The new Mac with super fast M1 processor
cclesue
Posts: 420
in The Commons
Does anybody have any experience with this Item. It is now in the Mac Mini and one or two versions of their laptops. The claims are off the chart but can DAZ handle it?
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Daz Studio won't even open in it since the OS architecture and processor is so different; there is a thread about this elsewhere.
...and even if it did, forget Iray as Apple's latest OS no longer suports Nvidia drivers.
Is that the Mac Mini with max 16 Gb of shared RAM or the MacBook with the 13 inch screen?
I still want one.
I'm not a programmer but according to this: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3597949/everything-you-need-to-know-about-rosetta-2-on-apple-silicon-macs.html ;
alot if most of the real or imagined obstacles might be overcome. As for Nvidia drivers if I understand the possiblities of the M1 silicon such drivers will be surpassed at least speedwise. In fact because of the computing gains of the M1 I suspect NVidia will soon provide the necessary drivers.
DAZ NEEDS to take heed of the M1 development because it will make the new Macs the new standard in computing. Accord to my research the Intel CISC platform has reached the end of it's possible expansion while the M1 is a RISC platform with "unlimited" expansion possibilities.
Time for some reality.
The M1 is a slightly upscaled iphone CPU. Apple itself had to retract all the claims about it being the "fastest CPU" the day after they made them. In real world comparisons to other real world desktop silicon not to mobile chips, which is what Apple was doing when it made the "world's fastest CPU" claim, it is roughly comparable to a 3 or 4 generation old 4 core chip.
In the non Apple world this wasn't a shock and only Apple fanbois expected anything else. Apple doesn't have the sort of engineering department that could have realistically leapfrogged all of AMD and Intel in their first try and to think they went from the iPhone to Zen 3 in one generation was so laughable it is amazing that even Apple fans believed it even for the 12 hours or so the claim was on Apple's site.
As to Nvidia making nice with Apple? That seems unlikely. Apple is dumping AMD/Radeon so why should Nvidia make any attempt to make nice? What money would they make? Apple has made it clear they don't intend to have any outside silicon in their products going forward.
The M1 is standing up well against criticism that it's "just a cell phone". It's not. Yes, Apple will make their own GPU devices, and if you don't think they can do better than NVidia, then ask Intel about why AWS bought a truckload sized cube of Mac mini computers. Poser is on board, they are in beta for a full Mac port, with support going forward on a combined Windows/Mac source tree. It's a very exciting time to be in computers!
...hmm 1,700$ for an M1 Mini with 16 GB memory and 2 TB SSD and an 8 Core CPU (the way it's described, it's a quad core with "hyperhtreading") and 8 core GPU.
Oh and that's just for the "box" and power cord. Then there's the display, keyboard, mouse, printer, speakers, and Apple proprietary cables to hook everything together.
Sadly "expansion" with any Mac means having to buy an entirely new system.
Huh?
AWS bought some i7 based Mac minis not M1's. They did it mostly so devs who primarily use other platforms could test on Macs, the prices are so high I can't imagine even keeping one up for a week. I assume they will also do the same thing eventually with M1 but that isn't some sign that it is good just that there is a market for devs to have test platforms.
As to standing up to criticism? The benchmark runs exist. There was much bellyaching and there was much complaing from the Apple crowd but enough people re ran them and now there is no longer any real debate. You can check them yourself. Apple had to take down, or put an big honking asterisk beside, "fastest CPU in the world." Apple knew that wasn't true when they made the claim, they took the slide down less than a day later. Now they have to claim it's the fastest 10W CPU, like anyone cares.
It's not the Apple fans I'm hearing bellyaching from...
I don't know why this topic causes people to take things so personally... I can only think competition like this is a good thing. Every company everywhere will push the limits of their advertising language to verge on untruthful. It's scummy and leaves a foul taste, but it's business and I don't see any other major tech company playing differently.
More to the original point, I'd also be eager to see some CPU render benchmarks in the event that DAZ Studio ever runs on the new OS.
My understanding of the benchmark issue is they were running a test of single core performance. But apparently the M1 processor doesn't do hyperthreading like the PC. And the single core test was designed to run on a single thread. And the problem is the M1 chip without hyperthreading will use the whole core but a PC chip with hyperthreading will use just enough of the core to run one thread, but the core is designed to run two threads. So the test was running on a whole M1 core versus maybe 60% of the PC core. So they had to modify the test to run two threads and set the affinity to use one core in order to use the whole PC core. Then when the benchmark was using the whole PC core versus the whole M1 core, suddenly some of the PC processors were looking better than the M1 processor.
...hmm, an 8 core unthreaded M1 vs. a 16 core hyperthreading Ryzen9 rendering Iray. I would give that one to AMD.
As for those complaining about the MacMini being just the box and power cord unless you want to go the lap top route what computer isn't. If I could afford a new Mac I have all the other stuff already. When it comes to expansion Altho Apple still sells all the goodies The computer no longer needs any thing "proprietary". Apple will tell it "works best" with their stuff but the truth is if you can plug it into an Intel or other box it will work on a Mac.
And for those needing "reality" Apple has not leaped frog anything. It is the genius of Jobs and the boys recognizing the potential of the RISC base ARM architecture. True they started with the IPhone but the process has taken ten years or so with incremental improvements about once a year. Their target has been to grow up not down. They grew up to the IPad and now the Mini and MacAir and one other laptop. Next year who knows.
As to "which is faster" What ever claims were made and withdrawn in the beginning it doesn't take much digging on the Net to see which is what. Apples ARM based silicon blows away similar priced Intels and approaches even the highest priced Intel. This is not only true in speed but even more notable is the reduction in power requirements. Don't believe me there are a dozen or so YouTube videos on the new MAC Mini
As was once said "Apple leads and rest follow". So far they lead with not only their own version of the Operating system but also the hardware. They are not the only only ones producing ARM based processors so they aren't going to be the only player but I thinking within three years we will see Intel slip to a distant third. . .or fourth. Story goes Jobs wanted Intel to join with Apple at the very beginning to develop their RISC silicon but at the time Intel couldn't see a future for it. We'll see.
I am hesitant in jumping into a Mini simply because I'm not sure if it could handle DAZ 3d even with the Rosetta 2 emulator. Even though I have an Nvidia GPU I have never been able to get it to work for my DAZ renders forcing me to rely on cpu renders. Thus the question becomes will a MacMini's built in GPU (via rosetta 2) produce DAZ Studio renders be any better?
...I've constantly been upgrading my 8+ year old system as demands increased. a new memory kit here, a new drive there is a lot less expensive than a whole new system. Yes Intel MBs have their limits due to the way they change sockets (like people change socks) every time a new CPU architecture is released. The best CPU I could upgrade to was a 6 core/12 thread X3 Xeon but I am also running a Maxwell Titan X and could even move to the 3090 if I had the finances without having to build or buy an entirely new system.
Apple lost my interest they ditched the original "cheese grater" Mac Pro and went to producing notebooks, phones, and that awful "coffee can" concept that had "no user serviceable parts inside". Their iMac Pro concept was a joke as it basically was a MacPro workstation crammed inside inside a display with inadequate cooling (and no way to install any aftermarket solutions).
Basically I have not been impressed by their offerings for a while now. save for the new "cheese grater" you need to win a lotto to afford (even that one isn't as easily expandable as the original was unless you want to void the warranty)..
I'll' stick to DIY.
By better, do you mean how fast they render because renders quality should be independant of hardware used to produce the final image. It's the speed that should be of concern and even if Apple's new CPU's are amazing, they're still not going to compare to an rtx card's raw power. I recently upgraded my CPU from a 3.5GHZ 6 core i7-7800x to an 3.8Ghz 8 core 9800x for the extra cores/threads and the 44 lanes it provides. I did some tests before I switched out CPU's: Limiting the 7800x to 8 threads, I rendered a test scene and it took exactly 32 m 38.85 s. I did the same test with the 9800x with the same thread count and it barely reduced the render time by less than a minute. Upping my thread affinity to 12 threads reduced my render time to 22 minutes 31.59 seconds! Even with this reduction it still doesn't compare to my badly aging 970 which did the same test in 9 minutes and 10 seconds. I gave it a try on my 1070 and that result was 6 minutes and 23 seconds. A first generation RTX card would probably render that in 2 minutes or less from what I've seen in benchmarks and the 30XX RTX series is even more powerful.
I would honestly try to figure out why your GPU isn't rendering with iray before looking at a new system. You're losing so much potential speed and time saved using CUDA, plus saving money by getting the GPU to render.
No OS or hardware wars, please. This thread is on thin ice.
No. That isn't remotely true.
The M1 competes with quad core 7000 series chips not 10000 series chips. Similiar priced isn't a claim that can be made since Apple isn't selling individual chips.
The current Apple claim is that the M1 is the performance leader at 10W, IOW mobile chips.
And a BIG pot of money.
Laurie
Shame, they are so much fun to read!
This - all this. When I had to replace my suddenly-dead laptop a few weeks back, I looked at Apple first, since previously (from 2013-2018), I happily used a MacBook Pro.
However, w/o an NVIDIA GPU, a MacBook Pro is useless to me. I have no problems affording it (my budget cap was $3k), but I have massive problems with the lack of gear that is actually useful to me.
FYI... I *wish* I could get an MBP with an NVIDIA GPU, but I'm okay with using my new laptop (MSI G75 Leopard w/ NVIDIA RTX 2070)
Right...I removed my post;)
For a hobbiest a really fast computer is only as important as its compatibility with the software eco system in which you have invested.
For Professional CG studios this is even more important
as they have entrenched Pipeline habits often with proprietary
in house solutions based on the software eco-system in which their devs have invested.
and BTW Studios/VFX companies use render farms for commercial projects so the speed/benchmarks etc of one workstation are not a factor Studios/VFX companies consider.
Offer me the fastest Mac computer in the world
with the caveat that the exotic OS wont support Iclone/CC3,or an optional RTX based realtime pipeline or six month wait for a possibly compatible version of DAZ studio etc etc.
No thanks... I personally need to keep working
I think we could have thicker ice with a PC because there are aftermarket cooling options available.
I'm very interested in Apple Silicon-based systems. I've mentioned this in other discussions, but I bought a new Intel (i9) MacBook Pro as an intermediate system while we wait for DAZ Studio to get updated for Big Sur.
When availability/delivery times shorten, I intend to pick up a Mac mini with M1, 16 GB RAM, and 2 TB SSD. I have a 2015 Mac mini that I used to run DAZ Studio on before getting this new 16" MacBook Pro. Even without GPU accelerated Iray rendering, CPU Iray renders are about 7 to 10 times faster on the MacBook than on the Mac mini. While not in the same league as rendering with NVidia hardware, this kind of CPU rendering speed increase is quite nice from where I was to what I'm getting now.
Once DAZ Studio is running on Big Sur/Apple Silicon, I'll pick up a more robust Mac desktop (iMac?)
And I used to do software development on Apple's first co-designed ARM processors (ARMv6 - a collaboration between Apple, Acorn, and VLSI) back in the 1990s. I loved writing software for those Apple products.
The performance and efficiency look great on this first version of Apple Silicon and I'm happy that it was rolled out in the lower end Macs first. Like I said, I'm looking forward to the more powerful Apple Silicon desktop systems coming out later.
As cclesue mentioned, I'd also like to hear about the experience of others who have an M1 system while we wait for DAZ Studio compatibility. :)
Lee
I'm currently on a 2015 IMac and was about to get a Mac Pro to speed up CPU rendering, does this M1 thingy mean that is old news already?
Hi Sven, the Intel-based Macs are still extremely viable and you'll certainly see a speed up in CPU rendering with a new Mac.
As others have mentioned, with respect to M1/Apple Silicon, you'll need to examine what software will run on macOS Big Sur and if the software has a universal or native M1 version for the best performance. You'll see reduced performance while using software compiled for Intel processors (running under Rosetta 2 virtualization/emulation.)
If DAZ Studio is a primary factor, then you're best served staying with an Intel Mac running macOS Catalina (or lower). Big Sur on any flavor of Apple hardware will not allow DAZ Studio to run at this time.
Lee
Tks, much appreciated! Well currently running Sierra so Catalina or lower would not be an issue;) Will investigate some further...
Correction: Running El Capitan...my memory is not what it never was.
If you're primarily doing audio production then a Mac Pro might be a good investment, assuming an at least mid tier one is in your budget. The various Mac only audio programs aren't going to become PC anytime soon and the performance needs of that sort of software is not going to be met by the current M1 or anything likely to evolve out of the M1 in the next 4 to 5 years.
Depending on how technical you are and how comfortable you are with tearing open a $10k machine you can even buy a low end Mac Pro (just get things like the GPU's and OS drive from Apple) and upgrade the CPU, RAM etc. yourself.
You'd have to check what OS the MAC Pro's ship with though. It'd be like Apple for them to ship with the latest OS, not a knock BTW.