Photo realistic Multi-layer Skin

IceCrMn

We've had the 4-layer Uber PBR MDL shader for quite awhile now ( over a year ) and there doesn't seem to be any PA's using it for anything.
Could it be used to make very high quality photo-realistic skins seeing as how human skin has multiple layers?

nonesuch00

IceCrMn said:

We've had the 4-layer Uber PBR MDL shader for quite awhile now ( over a year ) and there doesn't seem to be any PA's using it for anything.
Could it be used to make very high quality photo-realistic skins seeing as how human skin has multiple layers?

That's what I'm trying for the fun of it next year but I've alot to learn to even attempt such a shader material texture set. I've not heard of any PAs working on skin material sets that sure that particular shader setup yet either.

lilweep

PAs really resting on their laurels huh

magog_a4eb71ab

IceCrMn said:

We've had the 4-layer Uber PBR MDL shader for quite awhile now ( over a year ) and there doesn't seem to be any PA's using it for anything.
Could it be used to make very high quality photo-realistic skins seeing as how human skin has multiple layers?

What do you mean? I'm not sure I understand as I'm thinking of Base Color, Translucency, Bumps/Normals, Top Coat, Thin Walled, etc., which are used quite frequently.

My minor gripe is they don't seem to do anything new or pioneering that makes their character's skin stand out from the rest. I'm not sure if its the limitations of the shaders or the content creators, but I see a number of options(such as multiple base colors, gradients, top coats) in some hair and socks products, and wonder why stuff like this isn't integrated into skin surfaces to open up more possibilities. My first guess would be more resource-intensive/demanding to render, but I don't know...

Not sure if its possible(not PA-related), but it would certainly be nice if we could get a strength gradient for bump & normal maps, if such a thing makes sense. It would make working with troublesome ones a bit easier and give greater control over them using maps like we would for Metallic Flakes Weight, Glossy Layer Weight, etc., without resorting to redoing all of the bump/normal map(s). Might be a stupid idea, but thought I would throw it out there.

IsaacNewton

IceCrMn said:

We've had the 4-layer Uber PBR MDL shader for quite awhile now ( over a year ) and there doesn't seem to be any PA's using it for anything.
Could it be used to make very high quality photo-realistic skins seeing as how human skin has multiple layers?

Sounds interesting. Could you show an example of rendered skin using this new system?

Asari

I'm not too familiar with Iray shaders so maybe it's something that doesn't work too well in Iray- I noticed that many DAZ characters don't come with a specular roughness or top coat map for skin reflectivity. The only characters that come with roughness and top coat maps are bluejaunte's characters and their skin settings are the best imho in Iray. In most render engines especially roughness settings controlled by roughness maps are key to creating believable skin. But I dunno whether this is an Iray issue.

Paintbox

Which product or shader are you referring to? I have no memory of this.

nonesuch00

Paintbox said:

Which product or shader are you referring to? I have no memory of this.

It's in the DAZ Studio Essentials UberIray section of free DAZ 3D supplied shader materials presets. I think it doesn't showup until DAZ Studio 4.11 or DAZ Studio 4.12 though.

IceCrMn

IsaacNewton said:

IceCrMn said:

We've had the 4-layer Uber PBR MDL shader for quite awhile now ( over a year ) and there doesn't seem to be any PA's using it for anything.
Could it be used to make very high quality photo-realistic skins seeing as how human skin has multiple layers?

Sounds interesting. Could you show an example of rendered skin using this new system?

I would if I had the talent to make the maps needed for such a product.Hence why I'm asking here in the Product Suggestions thread.

hfilb

Asari said:

I'm not too familiar with Iray shaders so maybe it's something that doesn't work too well in Iray- I noticed that many DAZ characters don't come with a specular roughness or top coat map for skin reflectivity. The only characters that come with roughness and top coat maps are bluejaunte's characters and their skin settings are the best imho in Iray. In most render engines especially roughness settings controlled by roughness maps are key to creating believable skin. But I dunno whether this is an Iray issue.

It's indeed sad that more roughness maps aren't included human figures; there are only a handful of good quality maps on the Daz store (Sangriart on RO has some great ones too). Luckily it's also very easy to paint a roughness map in photoshop. But roughness maps aren't that important for good skin -- a good bump will break up the specularity just as the roughness blurs it. 

Asari

hfilb said:

Asari said:

I'm not too familiar with Iray shaders so maybe it's something that doesn't work too well in Iray- I noticed that many DAZ characters don't come with a specular roughness or top coat map for skin reflectivity. The only characters that come with roughness and top coat maps are bluejaunte's characters and their skin settings are the best imho in Iray. In most render engines especially roughness settings controlled by roughness maps are key to creating believable skin. But I dunno whether this is an Iray issue.

It's indeed sad that more roughness maps aren't included human figures; there are only a handful of good quality maps on the Daz store (Sangriart on RO has some great ones too). Luckily it's also very easy to paint a roughness map in photoshop. But roughness maps aren't that important for good skin -- a good bump will break up the specularity just as the roughness blurs it. 

That's true. Height maps with sufficient tertiary micro skin details work well. I find that additional specular and coat settings really adds to the realism of the skin if you have additional specular settings, it works really well to bring out those fine details in close-ups and under certain lighting conditions.

Not every character comes with a good enough height map too, so there is that. And if the height map doesn't hold sufficient detail it also won't work in a color correct setup plugged in coat or specular nodes.

Sevrin

Asari said:

hfilb said:

Asari said:

I'm not too familiar with Iray shaders so maybe it's something that doesn't work too well in Iray- I noticed that many DAZ characters don't come with a specular roughness or top coat map for skin reflectivity. The only characters that come with roughness and top coat maps are bluejaunte's characters and their skin settings are the best imho in Iray. In most render engines especially roughness settings controlled by roughness maps are key to creating believable skin. But I dunno whether this is an Iray issue.

It's indeed sad that more roughness maps aren't included human figures; there are only a handful of good quality maps on the Daz store (Sangriart on RO has some great ones too). Luckily it's also very easy to paint a roughness map in photoshop. But roughness maps aren't that important for good skin -- a good bump will break up the specularity just as the roughness blurs it. 

 

That's true. Height maps with sufficient tertiary micro skin details work well. I find that additional specular and coat settings really adds to the realism of the skin if you have additional specular settings, it works really well to bring out those fine details in close-ups and under certain lighting conditions.

 

Not every character comes with a good enough height map too, so there is that. And if the height map doesn't hold sufficient detail it also won't work in a color correct setup plugged in coat or specular nodes.

Very few characters come with any height map at all.

Asari

Sevrin said:

Asari said:

hfilb said:

Asari said:

I'm not too familiar with Iray shaders so maybe it's something that doesn't work too well in Iray- I noticed that many DAZ characters don't come with a specular roughness or top coat map for skin reflectivity. The only characters that come with roughness and top coat maps are bluejaunte's characters and their skin settings are the best imho in Iray. In most render engines especially roughness settings controlled by roughness maps are key to creating believable skin. But I dunno whether this is an Iray issue.

It's indeed sad that more roughness maps aren't included human figures; there are only a handful of good quality maps on the Daz store (Sangriart on RO has some great ones too). Luckily it's also very easy to paint a roughness map in photoshop. But roughness maps aren't that important for good skin -- a good bump will break up the specularity just as the roughness blurs it. 

 

That's true. Height maps with sufficient tertiary micro skin details work well. I find that additional specular and coat settings really adds to the realism of the skin if you have additional specular settings, it works really well to bring out those fine details in close-ups and under certain lighting conditions.

 

Not every character comes with a good enough height map too, so there is that. And if the height map doesn't hold sufficient detail it also won't work in a color correct setup plugged in coat or specular nodes.

Very few characters come with any height map at all.

Most characters come with bump maps though, these are also considered height maps. https://cgcookie.com/articles/normal-vs-displacement-mapping-why-games-use-normals

Timotheus

That's an interesting suggestion. I have used it for terrains before, and I'm sure others have as well. I could see it having potential for the kinds of things that are normally done with LIE or geoshells, like makeup, dirt, blood, bruises, etc. I will try it out on my next character. 

Paintbox

Timotheus said:

That's an interesting suggestion. I have used it for terrains before, and I'm sure others have as well. I could see it having potential for the kinds of things that are normally done with LIE or geoshells, like makeup, dirt, blood, bruises, etc. I will try it out on my next character. 

That would be quite interesting to see!

ragamuffin57

There was in the  private change log  a 2 line reference to a pbr mdl skin shader but it never made the new beta  So something might just be  in the pipeline, It would be great if they finally came up with a proper skin shader  After all the main bulk of the sales here are of human characters

Timotheus

So I have been experimenting with the 4-Layer Uber shader on a new character I am working on. Unfortunately, the base layer of the shader doesn't really support all of the properties that make for realistic skin. So it works, but it just doesn't look as good. 

I also tried using the 4-Layer shader on a geoshell parented to G8. This also works, but the additional layers are limited by the Cutout Opacity of the base layer. That is, if you use a mask on that base level, the layers on top of it will also be restricted by that mask.

Tim