Making it Easier to Rollback Daz Studio
Sevrin
Posts: 6,310
in The Commons
A frequent topic is how difficult it is for Daz's customers to obtain previous versions of DS. Whatever the user's reason, perhaps it's time Daz reversed its previous practice and make old versions of Daz Studio more easily available to users who want to revert, that is, without having to plead their case to a CSR.
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Comments
I find it odd they don't do what nearly every other software site does and provide at least some older versions
with the caveat the this version may be depreciated and not work with newer functions and features
I do agree, but there is a way the user can do a fair bit themselves.
I have DS 4.10, 4.11, 4.12 and 4.14 on my machine. Being a tiny bit wary of upgrades wrecking things I have always renamed the Daz Studio program directory just before installing the next version. So on this ocasion the Daz Studio directory became 'Daz Studio 4.12'. Then I installed DS 4.14 as if a new installation. I have found the 4.12 still runs as 4.12 from its newly re-named directory with no 4.14 features overwriting 4.12 features that I can detect. This is on a PC, not sure if Mac's would like that treatment.
Regards,
Richard.
Oh, sure. But lots of people still use older versions, for whatever reasons, and we have to specify our version of DS whenever we submit a help ticket. This would definitely be a "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK" type proposition, which would include lots of warnings. People would be assumed to know what they're getting into.
As for saving older versions, I've got a few saved, but things happen.
I wholeheartedly agree.
But also, the developers behind DAZ don't really read the forums, so...
I would really like this. I have begun to back up my old studios, but didn't always. Therfor I only have 3 different versions, not them all.
with the increasing demand of more and more GPU allowing people to use old versions without jumping through hoops of putting in tickets would be nice.
I got into the habit to manually download the general releases for Daz Studio since version 4.9.
I install the program with DIM knowing if anything goes wrong, I can easily roll back to an earlier version.
It would be, however, be great if Daz3d would have older versions for us, to fall back on, in case it is needed.
I have been only updating betas since I got burnt
my release build is still 4.11 which I had to ask for
I also wish they would. I have 4.10, but missed out on 4.11 so my options are either don't use SBH (or fur) and quite a few plugins and other items that I've paid for, or use a version that floods my GPU and consumes 4GB of VRAM just from having it open because GTX is no longer supported and leaves me with so little VRAM that I've yet to be able to optimize things enough to prevent CPU fallback.
It was like I blinked and had missed the window on 4.11 entirely, somehow. I'd like to have an installer for 4.11 and am considering asking for it, with the knowledge that it's not supported anymore, but considering they haven't even acknowledged a ticket I put in about being overcharged nearly 400% on something a week ago, I don't expect I would ever hear back from them on software they've decided we shouldn't have access to (which goes against what every other company I've worked with seems to do).
I likewise only update betas at this point.
Which version does that? I've used versions after 4.10 (including 4.14) with GTX cards and haven't noticed unusual memory usage..
Just loading the 4.12 beta (empty scene, no Iray preview) would consume around 4GB of VRAM of the 8GB available on my 1070 Ti. The 4.14 beta overwrote that and now will take anything from 2GB to 4GB empty, depending on its mood, the alignment of the planets, whether I forgot to turn Iray off last time, etc. It's related to NVIDIA's code and updates to Iray, I assume, but GTX has been a complete mess for me since 4.12. According to Richard earlier this year regarding someone else's situation, "Both of your cards are non-RTX, that does mean Iray is now passing more code across to them and so you are more likely to have the render drop to CPU," and also, "GTX has to use an extra chunk of code to mimic the RTX features, which increases memory use."
VRAM usage is through the roof with GTX over here and the really fun part about that is, the optimization tools I've bought rely on having VRAM to process textures, which ends up being an agonizingly slow process because lots of scenery that I own will obliterate the remaining 4GB long before it's finished processing so that I can try to make it fit for rendering (which I have never successfully done), and the optimization process itself drops to CPU.
I'll say that 4.14 is at least better (so far) about not spiking usage without Iray preview, which 4.12 did to me regardless of preview mode (4GB consumed from a cold start in Textured was always fun). However, I still have to be extremely cognizant of what preview mode is active when I exit Studio to avoid things being compromised from the start next time, and once I turn Iray preview on to check lighting, textures, etc. that's pretty much it. I don't pretend to understand all the technical intricacies, I just know that memory consumption (for me) has gone way, way up since 4.12 and everything I've read says that using a GTX card is the culprit due to changes in architecture, Iray, what Studio supports, and so on.
Wouldn't be such a big issue if the company made older versions of its software freely available for those with older hardware, of course.
12 was pretty awfull
Oh, agreed. I pretty much just used the beta because I missed out on 4.11 and I had hair and fur and stuff that wouldn't work in 4.10.
4.14 has been a big improvement so far in a number of ways, at least for me, even if it does still consume enough VRAM on my GTX that I can't really fit anything in there practically when it comes to rendering. I've been thinking about maybe trying some 3DL stuff until I can upgrade my card, in spite of all the $$$ I've got invested in Iray, especially since I've been feeling really nostalgic for Genesis 2 lately.
I save them when I remember. I just don't always remember :/ Best way is to rescue the DIM files (if you don't have delete after installing checked) and save in a folder with the version number. I just don't remember each time to do that, because the newer version overwrites the older version's files. Bah.
Laurie
I just tried it with a generation older GTX 970 in the 4.14 release (not beta) driver 457.09, and the Vram usage didn't even move past negligible for an empty scene. Loading a naked G8f in Iray preview mode put it up to around 1.1 GB total for the entire system. This unit is used for occasional renders too, and hasn't noticeably changed in memory usage as far as I can tell (if anything it's got smaller), without ever dropping to CPU once (3d backdrops/multiple figures).
"RTX" related issues shouldn't in theory make it use 4GB for an empty scene a normal viewing mode, as it's not Iray anything (I assume it's OpenGL) so there's no RTX anything involved. I know there have been a few weird driver releases, and maybe the betas have a few weirdnesses in. Have you tried the full release?
The best optimization process is always deleting stuff. For anything not very close, remove normal/bump (you wont even notice most the time) and basically all maps but diffuse/specular (even those can often go). People like to have subdivision level 106 things with 16k maps in every slot, but once you get a few meters away the difference is basically invisible.
Loading a single naked G8M figure in the 4.14 beta using Iray preview is taking 2.8GB for me on a GTX 1070 Ti. Happily 4.14 is better about not doing the ludicrous 4GB thing that 4.12 did for me, I would open 4.12 from the desktop and half my VRAM would be consumed in the process using a non-Iray mode, but my system is still requiring more than twice the VRAM to do the same thing in Iray that yours is. If you can tell me why that is and how to fix it, I will be eternally grateful. No sarcasm there, I really will be because this is absolutely ridiculous.
Unfortunately until I can drop crazy money on new hardware I will not be able to test the release version of 4.14, or wherever we are by then, because DAZ only allows one release and one beta and with their refusal to allow downloads of older versions I'm not willing to sacrifice the one I have. I would rather use the release version but the way things are makes it one or the other.
I've tried deleting stuff but when all the cameras I would use to determine what can be deleted entirely and what is far enough back that it'll look okay with the maps deleted (yes, that's part of my process already) are for Iray, and switching to Iray preview to check on the map issue tanks my system... Filament has at least been helpful on the geometry front, since the cameras included with many sets work with it and show something other than black cutouts. It's still silly that something I should be able to use a tool to do in one fell swoop, like remove all those maps once I decide what can afford to lose them and resize textures if they have resolution to spare, won't work because Studio wants so much VRAM to make it happen.
Maybe it's Iray. Maybe it's Studio. Maybe it's my computer. I can only go by what DAZ and their agents have said, which is that GTX cards are going to have issues from 4.12 onward. I've more or less accepted that I'll need to drop a couple thousand at least on a new system and probably do a clean installation of everything from the OS up to be able to use anything effectively. IDK I'm just exhausted and frustrated at this point.
To be honest I don't see the point in any of this. It's not exactly difficult to store a backup copy of any installers you're using and/or to make a backup copy of your setup before upgrading. My main gripe with ideas like this is that you're shifting the burden on the company which would basically increase their costs and that will eventually find its way back to their products.
You're making things sound a lot better than they are. Most companies I'm familiar with (Microsoft, Ableton, Reason Studios, Native Instruments, Visual Paradigm, Adobe, Valve, and even Pixologic) do not provide older versions of their software products. I'd even argue that most companies don't, also because you'd always run into the risk that customers may want to get support for those older versions as well, which is another thing a lot of companies tend to keep short termed.
...hmm I'm still using the 4.12.0.47 beta on both systems and I can render fairly simple scenes (1 - 2 clothed figures using only the Iray Fast Production Lights) on the assembly machine which has dual displays and a 4 GB GTX 750 Ti and not have them dump to the CPU. Of course I have no other programmes/windows open (including net browsers) at the same time. I also do not use Iray View mode as that eventually fills up VRAM and needing to shut Daz down to clear.
Is it possible to save the current version in use on your system by making copies of the folder it is copied to? I know that there are dependencies that are installed in various folders. So is it possible to gather those up to use as a reinstall option?
...I wonder if you could "re-zip" them.
Not as far as I know, but you can certainly back up the packages from DIM's Pacakge Archive (the Downloads folder, or whatever you use) - to reinstall you would place the zips back in the Downloads folder and start DIM in offline mode.
OK, so I found my Package Archive I think.I found a zip file of DAZ studio 412 Public Build, but I though I also dowloaded the latest version of DS 4.12. Is the Public Build the full version of DAZ? It seems like I have seen Pro versions in DIM also.
So if I install DS4.14 and I save the DS4.12 zip file to another folder, can I ust unzip the 4.12 and copy into the appropriate folders, if I want to roll back?
The Public Build is the full version.
To roll back, put the zip of the old version in the Package Archive folder and run DIM offline, then uninstall DS and reinstall.
Make sure you remove the zips of the old versions from the Package Archive so they don't get overwritten.
If I copy the zip and save to a new folder I can just use that saved copy to place back into the Package Archive folder if I want to roll back, correct? I mean if I have a saved copy I don't need to worry about what gets over Wriiten right?
I wish the older versions were available as well. I had all of my previous versions save on my old computer. I was a pre-Iray version installed and usually the latest version. Lost them all when my computer and all my back up hard drives were stolen. There are a few products in my library that work much better under Daz 4.6 which I no longer have access to unfortunately. It would be nice if the powers that be at Daz figured out a way we could get back access to those older versions if we wanted them.
A few years ago I was told my a mod on this forum that the reason older versions of DS are non-downloadable is because they don't have the staff to deal with tech issues for them all. This seems to me to be an entirely reasonable position seeing as DS is freeware... discouraging the use of superseded versions. It's not cost-effective for DAZ to provide tech support for software going back 15 years. So making previous versions not downloadable is a way of keeping costs down and using their staff more effectively.
But, if they have products that customers paid for that stop working in updated versions they should also have a way for customers to download the platform they invested money into with the disclaimer that older versions will not receive technical support. That way the customers did not completely waist their money on DAZ platforms that are no longer accessible. Seems only fair to me.
Correct, just make sure you save it elsewhere before downloading the new version.
Thanks Fixmypcmike,
Looks like I have backups for just about every version from DAZ 2.2 to DAZ 4.12 except for DAZ 4.11 not sure why I didn't back that one up. Most of the early ones are only 32 bit, which version did the start providing 64 bit?
Still curious, also, about why there is a DAZ Studio 4.14 Public Build +BETA+ and a version simply labled DAZ studio 4.14 (Win 64) which one is the right one to download?
Daz needs to do this, because it is selling plug-ins or has sold plug-ins that do not work with newer versions (with no disclaimers tsk tsk), not to mention the probablity of hardware compatibiltiy issues. CS has enough on their hands. They also should do it simply because it's good business ethics currently practiced by Blender, Photoshop, Safari, Firefox, and hoardes of others. More people would participate in upgrading and trying out a newer version, if they knew they knew buyers remorse (yeah I know it's free) would not haunt them forever. Sure I know how to put an x in front of the library and hunt down the zips and copy them elsewhere but should I have to play Nancy Drew with Daz, hell no.