Skin Settings in 3Delight
kwannie
Posts: 869
I am trying to find a way to make character skin look a bit more realistic in 3Delight and I cannot seem to make any decent improvements by tweaking the skin settings. Does anybody know of any tutorials for for skin settings in 3Delight, or maybe if there is some kind of script or plugin simular to Altern8 for 3Delight. Perhaps somebody knows about 3DL characters who come with realistic skin.
In my tweaking attempts I cannot seem to get any glossiness specular to increase at all when I adjust those settings in the surfaces tab. Any info would be appreciated, Thanks
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What shader are you using in 3DL for your skin? I always use ubersurface, because I sometimes get weird glitches where AoA skin shaders do not render for me. Is there a spec map being used? What are the settings currently? It bears pointing out, too, that lighting has an immense amount to do with the appearance of skin :-)
If changes to the specular settings have little or no effect I woulld look into the lighting being used first. Especially if you use the UE2 which does not emit any specular rays whatsoever. If that's the case, bear in mind you can create additional "specular only" lights.
Outstanding, the very people I was hoping to hear from!!! OK as far as shaders go, what do I need to do in 3Delight to apply something that only effects the skin. Yes there was a specular map on a few characters but increasing the specular percentage didn't seem to budge it much. ncreasing Velvet did give a nice rim effect but did in fact make the skin look like a felt material. As far as the lighting I simply placed a spotlight in the scene. Ultimately I will be using the character with Dreamlight's Stage FX Pro which also will just have a spotlight to illuminate the character. I did see a photo of a character skin in 3Delight that had the gamma increase up to 2.0 and I tried it, but it just lightened up the color of the skin, and I still had the flat matt looking appearence, did not add any realism to the tone.
My usual settings (in Ubersurface) are 88-92% gloss, and then I change the spec to 40-80%, depending on the darkness of the spec map, or pull the map entirely and set it to about 12%. Younger skin might be a bit glossier, older skin is usually dryer. Velvet I usually set around 10-15% or so, depending on lighting, closeness of camera, etc.
To affect only the skin, select the skin categories from your surfaces menu (limbs, face, etc.) and apply the shader and changes. Obviously, lips and nails have different settings depending on makeup, polish, etc.
An ambient light might be a good idea unless you want a harsh, high-contrast look or are having many lights from different angles, or using an IBL, or whatever is appropriate to the lighting kit you're using (I use AoA lights with IBL Master as my ambient light). Softening up the shadows on your spots is also worth experimenting with.
I should add that I am not usually aiming for intensely realistic skins, as my style is more, well, stylized. If you are aiming for hyper-real, listen to Sven... he plays more with the AWE shader, which seems to be the way to go for more realistic surfaces. :-)
So, where are the shaders you are talking about usually located the only uber shader I saw was in the Shaders preset tab under Iray. So I gues in 3Delight you select the surface you want to effect in the surface tab and click on the shader same as Iray right?
Sven I saw the AWE shaders you had linked, and was wondering if that is 3Delight and for skin also?
OmUberSurface can be found in your content library/shader presets/Omnifreaker/UberSurface. And yes it's applied just like any shader.
Yup it's the same old 3DL, the main difference is you need to use scripted rendering to access the built into 3DL pathtracer. The awe shading kit and aweSurface and AWE Hair shaders are all free and can be installed through DIM so you can try them out if you like. Note that the standard 3DL shaders won't work with scripted pathtracing so everything in the scene must be converted to awe. (To make a long story short). Feel free to ask more in my awe thread if you need some guidance;)
Forgot to mention that there are base character conversion presets included in the shading kit (Gen 4 through Genesis8), as well as glass- metals- and fabric presets. The AWE Hair also has a number of presets for the most common hair types.
Sven and Misselthwaite I attached I a couple of vids that show the Stage and character I was working with. As you can see the character is strictly toon and I would like to place a more realistic character in it. I have to use 3Delight because of the renering issues with Iray. I can convert the beams to Iray and add add a charcter with Iray skin but I would only get one frame every 3 minutes. When the animation is 7000 frames you can see Iray is out of the question. This sample in the vid I attached was about 900 frames and took less than 30 minutes to render in 3DL. So this is the lighting environment I'm shooting for. I will most likely add some smoke and light flares with opacity channle tricks also.
Tks, I'll have a look later when at my main DS rig;) Meanwhile, a few tips on the skin issues: I suggest you use a linear workflow, simply meaning: In rendersettings set gamma to 2.20 and turn ON gamma correction. After that go to the surface settings and in the image editor check that the diffuse maps use a gamma value of 0 (same as manually setting gamma to 2.20), if you haven't changed them manually. Also check that all the bumps- AND specular maps are set to use a gamma value of 1. Many skin presets in the store are rather messed up and that may be the cause of flat looking skins.
Ok a few thoughts after watching your clips...nice looking stage setup, works very well! I assume that character uses a toon shader with some sort of flat shading, because it doesn't seem to react to the stage lighting at all? I think the OmUberSurface shader is the right choice if you want to replace the toon with something more realistic. Since you're doing animation and renderspeed is important, the UberSurface renders much faster than the AoA SS shader. You might even want to consider using just the default shader to speed up rendering even more. It does not have SS but it has a basic scatter effect if you set the lighting model to skin and is very robust. If your spotlights are set to illuminate and not diffuse only they should give enough specular light to make skin look good. If you want to increase realism you'd probably also want to add some global illumination with ambient occlusion at low levels, and instead of using velvet (which I don't like much, basically a hack just like mapped reflections) use some sort of rimlight and set up the skinsurface with fresnel instead. The OmUberSurface has it. And if the skin uses ambient, just get rid of it quickly:)) It's not the way to go for added realism. Good luck with your project, it looks very promising! Let us know if you need further assistance!
Regarding aweSurface...I don't think it's the best alternative for doing animation. Granted it's much faster than IRay on CPU but it can't yet compete speedwise with GPU rendering.
I added a simple tutorial to my tips thread on how to set up skin for the ds default shader here, in case you want to use it.
Oh Thank you so much Sven I'm getting some of the results I was hoping for now thanks to you and Misselthwaite. I found out though, not all 3DL characters and skins are created equal. I tried to tweak a G2 character and skin and it looked OK but then I thought why not try a 3DL G3 character and, whewww...it took about 2 minute to render one frame with the stage I showed you earlier. Finally I tried V5 Tori and the scene stated rendering like lightning. I mean about 1 frame per second. That was with hair and full stage included. Now I need to find which other 3DL skins work as good as the Tori character. I'll post another clip tomorrow. It looks really good, which really changed my opinion about 3DL. Thank you so much for the help. Now I will be on the hunt for updated G1 morphs and tweaks such as bends and joint morphs, and all the skins I can get to render fast and make look realistic.
Very welcome, glad to be able to help;)
Hmm, and did you convert the G3 skin to ds default? Or was it set up for the AoA SS shader? The only reason I can think of is Sub Surface settings.
Oh that's fast:)) You must have a very good CPU. I couldn't match that on my 2015 i5 processor IMac.
Looking forward to seeing your progress:)
No I didn't apply any shaders to the G3 figur 3DL, I gues I did not pay close attention to that step in your tutorial. When you say the ds default are you talking about the the dzDefault in the folder named DS Defaults in the Shader Presets folder? I mean do I just click on the surface I want on G3 then apply the dzDefalt shader? Do you think that a G3 or G8 figure with 3Delight material will render as fast as the G1 Figure?
I have attached another clip of the FX Pro video with the G1 figure this time. The skin looks much better with a few tweaks but I still wish I could get the 3DL skin to look more realistic. I had to reduce the quality of the vid to make it fit in attachment but I the put some screen shots in so you could see how the G1 skin looks. Any suggestions how to tweak to make look more natural tone?
I also place a couple of environment pics that I was wonder if you could tell me if they could be improved with better 3DL shaders. Thanks for the info!!!
Yes!
I suggest you select the character and all its surfaces, then double click the shader icon to apply it, as I mentioned in the tutorial.
I can't see why not. The later figures infact have a lower polycount so in theory should render a bit faster.
Well, turning on raytraced shadows for all the lights would no doubt be a step in the right direction:) Select the light, go to parameters/light and set shadowtype to raytraced. Adjust shadow softness to your liking. Softer shadows require more samples (rendersettings/sampling/shadowsamples) to get rid of noise. Also note that you need to set light falloff to 2 for a physically correct behaviour. 1 equals linear falloff and 0 is no falloff. After that add zeroes to light intensity scale (10000+) until you have a proper intensity. I included physically correctly set up spotlights in the G3F scene. i also included the UE2 set up for ambient occlusion to add global illumination. (Just delete the environment sphere and remove/replace the Ruins HDRI from the light color slot). With the standard 3DL renderer (unless you use the pathtracer with scripted rendering) you need to add ambient (GI) light because by default there is no bouncelight. This will also add to realism without major hits on rendertimes, if set up properly. You don't have to use the UE2, there are other ways, as Misselthwaite pointed out. You can use the IBL master or get the AoA advanced lights and use the AoA ambient light, which renders fast.
Regarding your skin, I suggested the default shader because you do animation. It has no volumetric subsurface scattering, only a simple scatter effect, hence the fast rendering. If you need more realism, follow Missethwaite's advice and use the OmUberSurface that has many more features to play with, SSS, fresnel, blurred reflections, dual specular lobes for more realistic specular highlights...
For the default shader in your examples, maybe reduce glossiness and/or specular strength a tad, I find her a bit too shiny, but that's a matter of personal taste. Play with tinting the diffuse color or the scatter color and amount (thickness) if you want to change the skin tone.
Sure they can! But first set up your lights properly before you start fiddling with those surfaces!
For what it's worth, here's two renders of G1 Stalker Girl using the OmUberSurface. The lighting is two DS standard spotlights and UberEnvironment2 (UE2) set to the ambient occlusion mode. (Find it in your content library/light presets/Omnifreaker). I also used OmUberSurface on the floor plane to demonstrate the blurred reflections, 3% blur. The default shader is only capable of 100% sharp reflections which is not very realistic, unless we talk mirrors and chrome. I set up the skin to use both specular 1 and specular 2 (with specular strength maps) to create a more complex specular highlight. I also used about 85% raytraced reflection strength with a 100% blur to make the skin interact with the environment. And also used fresnel with a high falloff and a fresnel sharpness of about 80% if I remember correctly. The diffuse maps are loaded into subsurface color, 90% diffuse strength and 100% SS strength. The first render has SS color set to an almost pure white, the second I tinted carefully to show the effect it has on the skin. This setup won't render as fast as the default shader but shouldn't be too bad. It's up to you how far you want to take it;) My settings can be discussed for sure, I really haven't used the standard renderer and shaders for quite some time, so am a bit rusty;) Maybe Misselthwaite could shed some light here?
Umm... I really don't aim for realism in that way. I usually have a result in mind, and then abuse the system until it gives me what I want. I only just rediscovered that I have the Ubersurface2, which claims to give better subsurface... I haven't tried it yet, though. I never use UE, because it renders so much slower than my usual set up, and I have a thing for hitting a comfort level and then hanging out until a pressing issue forces me out into the wilds of exploration... which always seems to end with renders I can't live long enough to have complete ;-)
I also like to abuse the system but it rarely gives me what I had in mind when starting the project. Ocasionally it comes up with something cool and I just hit render real fast;)
Haha, yeah I've seen a couple of your explorations, always enjoy them!
@kwannie
Do note that you can use the built in motion blur, found in the render settings tab/advanced settings. If you use a sample setting of 2-4 it shouldn't slow down rendering too much. Try an amount of 10-30% as a starting point. Just remember to turn it off if you do stills with static scenes that have no keyframes, leaving it on can cause artefacts like transparent figures;)
Sven I used your Scene that you atached in your tutorial and it looks amazing. I keep having and issue in 3DL when I used my own set up and now with yours too. When I zoom out a bit and render I am suddenly seeing the seams where the the legs and the torso meet, showing up in the render. Also I was wondering,because with your setup I did get get a little more increase in the time it takes to render, are there any of the surface maps I can eliminate and retain I decent look to to the skin, to speed up rendering a bit?
I'm also curious about what you meant about doing something with the lights in the disco scene I sent a picture of, and what type of 3DL shaders are used on Architecture and props. Thank you!!
Hmm...check your rendersettings, what is the shading rate set to? The higher you set it the faster it will render but going too high will cause all kinds of artifacts and loss of detail. I would use 0.5 to retain good quality, in any case no more than 1. Another possibility would be if the skinsurfaces use different gamma settings.
If you're shooting from a distance you could ditch the bumpmaps. Not sure if that would make a significant difference though. I used very soft shadows in the example. IIRC I removed the limits for shadow softness and set it to like 1000%. Maybe use something more sensitive like 20-50% (or even less) and in rendersettings reduce shadow samples to much less than I used, like 2 or 4. If you get grainy shadows you need to either reduce softness more or add shadow samples. Also note that the hair is always a culprit. Keep it at base resolution if possible. And I recommend using the AoA spotlights instead of the DS standard ones. They are part of the AoA advanced lights bundle from the DAZ store. Get them if you are serious about doing animation in 3Delight! You can set them up to use an alternative (lower) shadow samples value for hair to speed up rendering.
As I said, I can't see any actual shadows being cast by the lights you use so I assumed you haven't turned on raytraced shadows. That makes everything look flat and dull. Use the default shader, it's the fastest option. If that's not good enough go for the OmUberSurface. If you use the default shader delete the reflection maps to get true raytraced reflections. Use the ambient channel to simulate light glow on spots, light panels and similar, you get the drift. Using ambient strength will not make the surface actually emit light but will appear to glow and show up in reflections. Of course you can find many 3DL shaders and shader presets in the store if you want to totally remake the set, but using the default shader and adjusting stuff like specular strength, glossiness, ambient and reflection strength will take you a long way in my opinion. As I also said it would be wise to have the lighting set up the way you want first, then tweaking the surfaces to your liking, otherwise it's pretty much a guessing game;)
Do realize that you need to find a compromise that works for you. The more raytracing you add the longer it will take to render. Everything adds up;)
Sven I noticed that even just using your setup ( character, lights, settings) without changing anything and opening the FX Pro environment I'm still geting the seams showing up to a slight degree when I zoom out a ways. I don't see the seams when I'm close up. I didn't ask before but, do you know how much effect a higher end video card with more vram, more system ram and a faster CPU effect rendering in 3Delight? My system has an I7 8700, 3.7GHZ, 32GB ram and an GTX 1080. Would an RTX card effect 3Delight? what system factors would improve 3Delight performance?
Ok, maybe the textures are not that good? Try some other skin textures.
3Delight only uses the CPU for rendering so a new card wouldn't change anything. The more cores your processor has the faster it will be. More RAM will let you load more complex scenes, larger texture maps etc but won't speed up the rendering process.
I attached another sample of a FX Pro MMD conversion using the set up from your tutorial. I'm thinking I can just go with a single light from the front off to the side a bit. You think the rim and key are need for this type of scene? I noticed that the number of light does have a big impact on render time in 3DL.
A single light could work. Note that if there are areas in the scene that don't get any light at all that will also slow down the rendering process. Suggestion: Add the UberEnvironment2, set lighting mode to ambient (no raytracing). Use a dark grey light color (or tint it to match the scene if you prefer that). Just enought to lighten up the darkest areas a bit. This will probably speed up rendering. Rimlight or not? Only you can answer that. I would probably use one from each side. If you keep the light level low enough you may get away with turning off shadows for them. Or experiment with setting them to specular only.