I might be able to buy a new PC soon
Ron Knights
Posts: 1,805
We're supposed to get another Stimulus check from the Government. I could put that together with another $400-$500 next month. I should be able to get a good computer for DAZ Studio.I'm thinking maybe a budget of $1600.
Someone provided a list awhile ago, but two important parts were out of stock at Best Buy.
Motherboard: MSI B450 Tomahawk Max ATX AM4 Motherboard
Power Supply: Corsair RM (2019) 850 W 80+ Gold Power supply
That's the biggest problem with trying to build a computer from a parts list.... whether or not you can get all the parts. I'm open to suggestions.
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When you have the cash in hand ping me with the actual budget. I'll be happy to get you an actual list with parts that are in stock ASAP. This may not be the best time as GPU stocks seem to be pretty low but we'll see. I'dlove to for you to get something.
I have that exact motherboard and it's great, but I have a few issues with it.
1. It doesn't allow using the onboard graphics (if equipped) and a GPU card at the same time. It's not a huge deal, but if you wanted to connect your monitor to the onboard graphics and use the GPU card strictly for rendering, it won't do it. I don't know if it's a limitation of the Ryzen platform or just this particular board.
2. It has bright LEDs on the back of the motherboard that are on by default. There is a utility to turn them off, but it's Windows 10 only, so if you plan on using Linux or anything else, you'll be stuck with bright red LEDs. Once the case is assembled and closed, they're not so bad, but still visible.
3. It's pretty sensitive to what type of RAM is installed, so be sure to check the compatiblity list before buying.
Other than that stuff, it's great - performs better than my old i5-6600 setup.
AMD is rumored to be releasing the next gen Ryzens and Navi GPUs in September-October, so that may bring prices down. Then again they may not lower prices since Intel just announced thier 7nm products will be delayed (already set for 2022-23 release)
kenshaw011267, thanks for the offer. The timing is an unknown now. First I need to receive the next $1,200 government incentive check (I think they finally approved it). Then I need to see just how much I can take out of my own money.... I intend to cut out all non-essential spending on pizza etc. I am really motivated. If there is a problem with GPU stock, I'm willing to go with a "step down," with the understanding that I can buy a better one when stock increases.
They haven't approved anything related to that as yet. The Senate GOP has only just sorta kinda vaguely come up with an outline of what they want the next bill to be, and it's radically different and much smaller than the bill that the House passed a couple of months ago. Once it gets out of the Senate, they'll need to work with the House to come up with a compromise bill they can both live with. The stimulus is one part that's in both bills, I believe, so it should survive the committee, but it's unclear how long it will take. I wouldn't expect any payment to be received before mid-to-late August, at best, and possibly not before September.
vwrangler, yes, you're right. Oh well, I jumped the gun.
LeatherGryphon, I was stupid. I received my first Incentive Check, and blew it on DAZ Content, junk food and some clothes. My computers died soon after the money was gone. I might not get the next check till September or later. I really appreciate the extra money. To be honest, I apparently get more money from Social Security than other Seniors. I worked mostly till I was over 50 years old, then applied for Social Security Disability. When I turned 65, they changed my designation to "retired," but I still get the same amount of money. I can pay my rent, blow over $200 on cable tv & Internet, and pay some other bills. I also have a few bucks for computer stuff, etc.
No worries. Like I wrote. Just let me know when and what the budget really is. I check in here every day, or 2 at most. At some point I'm taking a vacation but that seems unlikely till there is a vaccine, and certainly till after the new year.
So that's not 'just' a laptop issue with MSI then. I have an MSI uber laptop with an Intel chip with integrated graphics that I used to use a lot, but the integrated graphics were completely locked out/deleted from the BIOS.
I've sworn off MSI ever since that laptop essentially bricked itself, but did manage to get it running again finally, I think... boots were getting longer and longer (we are talking hours), and eventually it wouldn't boot at all, a common enough problem with a number of MSI laptops at that time, but after letting it sit for over a year and then trying a bunch of different things with draining the CMOS battery over a dozen times, I was finally able to finally get into the BIOS screen successfully, long enough to change the boot settings and was able re-flash the BIOS on a second attempt (previous BIOS reflash attempt locked up again on reboot). I just don't trust it to 'hold' though, so I haven't tried putting it back to use as of yet, plus the extra VRAM on my GTX 1080 Ti in my desktop system has me spoiled Also, I need to build a 'side desk' for it as it's fairly heavy (18" laptop with dual GT 1080s and two large power bricks) and the power connector likes to unplug itself it it gets jostled, so I'd want to 'secure the plug' on the side desk so that it stays plugged in/make it a bit less likely to jostle loose That laptop is now discontinued, but the 18" screen was a nice thing to have, even though it was only 1080p, AND it had a mechanical keyboard, loved that! My main desk area is now dominated by a 32" screen, keyboard, and other stuff so no room for the laptop... But I digress...
Others do like their MSI systems, but I've given up on the brand due to this massive headache. When a $4000+ uber laptop essentially bricks itself, and then you find out that this is a 'fairly well known problem' with MSI laptops (at least back then), plus the power plug issue... well you can see why I'm skeptical... Personal choice and all that. At the vary least, I'd suggest reading the reviews and customer forums to see what issues may crop up, but then that's true of pretty much any computer hardware you may be considering.
I can say that my Asroxk X470 Mini ITX-ac desktop system with a Ryzen 2400G that I'm currently using allows me to use the onboard graphics all day long with a GTX 1080 Ti in the PCIe slot that I use for rendering only. I'd imagine that the lower end Asrock AMD boards should allow this as well.
So it sounds like you'll need to research your motherboards, and see if you can find first-hand accounts of people running the integrated graphics while using discrete graphics cards for rendering.
I'm currently keeping my eyes peeled for a Ryzen 4700G/4750G via retail channels. Most of those will be going to pre-built systems/OEM only, but it looks like at least two resellers in my area may offer them separately (pre-orders available on websites), but of course until they are actually in stock it's just wishful thinking. Also, I'd prefer Newegg just because and my budget is limited thanks to COVID, so I'm not in a hurry to upgrade right now...
Well, at least DAZ thanks you.
Hold the pitchforks.
Intel integrated graphics have always been bad. People have always had issues with them when another GPU was installed that isn't somehow unique to MSI. If you tell an engineer you want to run a monitor off them when you have a real GPU they'll just look at you funny, just as I'm doing right now. It's a MYTH, repeat MYTH, that running a monitor off the integrated graphics will free up VRAM on the other GPU. So if you've been telling people that it will please stop.
So why would anyone put engineering time into something that nonsensical? The iGPU on Intel chips is good for its hardware video encoder and that's about it once you have another GPU. The AMD onces don't even have that.
Anyway I'll be speccing the system and there are good options at the low nd that don't include any iGPU so I doubt I'll bother
Just clarifying that, for those of us that use integrated graphics alongside discrete GPUs, it's never been about freeing up VRAM (although that would be nice if it did). It's always been about not having your display responsiveness slowing to a crawl while a render is baking or in some cases when using the Iray viewport. I can speak from personal experience on this, as when I'd do renders on my MSI laptop, desktop performance was significantly more sluggish when the GPUs were doing double duty running the desktop while crunching the render, whereas on my Ryzen 2400G + 1080 Ti system I'm able to do other things while a render is baking without significant hits to desktop performance. I even do some light gaming with the integrated graphics while renders are baking, although I run said games in windowed mode so that I can keep an eye on the render progress, and I prefer turn based games so those aren't as demanding as say first person shooters for the most part (with exceptions, just not ones that I play).
Now as to whether Intel integrated graphics can be used in this matter, that's another issue, but the OP is looking at a Ryzen system, so that's a different discussion. We have had reports of people using Intel integrated graphics alongside discrete GPUs for rendering in the past on this forum though, so that may be a 'motherboard configuration/bios options available' thing, as noted some motherboard BIOSes may only allow 'either/or' instead of both. It looks like MSI may prefer 'either/or' though if the B450 locks out the integrated GPU as Kitsumo reports. Hence why I suggested looking for first-hand accounts from people that are doing the integrated + discrete GPU thing to see when it works and when it doesn't.
Also, if the OP isn't interested in CPUs with integrated graphics in the first place, then this is a moot discussion to begin with.
Wow, I let all the talk about integrated graphics vs dedicated graphics go over my head. That's pretty easy. For now I plan on using one video card. If I render something, I will leave the computer alone to do its job. I still have an HP Notebook computer for surfing the web, whatever.
kenshaw011267, don't let me interfere with your timing etc. I will likely be on the DAZ forums once or twice a day. I try not to oversaturate myself these days. The incentive check might not arrive till sometime in September. I'll hopefully know more later.
Just be patient. The fall has so many new products releasing that will be hard to keep up with everything. There will be both new GPUs and CPUs, and very good ones at that. Even if the new stuff is too expensive, the last gen stuff will see a price drop, so either way waiting should pay off. I truly believe that Turing (the 2000 series) will see big price cuts when Ampere releases, in part because Ampere is going to blow it away. At the budget you are looking at, you could get some great stuff. Though Nvidia officially ended production of Turing, so once those are gone from stores, they are gone. But there will be plenty on 2nd hand markets. Have I mentioned that both my 1080tis are off ebay? Actually all my GPUs have been off ebay over the years.
For Iray you do not need a power house CPU, just one that gets the job done handling the Daz app itself and whatever else you want to do. So thanks to Ryzen it should be easy to get a CPU in the $200 or less range that is perfectly fine. Then you can save that money for the GPU. I am thinking a 3080 will be right up your alley if rumors about it are true.
I have been waiting for this fall/winter for some time. I want to build a new machine, but I do some gaming, so I will be looking to get a little more CPU because of that. Otherwise, I wouldn't spend more than $200 on one.
Thanks for the clarification Ron! Kitsumo was just trying to be helpful, as you mentioned a motherboard he was familiar with, as was I. No worries!
Any idea what core count you might be shooting for? For Iray renders, that's not as important, but depending on how often your renders go 'CPU only' it might be a consideration if you don't mind crunching 'CPU only' renders every once in a while...
I just love seeing that Incentive Check being used on something important like DS content. I'm not being facetious because having a hobby is very important when a lot of us can't go out much these days with COVID around.
Having the DAZ site and DS to play with provides a bit of stability and distraction from outside-world problems. I'm thankful for that and it's good for our mental health.
tj_1ca9500b I understand. No problems here. Everyone has been extremely helpful. It's hard for me to be very patient. I screwed up, lost 3 computers... and it's already been a month. However, I remain somewhat insecure in my own grasp of the needed hardware... which means I'll most likely consult people here before making any purchase. fred9803, I started my artistic journey in 1999 with Poser v4. It's been a difficult journey. I often get confused and quit. This year, I decided it's time to finally try and get my dreams of making cartoons a reality. Yes, I totally agree with you!
@Ron Knights
Losing 3 computers, well that sucks! You've been doing the Daz & Poser thing for a long time! I'm a newbie by comparison (started this Daz Studio hobby of mine in 2017...)
There are a couple of threads here about which hardware to recommend, but as noted, this'll all come down to budget. Assuming that you are on the Iray bandwagon these days, you'll want to pick the Nvidia card with the most VRAM that you can afford, along with the rest of the system (CPU, power supply, etc.). If you prefer 3Delight, well then more cores good (high core count Ryzens, maybe Threadripper but I'm guessing TR will be a stretch for your budget unless you go with the older chips).
In any case, yeah once you are ready I'm sure a few people around here can give you good suggestions r.e. deals and such. COVID has really messed with the supply chain, and things are still a bit unsettled...
At a budget of $1600, assuming you hold nothing back for a monitor or keyboard or any of that right now you'd be looking at roughlt a 6c/12t CPU and a 2080 Super assuming I could find any in stock.
@outrider42 unless you want to spend a whole lot the r5 3600 is still my default CPU for most use cases
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-3600-12-Thread-Processor/dp/B07STGGQ18/ref=sr_1_1?crid=M6DAR3ZL7W17&dchild=1&keywords=ryzen+3600&qid=1595953658&sprefix=ryzen+36%2Caps%2C157&sr=8-1
and it is substantially under $200. If you're going to be doing stuff that needs more CPU you have lots of options but it gets real expensive real fast. If you do let me know I can rent you rack space way cheaper than buying. I can put you in touch with the sales team.
B450 might be out of stock because vendors are phasing it out. AMD is moving on to 600-series chipsets and it's unlikely that 400-series boards will be getting new supplies. The choices are go with another brand or pay up to B550 Tomahawk.
Actually some of Corsair's best PSU were made by Seasonic.
Now it's the worst time to buy GPU. Nvidia has ceased 2000-series production to get ready for 3080. So anyone buying GPU now is geting artificially inflated prices of old gen products due to supply cut.
I already have monitors and keyboards. Actually I use a 45" TV as a 1080p monitor. With my old eyes, that's the kind of resolution I need. Otherwise I can't read the menus, etc. OK, if it's a bad time to buy the "ideal" GPU, I could go with getting a less powerful GPU for now. It's hard to predict things since I might not have money till the end of September.
I've been using DAZ products since 1999. But in so many ways, I'm still a bumbling amateur.
I've been playing classical piano music since I was 7. 64 years ago. I can (could) play some parts of really nice music tolerably well but I never got past the bumbling amateur stage. Although I described myself, and still do, as a "frustrated amateur".
Same thing with my DAZ work. I can make half decent pictures but I never got beyond being a frustrated amateur. But it doesn't mean that it isn't still enjoyable as long as I don't have to show up on stage somewere in my underwear. 
In my opinion, getting the parts is the relatively easy part. Putting them together is the hard part. Particularly mounting the processor onto the motherboard. And other things mentioned like which type of RAM fits, and what slots do you put it in if you don't fill all the slots. I think even if you can get a better deal by buying all the pieces seperately, one must consider the cost of having somebody put them together, or the hassle of doing it yourself.
When I get around to it, my plan is to buy all the pieces and have them put together by this guy named Scott, whom I am fairly certain is Nicholas Cage posing as a computer repair guy.
I do this for a living so for me its almost automatic.
For someone who has never done it there are any number of video tutorials on youtube. All the reputable tech channels have them. Putting the CPU into the socket is scary, they are expensive but it is easy. I have never damaged one in decades of building systems.
Ram simply skips slots when you don't have enough for all of them. The motherboard manual should have all those details. The worst that happens is teh computer won't boot so you power down and change the order of the slots and try again. It's not like you'll have done any damage. I do it all the time because I'm too lazy to check the manuals.
The part that takes me the most time, and that I am starting to hate as I get older, is the front panel connectors. 4 individual wires that need to get plugged into the motherboard. I used to do it with my fingers. now I use tweezers, under a light with a magnifying lens and a certain amount of commentary and the ancestry and habits of the designers of this system.
Pretty much every other connector is labeled and is one way and clicks into place so its is very hard to mess up.
If you have plenty of room to work, proper tools, everything ready to go, enough light (a good work light is really helpful) and a plan for where you are going to put the things that can go in different spots and where the cables will run you should be able to get a build done in 2 or 3 hours. I get them done in 1 plus installing Windows and doing all the software side stuff.
kenshaw011267 you mentioned some of the things that concern me. Even though I've had cataract surgery, I still have trouble seeing the small stuff. I've lost a lot of weight, but I'm still a big guy. I tend to fill up any confined space. I haven't found a good computer manual in decades, if ever. Most of the time, they're in "pigeon English, or in Chinese," and the text is too small to read. I know the basics because I built a few computers back in the 1980s-1990s. But things have changed.
Do you have a kitchen table? Can you get it clear? That should be big enough.
Do you have some one with better vision who can come by and help? You can likely do everything but the four little wires. I am not trying to steer you into a big mess which will waste your money.
I really want you to watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkHNgGaYR0I
Don't pay any attention to what they chose but to the connectors and how they go together. That hasn't changed. If you can do that you're golden. If you can't you should buy a pre built.
I've had cataract surgery so I have to use cheap drugstore reading glasses for some close work like viewing computer monitors and reading, but for the really tiny stuff I use one of those donut shaped flourescent bulbs mounted around a big magnifying lens all mounted on an articulated arm attached to my desk/workarea. I also have a high intensity LED light mounted on a gooseneck that clamps to the computer chassis and can spotlight the nether regions of the computer's interior. I've also been known to hold a portable LED flashlight in my mouth while grubbing around inside the computer. Plus in my old age, my hands are now somewhat puffy and slow, not the nimble, lithe, slender tools they used to be when I still played piano for hours every day. And because my hands shake (just a tiny bit) these days I have to rest my hand on something and use long tweezers or needlenose pliers to manipulate jumpers and tiny plugs on the motherboard, with accuracy.
I have a solid 6 ft table that serves as my main computer desk. I'll just need to clean off the "stuff" that's on it now. kenshaw011267, I watched the video. I've seen that guy before. He's hilarious. I really like the case he worked with....I was impressed by the size of that CPU cooler, and everything else. Everything really looked sweet. But I think he is obsessed with fire/! LeatherGryphon, I guess I could buy the magnified light. I've need one for a long time. I have a few computer tool kits. I'll need to buy a anti-static wrist thing. I had one before, but never used it. My wrists were 12" around, and it was hard to fit anything on them, even watch bands. But my wrists are down to around 10" now.
FYI .. if you are needing Windows 10 Professional for your new build, PCWorld is selling 100% legit offer for 39.99 US until July 31. If you check out Carey Holzman's youtube channel he talks about it and gives the link to purchase it. It was extended an additional month from last month but yu should purchase before they run out of supply.
Edit to add link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGHTOr5Jag
I got a magnified light and use it a lot. The LED ones are very bright and last for years to decades.
A wrist strap is easy. Just look on Amazon or some place and get one that doesn't look super scammy.
Kharma, thanks for the info. Unfortunately I won't have the money in time. Kenshaw011267, I know this stuff is important but I can't help thinking I'd rather spend the money on the computer hardware itself.