done one piece of "art", but I've waved it and several variations on the setup around like it was money going out of fashion!
All of them!!! So 100%!
I've been an art student and I never showed my works to anyone cause they were always terrible....
Until I got a great friend who really wanted to see them... And I showed them... He called me a fool and I was surprised... I had very nice drawing works... Not as good as now, but really nice...
That day I decided that I was no longer going to hide my work. Yes, it's not perfect... Yes, it will improve... Yes, one day I will look at them and see how much better I got... But this is what I'm doing now so... it's open to everyone...
It took me a while to share them with public and not just to some friends, but I now put everything I do in 2 pages:
facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/taniagomes.art
DA page - http://taniagomesart.deviantart.com/
All works from the last 1 or 2 years are there. Drawings and digital work (which I started 5 months ago). So, it's open to all of you to see ;)
If the goal is to improve from a technical standpoint, then there are ways to do that. Most of us want to improve technically, but we'd also like to know that we don't suck already and that this line of study isn't a waste of our time. We want to feel good that our instincts and natural tendencies can help us to produce works better than our current experience level would indicate. We want to know if we have any talent for making this type of art. Most of us seek this validation by sharing our works with others. We all hope for positive feedback when we post images.
At Rendo, very few people are actually interested in technical growth and dedicated feedback. Most people just want to be told how awesome their render is. My personal opinion is that Rendo voters respond much more to the artistic choices than the technical ones. People go more for the balloons image with bright colors even though the rendering is awful from a technical standpoint (bad light, poor textures) while the near photo-real render of a toothbrush gets no views at all.
That's where Daz3d comes in. At least over here there are some people who are willing to get down and dirty and truly hash out the technical aspects of rendering. You just have to invite them in.
My suggestion to you is to show more images, but not as finished artworks. Show the images as mere "technical studies" and see what happens then. I suspect you will get much more feedback. People dont often give negative feedback on a finished work of art for fear of offending the artist who may well be aware of the technical failings but indeed likes the art at it is anyhow and expects you to like it as well. When a piece is presented as a mere technical study, there is nothing personal about it anymore so viewers will feel safer about giving negative feedback. And I think it is easier to accept negative feedback about a technical study than it is to receive negative feedback about a finished work of art.
Pick one (technical) thing and study that for a while then move onto the next thing. I am currently on a thing with making Trees with Carrara. I am not setting out to make specific tree species, I am just playing around with the tool for fun and later, much much much later, I will set out to make specific trees once I know well how the tool operates. You might pick water, or skin, or clouds, or vertex modeling, or bullet physics, it's entirely up to you. Share with us your discoveries with whatever technical aspect you are exploring at the moment. Next thing you know you'll be an expert with at least one thing, so now you can give helpful technical advice to others.
Don't be discouraged. Keep it up. You never know whom you may inspire.
critiques are a back stroking exercise. ie if I c and c your work then you are morally obliged to c and c mine etc,
That is, if you c and c enough people's work then they will do the same in return.
It's also about asking the right questions. I had an old teacher (now a good friend) who used to quiver when he came to c and c my paintings because I woud always ask him "Bob, how can I improve this painting?" It was an open ended question but got the most thoughtful response.
The other thing is you can't value your work by audience response. You need to value it in your own heart.
I've been to lots of painting shows where the paintings have been wonderful, the prices reasonable, and the painter slash wrists despondent - because nothing has been sold. The painter loses faith in his own work for the wrong reason.
I've also seen a few renders on this forum that have not received comments (in the past), not because there was something wrong, but because the poster hadn't played by the scratch back philosophy of c and c ing.
Just my observations and not necessarily true .
This is a good question. Almost everything I do gets seen by someone, either IRL or online.
The catch is, I feel like I've never really "Finished" anything.
There is always something else I want to fix or tweak, until I just finally abandon what I'm working on and move on to something new.
I even started using self-imposed deadlines as a completion clause of sorts so that I don't get OCD about the never-ending minutiae.
Screenwriters have a saying for when they finish writing a script, I don't remember it exactly but it's something like "scripts are never finished, they're just abandoned."
Agreed. It's almost a bummer sometimes. A lot of the stuff I have shown here is not really me... just an unfinished example of something I've been testing in Carrara. And even then, it's just a single frame, where the real beauty that I enjoy is in motions - moving, living art, is what I'm endeavoring to achieve. Never, shall I be finished... I realize this now. But I do hope to get a bunch of this concept complete enough to share with the world.
I also agree with the above post by HeadWax, although I never really thought into it like that before reading his words.
IamAristX, Rashad has a very good point about finding some aspect of your art program you want to learn or excel at. On this forum I'm referring to Carrara of course. ;-)
I started out using RayDream 5, and used it until hardware upgrades and OS updates rendered it unusable. I then spent some time trying different software, including Poser, and Bryce. Then I found Carrara just after it had been sold to DAZ 3D. I had a lot to learn, so I first started with lighting and the Texture room which had some things that were familiar, such as Layer Lists, and a lot that wasn't. Textures and lighting go hand in hand, so I felt I needed to cover those two areas. Once I felt I had a basic foundation, I started to go into more depth in other areas. My learning curve was greatly reduced by the carryover from Raydream and the other Meta-Creation software (Bryce and Poser) I had used.
If it's C&C you want, try one of the challenges. There's a lot of good information in them and it's a friendly way to give and receive C&C. I have yet to see any flames in any of the eight challenges we've had so far.
C&C ???:-S
sorry "comment and critique"
in the past some people thought it is "comment and criticism"
that's where it becomes a not nice exercise ;)
I didn't think that Command and Conquer sounded right...
I was going for Command & Control...
#Babylon5
Cute and cuddly ? :) leer gaps
Humm that last word was meant to be perhaps - don't you hate autofillemup?
All of which are much better than Censored and Cut ;)
Its been good to read various contributions to this interesting topic - I can relate to many of the thoughts raised here. I estimate I show maybe 70% of my "finished" pics to others. And many don't reach a stage Im happy is "finished"!
I think that in presenting a picture to others (and in looking at other people's work), the elements of the scene must be at least coherent/integrated and consistent in style and visual logic. The style can be ultra-realistic, ordinary, toon, surreal, grunge, or anywhere between or totally something else.
This is where technical skill comes in as important, to be able to deliver this visual consistency in the arteficial 3D CG world. And where elements are not consistent, the scene suffers artistically as well because the story / visual impression coming from the scene cannot reach through to the viewer's brain without stumbling on inconsistent elements.
Hence often the most amazing work is done by those with good technical skills - then their artistic vision can be more fully realised in their work,in whatever style/form it takes.
Regarding critique of CG works - maybe we need to step up the trend of commenting on both the artistic side AND the technical side of things, to counteract the mere reciprocal "liking" type picture rating that is so prevalent.
I agree with everything you said, and I wholeheartedly support this idea I quoted. It would be so wonderful if we could set this up. Question is, where would be a good platform to do so? Here in the forum?
It has to be a place were people could get notified about new posts (so for a Forum, if all images are posted to same thread, commenting could get confusing, so each image would need its own thread and we would need something like an index thread to which people could subscribe and get notices about new threads with images for C&C), a place where updated images could easily be posted, preferably without replacing the original image, so it would remain for comparison, and a place which gets good amount of traffic, so there would be a lot of people who'd see it and have a chance to comment. And also, it would have to be made clear somehow that mere liking comments are discouraged...
Any ideas on how to go about it?
Perhaps the Carrara Cafe? It's been getting re-vamped and seems to load much faster. Maybe Holly could set up a critique sub-forum? Basic rules would be to be polite and leave egos at the door for both the artist and the viewers offering c & c. Speaking of potential rules, since some issues with images are technical issues. If you're leaving a comment saying this or that should be different, you should be prepared to back it up with some suggestions on how to do it if the artist asks.
I haven't seen much traffic in CarrarCafe forums, so I am not sure it will work. But if that changes somehow, then it would be great.
I was also thinking that it would be great if the C&C happened somewhere with a wider range of artists than just Carrara users, because it's all art at the end of the day, and while software considerations are important for technical suggestions, there are ways to achieve similar results in almost any software out there. I know that I've often studied Poser-based light sets when trying to achieve a similar result in Carrara, and it worked, even though I haven't rendered a single render in Poser ever. And I was able to successfully adopt to Carrara many tricks that other software users (DS, Poser, Cinema4d, LightWave, etc) have kindly shared with me.
So maybe something like a general forum here with a ghost index threads in Carrara Discussin, DS Discussion, Bryce Discussion, Poser Discussion, and the Commons for good measure?
(It could also raise awareness and visibility of software like Carrara and Bryce.)
P.S. There is already the Art Studio Forum, but I think the ghost Index threads would bring the necessary attention to C&C topics across the whole community.
Also, the Index thread could hold the C&C rules for all to see and follow.
you can only ghost a post to one other forum
@Antara, Just a Wild Idea, but perhaps we could set up an actual DAZ account/identity which is for works people want real technical in out on, and somehow allow users (who want to "sign up" to this special ID/account (somehow), to be able to use this account's gallery - thus all the comments will appear attached to each specific picture, and its easy for anyone to browse the gallery, see comments and give comments etc.
The owners of the pictures can remove pics which are outdated WIPs when they feel the time is right; and add the final pic to their gallery (or leave the WIP up for a while with a link to the final in their own galley so followers can see the end results).
Perhaps need one such special "4 serious C&C" account for each of DAZ's product - Bryce Carrara Hexagon etc.
The forum format is quite painful & inefficient to follow specific items on, especially for busy people.
Perhaps DAZites could advise on whether such special accounts are possible. I guess someone (That means you Antara) just needs to open the special account and let others know what the login details are to allow use...?
I would not be the one to mess with DAZ accounts and DAZ galleries, that's for sure. I don't have a DAZ gallery and don't plan to start one. I am not comfortable using and browsing them either. They don't seem conveniently designed for my browsing habits.
But I will think more about a good way to do this through the already available forums, and if I come up with a good method, I will talk to forum moderators and community volunteers about setting it up. Unless you find a way to thins in the galleries and it seems like a better method to everyone else.
I can't think of a way to do it using the existing forums to be honest.
chohole, what are your main concerns about it not working in the Forums?
I thought about it and so far came up with this setup:
Have a sticky C&C thread in the Art Studio with the C&C guidelines for what appropriate and not, and the following rules:
- Reply only with the link to the new C&C image thread
- Subscribe to get updated with the new images for C&C
Have that thread ghosted in the Commons, where it could get attention of people. There it probably doesn't need to be sticky, because it would just pop up whenever people post new images, thus alerting people who have never seen it before to the thread's existence.
When someone has an image they want critiqued, it would be up to them to post it in a new thread of the Art Studio Forum with the request and any specific questions or aspects they want help with, then post to the link to that new thread as a reply to the C&C index thread.
In the software discussion forums, link the C&C index thread as one of the resources in one of the sticky threads on top OR have a sticky thread with the link to the C&C index thread and instructions to post replies whenever software specific image related to the forum is posted to the C&C.
Would this not be possible? Is it impossible to sticky a thread? Would it violate any of the Forum rules? Any other pitfalls this setup is likely to encounter?
I will have a chat with the team, and especially with my colleague who has Art Studio as one of his "special" forums, and get back to you.
That could work
Now we just need the Carrara Cafe App for Android and AppleTablets for easy browsing and notifications on the train. ;) Since I'm on the train for 2 hours every day.
Boojum
Another idea would be to create a new topic in this forum, explain your own C&C rules that you would like folks to adhere to, post your image, and see what happens.
critiques are a back stroking exercise. ie if I c and c your work then you are morally obliged to c and c mine etc,
That is, if you c and c enough people's work then they will do the same in return.
It's also about asking the right questions. I had an old teacher (now a good friend) who used to quiver when he came to c and c my paintings because I woud always ask him "Bob, how can I improve this painting?" It was an open ended question but got the most thoughtful response.
The other thing is you can't value your work by audience response. You need to value it in your own heart.
I've been to lots of painting shows where the paintings have been wonderful, the prices reasonable, and the painter slash wrists despondent - because nothing has been sold. The painter loses faith in his own work for the wrong reason.
I've also seen a few renders on this forum that have not received comments (in the past), not because there was something wrong, but because the poster hadn't played by the scratch back philosophy of c and c ing.
Just my observations and not necessarily true .
It's not the case I want my back or anything else stroked, I simply wish to learn, and as I have said, just because I may be happy with it (I am never happy with any image I do) doesn't mean there is something I have overlooked, I mean we all do it, and as my art teacher always said, some times a fresh pair of eyes will see something tired eyes have not"
How can I learn if I don't ask questions?
As for how good an image is based response from the audience, as I have said above the comments on Rendo towards some images posted there opened my eyes to things
I started out using RayDream 5, and used it until hardware upgrades and OS updates rendered it unusable. I then spent some time trying different software, including Poser, and Bryce. Then I found Carrara just after it had been sold to DAZ 3D. I had a lot to learn, so I first started with lighting and the Texture room which had some things that were familiar, such as Layer Lists, and a lot that wasn't. Textures and lighting go hand in hand, so I felt I needed to cover those two areas. Once I felt I had a basic foundation, I started to go into more depth in other areas. My learning curve was greatly reduced by the carryover from Raydream and the other Meta-Creation software (Bryce and Poser) I had used.
If it's C&C you want, try one of the challenges. There's a lot of good information in them and it's a friendly way to give and receive C&C. I have yet to see any flames in any of the eight challenges we've had so far.
I am starting to do that a lot more now, than in the past, lighting has always been one thing I wanted to do better, as was learning the shaders, getting a bit better at that, the latest is learning how to make shaders for Luxrender for the Luxus program, and that is proving a much more difficult proposition for me :(
Please understand that I see beyond "Image perfection" from an art standpoint when I reply to images in the Post your Renders thread. Sometimes, someone is showing something that they're working on. So if I say "Wow... Very freaking Cool!" that doesn't necessarily mean that I am trying to imply that the image itself deserves to be on the cover of the 3d World magazine.
That's just me... I enjoy seeing my friends make progress.
On that final note about Luxus, try not to get too down about that. That's a whole new learning curve taking you further away from learning Carrara, even though you're still using Carrara... you're actually learning how to replace Carrara's cool lighting and shaders with a completely different set of cool lighting and shaders... so give yourself credit and patience for even small achievements in that regard - especially if you're still learning the Carrara ways of doing these things. I commend your aggressive self-learning on that. In case you didn't already know, there are excellent guides on Luxrender shaders and lighting and such at the luxrender site, I think it was. In the Forum Help Threads index I made, there are some links to some of the earlier threads for Luxor for Carrara, with some great info and links to help and learn this stuff ;)
As for lighting and shader creation in Carrara... I have found a real passion in that. I know... a lot of my posted images have some really bland, evenly spread lighting solutions... try not to take that as the end of my practices in this field ;)
Sometimes I will lose myself for hours and hours, days upon days, enjoying different lighting and major changes in what I normally show for lighting and shaders. Carrara is so easy to make huge, entirely different effects using shaders. I guess all good rendering software do to at least some extent. But for some reason, I have really taken a liking to how Carrara handles this stuff.
Since I've acquired Birn's Digital lighting and rendering book, I've picked up on some new techniques using lights that I've never tried before, and they've been right there, staring me in the face! Not all of which were direct suggestions from the book, but rather my imagination going to work as I try to sleep after reading passages from that awesome course. I still haven't even finished the book... embarrassed to say...but it drives a lot of new techniques, even though it started off explaining a lot of the methods that I already use to design my own lighting setups.
I've only owned Carrara for four years now and the first two years I couldn't be in it much due to work and other real-life issues. I am very thankful to the creators of Carrara for making it so wonderful for learning while tinkering. But yeah... asking questions and checking out what other folks are asking, and how folks answer... helps a lot more - showing us things that we might not have noticed or thought to try... it is a vast place, after all.
Try not to feel frustrated. It can take a long time to learn software that is geared towards strict goals. Carrara is made to allow for nearly any digital art goal - so it has a lot to it. I am quite certain that ten years from now, there will still be things with it that I haven't yet tried.
Just in case you haven't seen this yet, here's the Forum Help Links index.
Oh I have been using Carrara for a while, was even a vendor here briefly, but as with anything, you can never know enough about the program you are using, I did look at animation, but got rather frustrated with that, so maybe that isn't for me, I also tried to use Hexagon to try and make a rather basic prop for a scene, but it kept crashing, so that was the end to my attempt there, only used it as people said it had more than what Carrara could offer, but who knows, I may try again
I would say, maybe 5 % of what I really finished becomes public - most of the time at DeviantArt.
Reasons for that are pretty simple...
Some of my stuff is pretty mature - even if very aesthetic since I put huge amount of love and effort into my work.... - yet such art is totally not allowed at portals like DeviantArt. Either too sexual or too bloody or too pagan-religious... (but never insulting!)
Renderotica is nice - but I never really liked their website mechanics and the limitations when it comes to Images and Gallerie...
Plus, their stuff mainly focusses on sexual content... not that I mind, but I like to create all sorts of sinister mature stuff and some is as sexual as an old tea cup on a window's swill.
If anyone knows a high-quality portal similar to DeviantArt (especially something with the Premium Membership) that allows quality mature content it might change.
Btw. by mature content I am !!!not only!!! referring to sexually explicit stuff, but also other things underage Kids shouldn't get to see and some other adults don't want to see.
So please, no comments like "Go to a porn website" ^^ yep had such comments at DevArt - but even if some of my stuff is explicit, I would not call it "Porn".
I have thought about doing images much like yourself and have ran into the same thing, as soon as you say mature, or adult themed people always think porn, so it put me off a bit, maybe i should just say to hell with it and do the images I want to do and damn what people think :)