V4 Pivot Point

marble

HI.

This is driving me nuts!

I am making a series of scenes with V4. At some point the pivot point when the whole figure is selected moved to way outside the hip - in fact metres away. So I used the joint editor to move the red and green pivots back to the hip joint and, so long as I don't apply another pose (commercial or whatever) the rotation is ok.

However, as soon as I do apply a new pose - again, commercial or freebies or self-made, the red and green pivots move metres away again. All I can assume is that some pose that I have used has reset the default pivot point to that place away from the figure. I can't find a way to zero the pivot point in the Joint Editor ... is this possible?

Incidentally, I'm using M4 in the same scenes without a problem.

jestmart

You should not have used an advance tool like joint editor to fix a simple and common problem. One of the poses moved/translated the figure by using the Hip node instead of the main node. Translate (and Rotate) on the Hip node should be used only to adjust the body slightly as needed for the pose, it should not be used to re-position a figure in the scene space.

marble

jestmart said:

You should not have used an advance tool like joint editor to fix a simple and common problem. One of the poses moved/translated the figure by using the Hip node instead of the main node. Translate (and Rotate) on the Hip node should be used only to adjust the body slightly as needed for the pose, it should not be used to re-position a figure in the scene space.

Sorry if I'm doing it wrong but I'm following advice elsewhere on this board. If I search for pivot point, etc., I find threads like this one: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/3600/ ... advising the use of the Joint Editor to fix the problem (also DeltaX15’s script: Move origin, which I can't find).

I was not using the hip node, I was using the whole V4 figure. She suddenly started rotating about a point some distance from the body. You mention it is a simple and common problem so please tell me how I can solve it? It certainly doesn't help to point out I'm doing something wrong then not explain how to correct it.

jestmart

The thread you linked to is unrelated to this. V4 (and most other figures) has two major nodes, the Body node (that is renamed for the figure) and the Hip node. The Body node is the prime node and defines the figure's point of origin. The Hip node is the first child node of the Body node and any rotation and translation done on it are in relation to the Body node. This is how a rigged figure works, each body part child node moves in relationship to its parent node. If the figure is translated using the Hip node it moves in the LOCAL space of its parent node, the Body. When you select the Body it shows the figure's true location in the WORLD space. Select the Hip and zero out any translation on the x and z axis, some translation of the y axis may be necessary for some poses.

marble

jestmart said:

The thread you linked to is unrelated to this. V4 (and most other figures) has two major nodes, the Body node (that is renamed for the figure) and the Hip node. The Body node is the prime node and defines the figure's point of origin. The Hip node is the first child node of the Body node and any rotation and translation done on it are in relation to the Body node. This is how a rigged figure works, each body part child node moves in relationship to its parent node. If the figure is translated using the Hip node it moves in the LOCAL space of its parent node, the Body. When you select the Body it shows the figure's true location in the WORLD space. Select the Hip and zero out any translation on the x and z axis, some translation of the y axis may be necessary for some poses.

I'm not sure I'm following. Are you saying that the rotation point (which I understand to be the green and red translation indicators that are visible in the Joint Editor) for the body should be outside the body? What do you think cause the rotation axis for V4 to suddenly change? As I said, I rarely use the hip to rotate the figure - I just select the root figure (V4 body) and use the x/y/z rotation parameters.

If the Body axis point is wrong, how do I correct it?

marble

Having loaded a standard V4 unposed (T-pose), and then opening the Joint Editor tool, I can see that the green translate gadget is positioned precisely at the hip joint while the red one is external to the body. I have not selected hip bone - I am talking about the whole body (V4) selected.

While I was experiencing the problem, both red and green were external to the body by some distance. I have no idea whether this is significant.

Richard Haseltine

Figures have two centres of rotation that can be moved - the body and the hip (or whatever the root bone is called). Your issue is that the figure has been moved using the hip, not the body, so the figure is away from the origin of the body - as Jetsmart says, you can fix this by zeroing the transforms on the hip and then using the body ("Victoria 4.2") to position the figure, or you can just use the hip to place the figure. Generally it's best to use the hip for adjustments (making sure the feet are on the ground, or not for a leaping pose, or for positioning the figure relative to others in a group) and to use the body to move the figure around the scene - that keeps the two functions separate - but it isn't mandatory..

marble

Richard Haseltine said:

... as Jetsmart says, you can fix this by zeroing the transforms on the hip and then using the body ("Victoria 4.2") to position the figure, or you can just use the hip to place the figure. ..

I have shut down for the night now but I'll take a look again tomorrow.

What I don't really understand is that the offset was still present after using Zero Figure Pose (in the extra parameters drop-down menu) and after applying a completely different commercial pose from a different vendor or multiple vendors. I don't know if the problem will persist when I load the scene again tomorrow. This has only been a serious issue lately and perhaps it is because I bought some new poses from that other 3D marketplace which seems to favour Poser.

Just so I have it straight though, you are both saying that to fix the problem, I should select the hip (in T-Pose, I'm guessing) and zero each rotation parameter (X-Y-Z)? Then use the whole body for rotation as I would normally do and the centre of rotation should be centred in the body again?

jestmart

For the Joint Editor tool the green widget is the start point and represents the figures origin/pivot point, the red widget is the end point and for the main node/bone its location doesn't matter much. You need to zero out any translation on the Hip joint. With the exception of the y axis to move the figure up or down as a pose may need there is no good reason to ever translate the x and z axis. Some rotation on all axis may be necessary for some poses.

Richard Haseltine

marble said:

What I don't really understand is that the offset was still present after using Zero Figure Pose (in the extra parameters drop-down menu) and after applying a completely different commercial pose from a different vendor or multiple vendors

In general poses should affect the body, only the hip - unless they are placement poses, for placing a figure at a set point in a large scene, in which case they should affect only the body. So applying a well-made (not affecting the hip translation or the body at all) pose won't undo the modifications made by the problem pose. For me Zero Figure Pose does zero the body - were you perhaps applying it to the figure which you had edited with the Joint editor?

Just so I have it straight though, you are both saying that to fix the problem, I should select the hip (in T-Pose, I'm guessing) and zero each rotation parameter (X-Y-Z)? Then use the whole body for rotation as I would normally do and the centre of rotation should be centred in the body again?

No, we are saying don't use the joint editor - just zero the translations (and perhaps the rotations) on the hip and apply them to the Body instead.