Animators - before the pending QT-libraries update...
mindsong
Posts: 1,712
Yo DS 4.x animators,
(formally titled: "Animators - before the 5.x release..."
then: "Animators - before a (someday prolly gonna happen) 5.x release...")
(eta: I have NO idea if a 5.x release is imminent! No such roadmap or back-channel of information is available to the likes of me. A major QT interface/toolkit library update *is* mentioned a *lot* in the release notes, so that may be that little light I see in the tunnel... That said, the sentiments and feeling in my gut stands, as do the implications of any Major version release update - YMMV)
It's clear and rational to expect that a DS 5.x version is right someday on the release horizon. In many ways this might be exciting and open new opportunities in this rapidly moving industry, etc.
But change necessarily implies costs - in behaviors and compatibility. As we know that many of our favorite plugins will likely not (or cannot) be updated to work in a DS 5.x, the impact of this upgrade on our toolsuites, wallets, and workflows will certainly be felt.
In the spirit of pragmatism, I would guess that whatever state the last DS4.x version is when a DS5.x is released, it will be the last DS4.x version we'll see.
Given that a practical side-effect of major upgrades is compatibility (plugins/scripting), and given that any efficient business cannot afford to back-port/support fixes to their older products, when thhey can barely keep up with the external changes in their own industry (e.g. IRAY/Windows updates that break their apis), let alone their own bugs, etc. ...
If you/we want the chance of a useable DS 4.x final for animation, it might be wise to offer your free Q/A services on this near-final 4.x beta.
My guess is that it's likely the last chance to identify the key bugs that remain in the animation tools - in a version that will also run with your current plugin and script investment - let alone your well-worn workflows.
Bottom line: If you don't take a few minutes to load-up these last 4.x beta versions, and test your animation workflow (keyframe copying, aniblock to timeline/xfers, pose-preset saves, etc.), it's likely that what DS 4.x looks like the day 5.x is released is the latest you will have in the 4.x family and your plugin/tool investment.
As an avid user of Bryce and Carrara, I can guess how the maintenance of the older software version will go here - for practical reasons alone - so let history be your guide, as: what is, is.
So, in your own better immediate and long-term interests, consider loading up the latest DS 4.x beta, and run through a few animation scenarios and see if everything that you expect to work, actually works... and let the devs know if you have any new or burning issues you'd like addressed before this version gets moth-balled. I have no reason to believe they aren't working hard to produce the best final DS4.x version possible, but plenty of reasons to assume it'll be the last 4.x version, much as I'd like to be incorrect there.
(eta: and ... I don't do free Q/A, but any feedback we give to the developers from our usage experiences will certainly be useful to their efforts)
2c,
--ms
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Comments
Your crystal ball tell you any solid info about a potential release? I have not seen anything indicating a 5.0 version. Bryce and Cararra are not good indicators as they were adopted by previous owners. DS is still the flagship. Best advice is to keep copies of the installers. Many plugins will not be updated as their developers are long gone and many more will probably pass before a 5.0 version is out. We've seen 5.0 predictions for a long time now. Kind of like the big earthquake in California.
indeed - maybe I'm conflating the new QT library updates with a major version release, but the winds of 'bigger-changes-than-usual' change feel imminent when browsing the release notes. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Given that there is no published DS roadmap to plan around, a defensive posture is arguably prudent.
As I'm hardly rah rah daz these days, it seems a good idea for us to get any feedback into their development mill sooner rather than later, given the big under-the-hood changes going on - and it certainly can't hurt if anyone has got some spare cyles to dedicate to doing some DS Q/A.
I greatly appreciate the reality of 'moving' forward in the development cycles of life, but also appreciate the costs of such updates on operational systems and stability. an unavoidable dance.
eta:
I think the inspiration for the original post is that most of the animators I know of are tagging the beta by a few releases because we can't get our work done in the current versions due to 'mis-behaving' functions. Such a posture, while practical in getting our work done, prevents us from identifying the problems in the updates. Realizing this, the above post may make a bit more sense when that particular update that forces our hand occurs, we'll be effectively stuck at our working version until we can afford to re-tool and catch up with our tools and workflows.
To the idea that Bryce and Carrara are techno-orphans, I would mention that *major* updates for both were released well-after they were acquired by DAZ Inc., and both have since stagnated for years. I'm sure the reasons are rational, just as the results are.
(you make good point re: V5.x - i'll edit the opening post with your sentiments in mind.)
best,
--ms
I read the QT updates but it seemed like nothing groundbreaking as they are being done low key. The flurry of recent tutes probably wouldn't have been released if big changes were coming. But I agree that folks should be prepared.
their DAZ studio development is just ensuring it remains only an exporter to other softwares for me for DAZ content.
I have been trying to use it as a rendering software but it's proving too frustrating, everytime they do something that could be useful such as adding Filament, they drop the ball on something else.
They need to warn people support for hardware is going to be ceased before doing so too.
I don't know when the 9## series will be dropped and expect one update I will encounter a nasty surprise, 7## quickly followed 6## with no prior warning so my spare card I was going to try to mount again in my other computer is already junk.
To my experience, the QT update is going to require a serious re-wiring of many the core DS innards, but given the amount of time being allocated, the 'big jump' will likely be fairly seamless for the core and plugins that DAZ *can* control, but a total wildcard for the plugins that they don't. Perhaps they are writing a shim layer to ensure compatibility where possible.
Maybe my direct experience with such upgrades is triggering my 'spidey sense' on this.
That said, I truly hope it's all a non-issue - but echo your sentiment to 'be prepared'.
Thanks for the original feedback - less stress is a good thing.
--ms
and yes I am making sure I keep 4.11 backed up, the last stable build of DAZ studio for me for iray
at least Nvidia has legacy drivers
wait, I saw in the beta thread that we had recently lost the GTX-6xx support, but is the GTX-7xx family obsolete now too? I was about to update my NV driver to the listed DS minimum of 451.48 (I'm at 445.87 w DS4.12).
What's the last GTX-7xx capable DS version? (my entire thread may be moot to my own situation, as my last 'working' DS version may have already come and gone! lol).
Seriously - what's the latest in the NV hardware family that the current DS version(s) w/ IRAY support will operate? Is there a way to tell from anything the DS-devs publish?
tnx,
--ms
Ditto - my current 'operational' system is also 4.11 and I have the relevant IRAY installers tucked away as well. I had decent experiences with 4.12.0.86 I think, or the beta just before that, but there were also some changes that halted my projects, so back to 4.11 it was.
I'm finding the recent 'progress' too disruptive for my needs, so I'm treating DS as my "DAZ Inc. Content Exporter Tool" - DICET (tm), in order to make any progress on my stuff.
--ms
The release notes do include details of driver/supported platform changes - as do the entries in the separate thread on Iray updates.
So there's a published 'recommended and minimum required hardware/driver' stanza available for each public and beta release?
eta: I've always had to dig back in the notes to find those sorts of changes - as such requirements might be mentioned say 5 releases back, and I've never seen any mention of hardware requirements, assuming that if NVidia lists the driver for my card specs, that it must still have some support.
--ms
Its pure speculation on my part. But if history has taught us from the last time daz upgraded the qt and SDK which was about 10 years ago. I would imagine if its anything like when they upgraded from daz 3 to daz 4 That most of the genesis content will still work with out any more issues then thay have now.. ( can't say about generation3 or 4 though). & I would say the plugins & scripts will all be broken & you will properly need to buy a whole lot of converter scripts for this and that.
On the positive side. If daz is changing the SDK & up dating the QT software , then it should be like last time,. . Because like the daz3 to daz 4 upgrade there will be no reason why should not be able to use both versions, they should be there own folders(Hoepfully) I still use my Daz3a quite often for thing I have that won't run in daz 4. But i still use daz 4 as my main 3d app . The new daz 5 may require a new build of assets. which I can do ovr the next 10 years. but my biggest fear will be the hardware requirements . If i have to morgage my house to have super computer to run daz stutio. then I will properly be looking for a new 3d platform like blender. or go back to poser. I already been spending a lot of time watching blender how-to videos and been learning a new few things about the improved UI. I have not bought anything for blender yet. I have been book marking them just incase though .
yeah my GTX 780 is no longer supported so I never bothered putting it back in my Win7 box after moving the 980ti to the Win10, that machine handles Filament quite well and the card overheats it so not just D|S influenced my decision.
I only use the beta for the latest
that machine actually has D|S4.7 on it! for release build as iray a waste of time on it and I can use some 3Delight scripts later versions don't support
and yes Richard, one now needs to read the release notes very carefully before installing any DAZ studio updates!
doesn't your 780 work in DS4.11, or is it the betas that are out-running your (our) hardware? I believe my older 760 render hosts ran up to DS4.12.x and maybe even later (I use CPU when my scenes are (usually) too big), so it's a blur of whether or not I actually tested the 760s w anything more recent.
I know my NV drivers (445.87) haven't been updated so as to work with the latest, and was about to update to 451.x to try 4.15, etc. Now I'm not sure I should mess with it.
I suppose I can still learn a bit about the animation tools in the betas if I ignore the NV card...
hmm,
--ms
it would work for 4.11 but at this point it is not installed in my rig as I had blackscreen issues with any card after shorting my PCIE lane with a metal air nozzle I lost.
I was going to take it to the shop and have it looked at but this development makes that a waste of money as it as the end of the road for future DAZ studio use now anyway
I would be better off waiting until Bitcoin tanks and buy a better card for my Win10 then putting my 980ti back in the Win7 rig
I am more concerned GTX 9## support will be dropped soon too
Scripts may or may not break with a version update - the engine actually chnaged from DS 2 to DS 3, but many scripts still worked through auto-conversion (some that took syntactical short-cuts did fail badly). DS 3 to 4 didn't involve engine chnages and many scripts did carry over, especially if they were cautions (checking that an object inherited an object type rather than was an object type, for example)
I had to go back through and look to see which scripts and plugins that were effected.. There were a lot of mine did go the way of the Dodo I was not complaining about the upgrade. All things must change. But most third party plugins and scripts such as Particle FX completely stop working , and never got updated. Texture Atlas was broke until it got a update ,Dimmision-theory had to update her Texture animator that when She released Animated Textures pro for ds3 & ds4. same for send in the clones , Dreamlight IDL skydomes never worked properly once daz moved from 3 to 4 even if you tried to use them with 3dl. today they still are not right dreamlight Stage FX had to be reworked so it would load and so did his movie maker plugin
The Animator Plugin lost its use for adding ds3 scripts to the timeline even though everything is still working today the scripts panel part.is broke.
Most of my poser compatibility was lost. you needed to have DSON to use Genesis with my poser 7 and up Alyson and Miki and a lot of other poser characters can not be loaded into daz 4 but can be in daz 3 and whats even worst no bridge was ever made for daz to poser.
I have a few light 3dl rigs that would not transfer over to daz 4. they stop loading. in fact a lot of my file formats that were .daz or ds had stop working. So that is is why I still kept daz 3a .. Mostly for the particle FX plugin which can do Bullet case ejections Beautiful Animated dragon fire. super awesome jet and rocket tail fire, gun muzzle flash. etc.
Mimic pro is pretty much useless.and hit or miss if it works in daz 4.12.0.,86 depending on the character you use.
Though you are right not all content was broken. V4/M4 still worked. Daz did offer a 1 click script for 3dl to iray. & people did develop new tools. But useful 3rd party scripts and plugins seem most effected and most of them never got updated. So I always tell people to keep a back up of you latest Daz Studio and plugins
Edit. I also want to recommend that people should download the 32, & 64 byte versions of daz4.5 SDK kit now before it changes for back up in case you need to later because it still comes with the installer and all the daz 4.5 plus versions are all based of this SDK so once it changes.
I use AoA lights for example in 4.7 those don't work right in later builds, I can exclude stuff by property.
The other script I use there is one we cannot discuss on this forum from Renderosity
Feet not moving! If there is anything for animation that I dream of happening in Daz, this is it. I just animated 16 keyframes of my character standing there. I never once moved her right foot but it's still moving up and down. I even went and tried to set a keyframe at frame one and the last frame and changing the interpolation to constant and that didn't change anything. My free trial of Maya just ended yesterday so I can't animate it there and port it back into Daz without buying it and I don't have the cash for that right now.
Otherwise, I would LOVE to be able to change the timeline to show timecode instead of frames (if there is a way, please let me know as I've googled the heck out of it and found nothing). I animate based off of reference video, it would be so much easier to match timecode instead of counting frames.
Looking at mjcasuals prolific script collection, it looks like the DS1/2 -> DS3 was a major scripting API change, but most of his DS3/4 scripts have only one version - confirming your speculation.
The release notes indicate a lot of working going into scripting updates and additions in preparation for the QT update, which bodes well for script writers and users.
I think it's safe to assume that the QT-5 (compiled libraries) update will be far less forgiving, based on the nature and extensiveness of the changes - simply the cost of the upgrade, with benefits that allow DS to move forward.
Again, progress is what it is, but managing our stability in this perpetual catch-up game will only be possible if we err-on-the conservative, given that there's absolutely no 'writing on the wall' with which to plan your DAZ future.
I only recommend that users act accordingly, and trust in DAZ's development history to best plot their respective futures. Ignoring DAZ economics will most certainly impact said user's.
--ms