When items will be removed from the shop...
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That is ok - you don't have to put anything on sale. You don't have to sell your items. It is ok.
And I don't have to buy them.
Peace!
LOL
And it's a good thing forum users are only a tiny part of the buying public ;)
This is also just an assumption. I saw this item a view days ago (less than 20 days) in my wishlist (so I guess it was available at this time). I go through my wishlist on a regular basis, so I'm pretty clear about the items on the list.
Just to sum it: No one is forced to give away their products for a discounted price. No one is forced to announce it if a product is retired (At least that wasn't my intention).
All I said is: I don't like it if items vanishing from the shop without any notice. If I'm the only one - who cares? But if more people see it like I do it's maybe something that could be considered.
The thing to take from this is there is a procedure in place and it's clear that procedure is much preferable than what is being suggested. Also keep in mind that the forum is a small part of the people that buy items, so in the long term any posting or not posting of notices still will affect that small population. PAs have posted why they do what they do to give background on that decision; but won't change that stance because people have demonstrated pretty much why vendor choose not to do certain things. You may not like it, but choosing not to get involved in hassles is preferable to multi-page threads.
I get this several pages ago ;-)
You should take it as it was intended: Just a customer feedback. You may not like customers given any feedback, but hey, that's something you must live with.
Indeed; this isn't an argument to be won, but differing points of view...
You nailed it.
I wanted a link to the Sapphire Fox page a few weeks back (no idea what that amounts to - May sometime?) and it was gone then.
Quarker's store is also gone from R'osity, so they likely either moved or retired...
Just my .02 since I'm really new.
Daz has been around for some time now, many products have entered the store (and left unfortunately)
Since I've only just recently gotten into this, all those items that are old to everyone else, are brand new to me and I may find that I need an old item for a scene.
Unless it costs the vendors a fee to have items in their store, I don't see what the big deal is with leaving them up since it is all digital. Even if they aren't selling, it's not like there's inventory to restock or replace.
I'm sure I'm not the only new member around here, I bet there's new customers at least every few days and who knows, that old product that hadn't been selling, just might send you a couple bucks every now and then. I bet there's plenty of items no longer available that I would have bought and in the short time I've been playing with Daz I've already dropped well over $1k in products. (I think I'm addicted)
Unless the product is so old it just simply does not work with the new Daz, then leave it around somewhere. If you just simply want to get out of the biz/retire, then throw the stuff in the free section since you won't make any money off it anyway :)
heh heh
my .02
But it does cost them money just to leave it in the store. I'm not privy to the exact deal each vendor gets at DAZ, but for most of the sites there are annual fees for site maintenance and service (on top of a percentage paid per sale.) More importantly, it's also a legitimate business so there are accounting costs and taxes that have to be paid for each year, etc., so if a PA's product is moving slowly, there comes a point where it may be a better financial decision to shut the whole thing down.
And then there's the simple fact that PA s are human and humans can become too ill to keep managing a business, pass on without an appointed heir or simply get tired of dealing with the business. You don't expect the exact same vendors at a flea market to keep showing up forever, and DAZ is basically a flea market in the end.
luv your tagline Cybersox13 :) chuckle every time i read it
really though, there's annual fees to list in the store?
I'd always assumed passing quality check and being accepted was all that was needed.
I can understand the rest of it, especially if there's fees involved even if you just throw up all your items for free and say "I quit"
But if it's a set fee/year or month, then there's no reason to take any off since you're paying to keep your newer stuff up anyways.
Unless their fee is dependent on how many products they have for sale, then I understand that point as well.
The cost isn't always about money. Did you ever do something that at the time you thought was really great and then a couple of years later you look at it and you see glaring flaws or short comings? It doesn't really reflect who you are now or what your capable of. Now imaging that your being told by others that they need notice before you can hide away this thing your not proud of any more. If you don't offer to let people know your going to hide it your considered thoughtless and unkind. All because you don't want people to buy something from you that you don't think it is good enough to sell any more. Since it is not about the money but about pride in your work then discounting it to sell a few more may not make you feel good about the money but rather more like your ripping people off to make a quick buck. Remember this is something you don't feel good about any more and that is why you want it removed. Giving it away free might release you from the guilt of selling an inferior product but it is still going to have your name on it and your likely still not going to feel good about people thinking that is the work your capable of.
I guess I can understand that thought process from a vendor perspective. But from a customer perspective, what a pro might consider crap, we might see as pretty cool and worth having.
That's something I was just thinking the other day, is wishing Daz had some kind of feedback/review for the items.
my .02
I'm one of those with a huge wish list. Things go on the wish list that interest me, that I think I might be able to use for one of my (at the time) current projects, or that I just want but can't afford at the moment. About once a year, I try to cut it down some, but depending on what projects are brewing, my success rate varies significantly.
Most items are waiting for that magical combination of Available Funds+Project Priority+Sale. And no, I don't keep track of how often an item misses on that second one. I probably should, because it would doubtless help me clear things out that, indeed, I don't really ever plan to get - I just haven't admitted it to myself yet.
All that said, while I certainly appreciate it when a vendor gives a heads up on removing items, and even more when they preface it with a sale, if I miss out on something because a vendor pulls it... thems the breaks. Fate/timing/whatever didn't work out for me getting that particular item, and now I have to either find a substitute or go without. Such is the way of things. For me, this is a hobby (and an expensive one at that) and it's not worth my energy to get worked up over missing out on something because I didn't move to get it in the first place.*
* there has been one exception, where timing wouldn't let me buy a character that was pulled due to very poor sales in the first week. I got kinda grumpy over that one, since it is a character type that isn't seen frequently, and one I wish to see more of. But then I calmed down realizing that my one sale probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference, and characters like that still would be seen (apparently justifiably) as a poor investment of time on the part of the artists.
I think it's safe to say Victoria 1 hasn't made DAZ any money in a long time.
But I'm glad it's still in the store. If nothing else other than historical reasons.
ruekaka, you have a valid complaint. Don't let anyone try to make you feel guilty about being a concerned customer, after all just like Kerya posted earlier.
That is ok - you don't have to put anything on sale. You don't have to sell your items. It is ok.
And I don't have to buy them.
Peace!
LOL
But in all seriousness, try contacting the vendor and see if they will sell the item to you anyways. I have had to contact vendors after seeing a product on sale like a texture expansion only to find the base item no longer available.
One thing i am pretty certain of... and Ive said this many times. Daz does not understand their customers.
For me, i wishlist the things i want... however, I have a limited budget and what i need MOST gets those dollars. Also, and i would think most customers apply this spending habit.... i *NEVER* purchase at full price unless i need something at that exact moment.
Someone mentioned about Stonemason announcing when he is about to retire something... another vendor who's products I adore does it as well... Mr RawArt. He announced late last year he was retiring a few of his products, one of his products I had on m wishlist. It was Reptrolls and Rock Trolls. He put them on sale and i immediately snatched them up along with a few other of his products. Oddly enough, they are STILL in the store. I could be wrong, but i would bet although he thought these products weren't wanted anymore, with his announcement, a few customers (including myself), got the opportunity to prove him wrong.
And as for myself, it wasnt that I was never interested in those products of his, it was simply just other products took precedence at the time.
I STILL purchase Gen3 content. I purchased Gunslinger for David a few months ago. I havent changed my content library from Gen3 as those are the figures I use primarily. So if vendors wish to disregard those sales, so be it. The ones who dont are still getting my dollars and Im thankful for them.
This is actually a great thread - human nature permeates it - economics, pride, greed, gambling, valuation, etc. - and all in the DAZ store model every day of the week - like it or not.
One angle I haven't yet seen mentioned:
I'm what one might call a "collector". I have zillion story ideas (and a zillion DAZ products... urg), some of my "brilliant" ideas are more mature than others, and when I see things that might work in one of those stories at the right price, I pick it up. If I have a real story need and can't wait, I pick it up. If it's free, or practically free, I pick it up - "you never know when you might need it..."
As I see it, the usual track record of a product lifetime is to up-price it from the start, so the real target value hits the release with a 'sale'. Great. It feels good to get a sale, early adopters get something they value right off the press, and they probably actually use it right away (budo-san?). Later, folks that buy things as they need them pay the premium, but only buy what they need with a probable return for their project. Eventually, many of us - hobbyists, dreamers-of-glory, part-timers, idiots (me), etc. - track the sales and appreciate the good-will/gamble/tease of the store's marketing efforts as-well-as the not-so-shiny aspect of older products, and ... we pay for that with the time-to-hunt, the wait, and eventually, real money.
If a vendor wants to pull an old or inferior product - that's fine. If they don't want to scratch a few more bucks out of us lurkers by having a 'going away', with a warning of that reality... I think they're losing both customers that might give them few more real dollars, and they're also losing an opportunity for some good-will and warm-fuzzy impressions. When StoneMason warned folks and pulled what he thought were a few of his older 'inferior' products last year, I thought that was cool, and I bought one of them because it was pretty unique/specific. I let the rest go, and happily buy his great new stuff. He made a few bucks, and cleaned house, and I seized an opportunity, and was glad to have had the chance.
For a vendor who chooses to forego a last-gasp sale with a warning and discount, perhaps they're not selling it with the right message (apologizing, rather than offering a final opportunity) and it becomes too much trouble for them. Fine. But when folks have stuff in their wishlists (even for years), and it goes away without warning... I personally feel jilted by DAZ, more than the PA. I indicated interest, and they indicated that they didn't really care enough to bother letting me know (email is cheap...). It may not be rational, but it's honest. IF I had one last chance to buy, even if the price was still a bit rich, I may not squander that opportunity, but I certainly don't resent the eventual disappearance of the product - at least I was warned.
A common case of this is the 30-day rendo prime-classic time-limit. Sometimes I get the item, sometimes I forget and regret, but I never blame the vendor or store for following the 30 day expiration rules they set up.
Lastly - a productive suggestion - perhaps Daz could have a 'retiring' category, maybe with a buy-more/save-more model that leverages the 'urgency' and 'bulk-buying' sales appeals, and where the PA doesn't have to confront the crowd... The product simply appears in the category for its last month, and after that... it's gone. Again, I would resent neither the vendor nor the store, and I would feel like I had a chance to reconsider my priorities and buying decisions during that period. FWIW, I am budget driven.
P.S. - To any vendor who isn't willing to take a few less of my bucks because they feel like they're undercutting their own value - while I understand the emotion (pride), I'm more amused by the lack of economic sense. Quite simply: above a certain price, you never had me as a customer - not because of any lack of quality on your part, but because a lack of need on mine. I may not need something, but I'm painfully sensitive to the quality of your work, and I love a great deal - even if I'm not sure what I'll do with it. If you don't want it, someone else does. It's not a threat - it's the marketplace in all its glory and warts.
cheers,
--m
ruekaka, you have a valid complaint. Don't let anyone try to make you feel guilty about being a concerned customer, after all just like Kerya posted earlier.
Just as he has something to discuss, the response he's gotten from vendors is just as valid. If they choose not to announce something because announcing it results in pages and pages of heated discussion pressuring them to do something they didn't want to do in the first place,, they shouldn't made to feel guilty about their decision either.
The thing I think people have yet to get in this conversation is the differeniation between something that was removed because of clearance and things that are removed because they no longer want to sell it to the public. Companies do this all the time and vendors are no different. For example, Apple discontinued making 17 inch laptops, and they gave no warning... they just stopped making them so you couldn't get a new one once the new models rolled out. Not wanting to sell an item even at clearance goes beyond anything economic, so suggestions of putting items in clearance/markdowns categories or blowout sales before they're removed wouldn't be valid solutions... but the subsequent responses so far still highlight the reasons why some items aren't announced when they are pulled. Sometimes the removal of items really isn't up for discussion, especially when items have been sitting in the store or wish lists for years.
Mindsong: thanks for the great read! :)
"Eventually, many of us - hobbyists, dreamers-of-glory, part-timers, idiots (me), etc. "
May I add me to the idiots? LOL
I would also support the idea of Daz introducing something like Renderosity's "Prime Classic" category for older items that are about to disappear from the store (or even for older items in general). I often buy Prime Classic items at this price because I know it will not last long, and that motivation to buy might be even stronger if I knew that the item was about to removed from the store completely. Thus I think that a Daz "Platinum Clearance" category at whatever becomes the normal PC item price in the future ($2.50?, $2.99?, $3.50?, $3.99?) could inspire a final round of sales for a product before it is removed by the vendor. Frequently I am only interested in one part of a particular product, perhaps an outfit where I only want the shoes or a belt or whatever, and thus am not willing to pay the full price or even any of the normal sale prices. But at $1.99 (old PC price) or $2.50 (RuntimeDNA's Real Deal price) or even $3.50 (Renderosity's Prime Club and Prime Classic price) I can be tempted to buy an item just to get one part of it and then the vendor gets one more sale that otherwise would never occur.
Not sure why they are still there....I guess i dont follow up close enough to make sure things are actually gone after i send daz an email to get rid of things.
They will likely be gone in my next round of culling though.
Not sure why they are still there....I guess i dont follow up close enough to make sure things are actually gone after i send daz an email to get rid of things.
They will likely be gone in my next round of culling though.
Oh no :( those are on my list of things to eventually get. Unfortunately I need to pay down my CC I ran up buying stuff here before I can run it up again.
Uhm ... that is comparing hardware and software ... (apples and pears?) ... *grin*
For hardware you have to build each single item to sell it - for software/virtual characters/hairs and so on you build it once and that's it.
Uhm ... that is comparing hardware and software ... (apples and pears?) ... *grin*
For hardware you have to build each single item to sell it - for software/virtual characters/hairs and so on you build it once and that's it.
Not to mention, when Apple stops selling their laptop there is still inventory in shops all over. They just can't get in new inventory once the current inventory sells out. Plus there's the reselling. You don't get that with virtual products. Once the plug is pulled, that's it.
Uhm ... that is comparing hardware and software ... (apples and pears?) ... *grin*
For hardware you have to build each single item to sell it - for software/virtual characters/hairs and so on you build it once and that's it.
No, comparing how things are sold. You don't get warnings from companies discontinuing items, so it's shouldn't be any different here.
Not to mention, when Apple stops selling their laptop there is still inventory in shops all over. They just can't get in new inventory once the current inventory sells out. Plus there's the reselling. You don't get that with virtual products. Once the plug is pulled, that's it.
Right, because apple discontinued their laptop so there's no reason to order more parts to make more. Once the inventory is gone, so is the product... with no warning about the product being discontinued.
Ehm ... do you really consider Apple's selling or other practices exemplary?
I think you're missing the big difference in this discussion as well. Vendors that don't announce the removal of items don't want them clearance priced, so this isn't a workable solution. Rendo regularly culls products into clearance because they get so many submissions and releases into the store so the housekeeping is necessary for items that don't sell. Also vendors that don't want items to go into clearance can email the admins to remove an item from the store so that it doesn't go into clearance. Unfortunately when DAZ attempted to do a clearance years ago, it was so much drama they had to back out of it, so you probably won't see low selling items announced for removal here as well.
They top consumer ratings EVERY year. You want to deal with companies with bad consumer ratings? Go book a flight somewhere and you'll see actual bad service.
... or buy a videogame from EA. ;)