Next Desktop PC For Daz (November)
LenioTG
Posts: 2,118
Hi everyone!
I'm planning to build a more serious rig for Daz Studio around November 2020.
I know it's too soon to talk about details, but I also know that if you're as nerd as I am you enjoy doing so! :D
New hardware is going to come out, prices are going to drop, but I'd like to realize something along these lines:
LINK: https://it.pcpartpicker.com/list/wvK4Qq
I do play videogames, study, video-editing etc., but the main purpose of this PC is Daz Studio.
I would like to reinvest the income I get with my 3D comics into a proper desktop PC.
Do you see any mistake? Would you recommend different hardware? Would you get the same performance with less money?
Keep in mind that I live in Italy, the used market is basically non-existent, and the only viable store is Amazon.it.
- CPU
I'm not sure if I should go for a Ryzen 9 3900X or for a Ryzen 7 4700X. It depends on the price and on performance. But I'd spend around 350€.
I'm currently using a Ryzen 5 1600. I've also had a Ryzen 5 3600, and it's crazy fast, but I think it still bottlenecks something. G8 characters loading is crazy slow.
- CPU Cooler
I've already used the Arctic Freezer 34 eSports Duo, and I liked it. It cools down properly and it's silent.
I don't want a loud computer.
- Motherboard
It's impossible to decide on the mobo model 6 months ahead, but I liked something like the Asus Rog Strix B450-F
I don't care about aesthetics at all.
I like that it has 2x16-lanes-PCIe slots, all the various USB ports, and 3 system fan headers. I'm very open to suggestions.
It's not a problem that it doesn't support Ryzen 3000/4000 out of the box, I have older CPUs to update the BIOS.
- Memory
I'm currently using 16GB 2400Mhz, and it's clearly not enough.
I've used 32GB 3200Mhz, and there were times when I had fewer RAM than Daz Studio needed.
This 64GB 3200Mhz kit is the cheapest. I hope prices will drop.
- Storage
I want to have my whole Daz library on a single SSD. I've already tried a Samsung 860 QVO 2TB and I think it's perfect for the job, at the right price.
I already have the other drives listed in the pcpartpicker list, I'll use them for other data.
- GPU
It won't be a 2080 SUPER!
I expect the RTX 3080 to be in that price range, and I'd like to get one.
In 2021/22 I'd like to add a 2nd 3080 down the line.
- Case
My current case wouldn't allow me to have two GPUs, and it can't have more than 2x 120mm fans.
I am looking for a case that could contain 140mm fans, all of my storage drives, an ATX motherboard, two GPUs and with dust filters. I like a professional black look without glass side panels.
I have read great reviews of this Fractal Design Define S, and it looks like it has all the features I need, at an accessible price.
Most of the places where the fans will go have a dust filter, and I can buy some for the places that haven't one.
- Fans
I already have 2 good Noctua 120mm PWM fans, so I'm planning to use those for the moment.
I want to add a 3rd 140mm PWM silent fan with good airflow, and two more down the line. Or even more, but in that case I'd need a fan controller.
- PSU
My current PSU has 750W. It's very good for the moment, but for when I'll add a 2nd GPU, I'll need at least a 1000W PSU.
Overall, I think I'll add the 2nd GPU, PSU, case and fans down the line.
So around November I would spend 410 (CPU and cooler) + 140 (mobo) + 360 (memory) + 220 (storage) + 800 (GPU) + 30 (wifi) = 1960€ or 2160$.
In 2021 I'd add 700 (2nd GPU) + 150 (case and fans) + 180 (PSU) = 1030€ or 1130$.
Do you think it's a nice project? What would you improve?
I can't spend more than that.
Thank you in advance for your comments!
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Comments
Sabrent makes 4TB NVME M2 2280 SSDs (Sabrent Rocket), which comes in TLC and QLC versions.
That should give you a bit more room for your Daz Library...
IMO the focus should be on the GPU, which a 3080 (if it's out by then...) should be fantastic. VRAM is king, with system RAM coming second (in case of the necessity to CPU render large scenes). If going from a 3900X to a 3800X will get you close to a higher GPU with more VRAM then that would be a priority. The huge amount of cores in the CPU isn't going to help you in Daz interface, only CPU rendering. And stay with an "X" Ryzen to ensure highest boost frequency.
Longer Daz loading times are probably not because of the CPU at all. Having everything on a SSD can help that. But you could be getting errors that are slowing things down, check your log file for errors when loading up a character. Also, just having a large library of Genesis models will slow down how quickly the Genesis loads. If you have lots of Genesis 8 females on your roster, then she will take longer to load.
There is an easy way to test this. Load up a Genesis you have little content for. Like for me, I have few Genesis 2 Males, so when I load G2M, he loads quicker than my other Genesis bases. Or Genesis 1, I have very little Genesis 1 content, too, so Genesis 1 loads pretty quick as well.
The only way to really speed up loading is to delete the characters you do not use anymore from Daz.
Aside from that, Daz Studio is a single threaded app, so it only uses one thread at a time. So multiple cores do not help how well Daz Studio itself runs. What helps is a single fast core, so the better single threaded performance is, the better Daz Studio will run. However, Daz is not too resource heavy on its own, though it may depend on how large and complex your scenes are. If I build a big scene with several characters and props my Daz Studio will start to become less responsive as it gets bigger, especially if it has lots of geometry. If this happens to you, then maybe look at this aspect for CPU performance. But most Ryzen CPUs have reasonably good single core now. I really doubt you can get much better performance going beyond a 3600 for Daz. The rumored 4700G sounds pretty sweet and could have great single core performance.
The only other reason to look at CPU performance is if you are doing things outside of Daz, like gaming. For gaming in 2020 and beyond, having 8 cores and 16 threads is going to be much more important. Both new consoles will have Ryzens with that spec, so I fully expect more games to target that.
I believe the 3080 will be pretty nice if the rumors are true, like it having 10GB VRAM. I also do not believe it will cost more than a 2080 does now, so with just 4 months until September, I think its a good idea to wait and see just how things shake down.
You can also get around space limitations using Sysinternals Junction, which lets you move/mount/map complete directories/folders onto other directories/folders on different drives without breaking the original folder tree/directory structure, still keeping each and every drive functional as their own - As opposed to striped RAID systems.
This also allows you to upgrade the the disks (total space) in smaller increments (one disk at a time) = More cost efficient.
Maybe Nvlink for the 2 GPU
While the overall plan looks good I do have some suggestions.
Video editing, whether you use Premier or Resolve, can benefit from more threads so if that is important go for the 3900 or equivalent. If not go for the 3600. I'm positive the 3600 is not bottlenecking a figure load in DS.
For Mobo's if you want a B450 I'd lean towards the MSI Tomohawk Max it is a very good board and has out of the box support for Ryzen 3000. Also AMD has said B450 will support Ryzen 4000. However you could save yourself some messing about if you find an X470 or X570 with wifi built in. That would save you from needing an add in card.
RAM, if you're set on 64Gb, or any 4 stick kit, then you can go down in speed. The more stiocks of RAM, and the higher total capacity goes, the slower the CPU can access the RAM. You could safely drop down to 3000 or 2666 and not notice a performance hit.
Storage, I have no idea how serious you are about DS but 2Tb is relatively small amount for storage of assets. What I'd do is get multiple cheaper drives and run them in RAID 10. You'll get double the capacity of the smallest drive in the array and double the throughput of the slowest, if they all match that's 2x storage and 2x speed with 4 drives.
Case, if you can get a Define S at retail go for it but that case seems to be out of production. don't pqay more than $100 for it. there are much better cases at anything higher. Also since you're planning to buy fans anyway you could look at something like the Lian Li o11 dynamic.
...sounds sort of like the type of system I would build with more "overhead" which would allow for future expansion.
I would stick with the fastest memory that doesn't require overclocking (which is noted by "(OC)" on the motherboard memory specs. Using higher speed memory without overclocking is a waste of money.
64 GB seems is pretty sufficient and seems to be where systems are heading As to the CPU, Ryzen CPUS only support 2 memory channels while Threadrippers support 4. That does make a bit of difference in operations which involve manipulating large amounts of data.
Storage, yeah, the more the better, I have only 2 TB but my asset library isn't as large as others as I am on a tight budget, tend to dial spin my own custom characters, and not into certain genre like fantasy, or horror, (so I don't have much if any related content). So far I haven't even filled half the drive.
With Windows 10 be aware that about 15% of your GPU VRAM will be "reserved" (not available for rendering) so that 8 GB come to around 6.8 GB. If you tend to create big scenes, this is where having a lot of memory and a high core/thread count CPU is a good backup as while slower than GPU rendering, it wouldn't be as significantly so as using a lower core count CPU and less memory (the latter which could result in the process dumping to swap mode on your HDD or SSD. Only the more expensive Quadro and Titan GPUs can bypass that by switching to TCC (Tesla Compute Cluster) mode however you would need a secondary GPU to drive the displays as in TCC mode teh card is exclusively used for crunching numbers and there is no video output.
Waiting on the Ampere series sounds like a good move because specs are not set in stone yet. Who knows maybe the 3080 Super might have 10 GB and Nvidia may have found a way to get around WDDM. I did so years ago with when there was word of the forthcoming i7 hyperthreading CPUs and it turned out to be a solid move over getting a Core2 quad or Athalon that were currently available then.
One of the hamstrings when creating scenes in Daz is viewport lag which gets worse with the more elements you have as OpenGL can only handle so much. True there is Iray View mode but first, the more VRAM and GPU cores you have, the more responsive it is, and second, apparently, VRAM still is not cleared for rendering after switching back to OpenGL unless you shut the programme down and restart it (part of the reason I was hoping that new "big thing" hinted at would have been be a realtime process like Eevee or Pro Render).
__________
I still have yet to see conclusive evidence that Daz Iray supports NVLInk memory pooling. A few other engines like Vray and Octane Render do support it (Octane also supports "out of core" rendering which allows the engine to use system RAM to store the texture load freeing up the GPU for rendering, this is very helpful if you don't have a high VRAM GPU like a 2080Ti or Titan).
If you get a RTX 3080 though, you probably won't be able to use it in DS until 6-12 months later than when it is released. I beleive thats how long it took for those with the RTX 2080 to be able to use their GPUs in DAZ due to driver issues. I would just get whatever best GPU is supported by DAZ at the time you are ready to build, otherwise you will be very dissapointed if you have to wait months to use it. As far as CPU, it makes sense to stick with Ryzen, especially if you do other things that can use the extra cores, like video editing. AMD is still the better value in that regard. Although if you're a hardcore gamer, than I guess intel still has a slight advantage. I've had both Intel and Ryzen, but recently switched to Ryzen and am very happy with it. I do a lot of video editing and appreciate the multicore performance.
While 4 channel memory has more bandwidth you'd be hard pressed outside a RAM benchmark to saturate a Ryzen memory controller in dual channel.
Also all DDR4 running faster than, IIRC, 2133 is overclocked. To get the RAM to run faster than that always requires enabling the XMP profile. No memory maker, mobo vendor or CPU maker ever voids a warranty if you'veset an XMP even though it is technically overclocking.
Ryzen does significantly benefit from high speed memory and 3200 to 3600 is the sweet spot for 2 stick kits on Ryzen 3000. Intel CPU's also benefit but to a lesser degree due to differences in architecture.
I read elsewhere that the delay you mention was probably due to the fact that the RTX 2xxx range was a transition from GTX but that does not apply to the RTX 3xxx range because they are already RTX. Hopefully that made some sense.
In Italy it's 900€ xD
But even if it was sold at 450€, it would be still way more than I'm willing to spend on that.
My library is not even 2TB! If I'll need more space, I'll delete some unused shaders, or get another SSD down the line.
I won't buy another GPU until the 3000 series will be out, even if I'll have to wait. I'm using an RTX 2060 so it's okay for now!
I disable CPU fallback, and I always disable CPU rendering, so I'd need the RAM for standard use. With the RTX 2070 Super I had, the 32GB were all saturated while rendering with the GPU only.
Thanks, I have checked the whole log and uninstalled every single product that gave any error. But I do have many G8 characters, so maybe that's what's slowing it down. I don't understand, if the morphs are not even used.
Yes, earlier generations take much less time to load, but I thought it was for the geometry or something like that.
I create so many custom characters using those morphs that there's a chance I've used most of those characters at least once. Yes I could delete many and reinstall if needed though.
So when it says to enable multithreading in the settings it's just for rendering purpose?
If all I need is single-core performance, then I could save a lot of money with a Ryzen 5 3600X I guess.
I do like videogames, but it's not a priority for me. Most of my favorite games are strategic/management, and in general I never do competitive stuff, so I don't care about losing a few fps.
Those are the rumors that made me think about it! I know it'll be expensive, but I basically render every day.
I had no idea, thank you for the suggestion, it may be really useful and I'll look into that :D
I don't think I'd use it, I gladly save those 100€!
Video editing is secondary to Daz, then I guess a 3600 would be a much better value!
I had not thought about that. I don't want a X570 because of the fan, I think it's one more thing that could break. But if a mobo with Wi-Fi integrated doesn't cost more than 30€ of what I'm willing to spend, I can take it into consideration!
Sure, I could go 2x32GB, thanks! I see there's a Corsair Vengeance LPX Kit at 3200Mhz for 350€.
My library is currently around 1TB, but I have a ton of useless stuff installed, so I think 2TB is more than enough for me now!
I'll use that drive for "My Daz3D Library" folder only. I have everything else on different drives.
I'm not experienced with RAID! And that would mean I'd have to buy another drive.
I prefer cases with no transparent sides, but thank you for the suggestion!
The Define S is sold for 90€ in Italy at the moment, I don't know if it'll be around in November then.
Yes I always do a little bit of RAM overclocking, but nothing major.
I can't even find RAM with different clock speed than 3000-3200Mhz at that capacity in Italy, so I don't really have a choice.
I know about the VRAM. I'd like to buy the 3080 because it'll have 10GB.
My first 600 renders were done with a card with 3GB of VRAM.
Now I use 6GB and sometimes it's not enough, but when I had 8GB I never had any problem. So I guess 10GB is cool for me.
I don't think that'll be the case. In any case, I'll wait for feedback on the forum before buying it.
I'd never choose Intel in this time period. It looks like a very bad choice upgrade and price-wise, so it's not for me.
Yes I think the same!
Nvidia makes Iray to make us buy more GPUs, I don't think it's in their interest to prevent us from buying some in the period where they're closer to their original price.
The wait for the 10x0 cards to be supported was longer than the wait for the 20x0 cards, at least for basic functionallity (full support for the RTX features was later). It's a guess that Iray will not immediately support the 30x0 cards, but on recent precedent it's a reasonable guess.
Just a note. This comes with a huge grain of salt.
Indications so far have been that the Ryzen 4000 'Vermeer' CPUs would be launching in the fall, but a rumor popped up again today that suggests that Vermeer may be deployed on 5nm instead, with it's launch date delayed until 2021, around/after CES in January.
This rumor runs counter to AMD's press deck, which has one or more slides that indicate Zen 3 is on 7nm, so yeah huge grain of salt. Since you are indicating a November timerame for your next build, I felt it was worth mentioning in case you are considering a 'Vermeer' CPU in your next build. AMD could choose to just 'announce' Vermeer in September instead of launching it of course, but Matisse has been around for a while now. I guess we'll find out soon enough. September isn't that far away...
The 'Matisse Refresh" is impending, but AMD has refreshed CPUs before without making a big deal about it. I'm thinking specifically about the Ryzen 1600AF, which supposedly has improved (Ryzen 2600-ish) silicon under the hood and was a bit of a 'stealth' launch when it was released...
Ryzen 3xxx series CPUs are awesome either way though, and may see a further drop in price once Vermeer launches.
.. .so if Zen architecture is that efficient why would they bother doing so for the Trehadripper line?
There is good reason to think Ryzen 4k will be delayed till next year but TSMC does not appear to be ready to start mass production of 5nm, they haven't announced having done so. AMD is behind Apple in line for those wafers so if mass production doesn't start until Q3 or Q4 then it will be well after Q1 2021 that AMD will get enough wafers to start production of CPU's for full release. It would also be a fairly significant redesign to move to a different process node.
I have no idea where the rumor was but I really doubt it.
...yeah, when I had scenes pushing 7 - 8 GB I realised I needed something bigger than a 1070, and an older 12 GB Titan-X filled the bill just fine.
Never understood why they capped the 2080 Ti at 11 when back in the Maxwell days the Titan-X and Quadro 6000M both had 12 GB.and the same core count (same is true today with the RTX Titan and RTX Quadro 6000 as both have 24 GB GDDR6 as well as the same core counts all around, both support NVLink for memory pooling, and both can be switched to TCC mode even though the Titan is 2,200$ less).
https://optocrypto.com/tsmc-5nm-blasting-production-getting-ready-to-conquer-giants/
Snippet from the linked article above:
Article is dated April 19th, 2020.
Keep in mind that there are different nodes targetted at different customer usage cases however. TSMC has several 7nm, 6nm, and 5nm processes in play at the moment, which are tailored to different usage cases. Not all are in mass production yet, but TSMC is already talking about 3nm entering risk production in 2021:
https://www.phonearena.com/news/tsmc-3nm-chips-will-contain-nearly-300-million-transistors-per-square-mm_id123963
You can check TSNC's press releases. They are still in what they call risk manufacturing.
Notice how they don't source any of the claims in the "article" that is just click bait.
I just did. Try again...
https://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFoundry/technology/5nm.htm
Nothing in the TSMC press release contradicts the above news reports. Risk Production was over a year ago, with volume production kicking off in 2020. It's 2020, and Apple is still on track to release new IPhones in the fall, so...
Here's Anandtech's article that notes that TSMC expected a full volume ramp in 1H2020:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/15420/tsmc-boosts-capex-by-1-billion-expects-5n-node-to-be-major-success
Pretty much all subsequent articles have noted that full volume has commenced, and there were even a few articles about Huaweii reducing their 5nm product orders, and then TSMC cancelling them altogether to appease POTUS, with Apple promptly snagging said excess capacity. A variant of Apples A14 chip is intended for some of their upcoming desktop/laptop products, and is on the 5nm node. We probably won't see those before 2021 though.
The news media has been more focused on the new 5nm Arizona fab that is planned over the last couple of weeks of course.
Here's another article where it states that 5nm entering volume production at TSMC has been confirmed:
https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/3453/tsmc-ramps-5nm-discloses-3nm-to-pack-over-a-quarter-billion-transistors-per-square-millimeter/
The node is still 'ramping' of course, and likely won't hit full steam until Q3 2020, but yeah we are well past risk production on 5nm at this point according to various news outlets.
It has been noted that TSMC worked through COVID19 a bit faster than they anticipated as far as getting their workforce back online. Of course, the workforce does wear clean suits while working, but additional measures are prudent in the 'locker rooms' and cafeterias, and of course employees are now being tested regularly as they return to work, according to news reports.
Call it click bait if you want though. Multiple sources are pointing to TSMC AND Samsung's 5nm processes being in volume production now, but I guess we'll find out in the fall when products using said chips are scheduled to actually hit the retail channels.
Now, the 5n PLUS node isn't scheduled to enter volume production until Q4 2020 according to news reports, but that's an enhanced 5nm node, not the 'baseline' node.
Oh, I didn't expect this, but thanks for your guess Richard!
I've read similar rumors as well!
I guess Zen 2 CPUs are already not bad! If by then Zen 3 will be out, all for the better.
I've never even noticed the Ryzen CPUs refresh the other years.
Maybe it's a sign they're not going to release them now? But if a whole year has passed already, they should, or they'd basically skip a year.
So maybe 5nm is for Ryzen 5000 series?
I guess they would already destroy Intel either in single and multi-core, and Intel is just releasing the 10000 series, so I don't see many reasons for them to enter the market later with an even more powerful product.
I think they do that because Titan and Quadro cards are way more expensive, since professional work with them and have higher budgets than the average videogamer.
But 10GB of VRAM should be plenty for me! I'm already satisfied with the complexity of my scenes, and now I make them with 6GB.
And in the past I've done entire Iray comics with a GTX 1050 (2GB of VRAM) as the only system GPU, so I know how to optimize no problem! :D
I disagree.
Don't skimp on the processor. Sooner or later, it wont fit on the card.
I watched a Nvidia presentation where the user had a Threadripper 3950X (i think - the one with more cores than you can shake a stick at) and 4 x 2080ti
In his tests; the threadripper was just ahead or just behind a single 2080ti; and of course, it doesn't run out of RAM.
This was, incidentally, in Blender's Cycles.
... But I most certainly would not make decissions based on tech that doesn't yet exist.
UPDATE
Meanwhile, I got
For now I've chosen a Ryzen 5 3600, that I'll change with a Zen 3 one when that'll be possible.
The same of the first post.
Asus TUF x570, wonderful motherboard!
Easy overclock, not a single problem.
For budget reason, I went with 32GB, but 3600MHz C16. I'll be able to add two more sticks down the line.
The Fractal Design Define C is a great case, I'm satisfied with my purchase!
I'm currently using 2x140mm PWM fans as intake, and 1x120mm PWM fan as outtake.
So in the future I'll refresh the CPU, get a new PSU and change the GPUs.
Everything else can remain the same.
If you're interested, I've noticed that this upgrade has improved by around 25% the loading and scene clearing times. And it has even improved the rendering times by 10%.
Here are the tests I've made: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/411446/why-does-it-take-so-long-to-load-figures
Could you quote the exact line where that page says TSMC's 5nm node has left risk manufacturing? I seem to have gone blind and cannot find that statement.