Old Surge Protector Damaging External Hard Drives?
OrionPax09
Posts: 419
Here's the thing. A friend of mine, a person that happened to be the one that introduced me to DAZ3D, is seriously considering giving up on it entirely. The reason for this because the external hard drives he keeps his data on generally don't enjoy long lives, burning out in a year or less. The fact that he's currently stressed out doesn't help.
Now I've talked to the guy, and...from what I've learned, he's had all of his HDs plugged into a really old surge protector. One that he got back in 1998.
Now I'm sure I already know the answer, but I figured, what the heck? I might as well get some feedback from people who've probably dealt with external hard drive burnout. Especially since I use modern surge protectors and have never had any of my gear croak on me. But could this old surge protector be what's killing his HDs off? I mean, not just not protecting his equipment, but actually damaging it?
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If he feeds the external drives from a different source than the computer, that's already dubious and from my own experience external drives should get their power from the computer to make sure there is no differencies in voltage levels. Manufacturer of the disk inside the enclosures does also make a difference especially when talking about drives with spinning disks (traditional HD:s).
Personally I trust only Seagate and Samsung when it comes to HD:s
I'm trying to figure how he has some hard drives connected to a wall outlet and surge protector. I'm guessing it's one of those USB to SATA things, where you plug AC from the wall outlet to a surge protector/power strip, and then plug a USB 5v adapter into the surge protector and it powers the hard drives?
Anyway, I think it's a good guess that a 1998 surge protector isn't protecting much. Assuming it's a surge protector and not just a power strip. If it's a surge protector, on the inside is probably just an MOV, which is kind of a variable resistor that just sits there, and if the AC voltage coming in gets too high it shunts the surge thru the MOV so it doesn't enter the device. But I wouldn't be surprised if that just opened up long ago. Or if it shorted out he'd know it because the breaker in his basement would trip and turn off the lights. If it's open, you'd never know it, and it would just stop protecting the device. If indeed it was protecting anything in the first place (those things are notorious for being fairly ineffective).
So yeah, in general a surge protector probably isn't going to cause damage. Does he live in a high lightning area, or an area with lots of power outages?
I'm wondering if the issue is somewhere else, unrelated to the surge protector. Hard to guess without knowing more about his configuration.
well it also depends on the electrical state of his house and the grid, I have wiring issues I cannot afford to investigate and fix so use a UPS that beeps everytime my fridge cuts in and sometimes actually fails altogether, no surge protection in the world is going to help me, an electrician could if I could afford one,
Some old surge protectors worked by sacrificing themselves. Eventually they quit working with no indication that they were no longer workimg.
My first question would be to make sure the drive itself is ruined and not the case it's in. This turned out to be so with the only drive I ever had a problem with. I took it out of the case, tried it in another case, and the drive itself worked fine.
It's my understanding that these external drives tend to come in plastic form factors and don't vent heat particularly well. Some do have fans, but even then, I don't think they were intended to run constantly and can still get too hot, which is really bad for hard disks of all kinds.
It's also my understanding that clean power is critical for the life of old mechanical drives, because regular fluxuations can cause damage to either the drive motors or to the disks themselves. So, if your friend has disks that aren't protected from brown-outs or intermittent power outtages during storms and that disk runs constantly when they are using the computer, then that could explain the short lifespans.
I have all of my equipment except for a spare monitor plugged into a UPS (I have one for each computer and another for everything else). The more recent UPSs are supposed to offer clean signwave signals, which is supposed to help with life-expentancy of electronic components. These are a bit more expensive than the ones that don't make the claims, but they aren't truly regulated for pure signwaves--some sort of digital approxmation--so, I'm not completely sure that isn't just a gimmick...but, I prefer safe to sorry.
Before I purchased my first UPS with support through brownouts, I had several disks go bad in relatively short oder. I can't say that I haven't had any disks go bad since, but it's not nearly as frequent as those first couple of years and I suspect at least two recent failures were the result of cramming too many into a small enclosure without adequate airflow. My house is also from the 40s, so the wiring was crap before I had it entirely rewired a few years back, so that certainly didn't help.
Depends on the drives though, not all run off USB power alone, especially not those that run laptop drives.
I have some (older) mains powered external drives that use the larger desktop drives.
No, I'm talking about a docking station (I think that's what they call it...). I've got a couple of them. Made by Thermaltake or Orico, etc. Basically a box with some slots that fit a desktop hard drive, and you drop the HDD in and it connects to the SATA connector. The box has a USB connector to connect SATA to the PC, and a separate power connector so you can connect a wall adapter to power it. So I'm assuming the OP's friend has something like this, and the wall adapter is plugged into the power strip/surge protector.
FWIW, here's what I'm assuming the OP is talking about. You drop the HDD into the slot, it's open to the air (others are in horizontal enclosures), and hook up a wall adapter to power it. There's also a USB cable for data transfer to the PC's USB input.
If the OP's friend is using wall power I assume he's using something along these lines. Even if it's firewire or whatever...
External USB harddrives have been around for years, some are powered through the USB connection and some have their own transformers.
As touched on in previous posts, all sorts of variables can affect spinning HD life.
First and obvious reply is get rid of that old surge suppressor! At best it isn't suppressing anything. I give a surge suppressor 5 years, tops. They're cheap, replace them when old.
Other questions:
Assuming the HDs are externally powered via the wall, are they on the same house circuit as the rest of the computer system? Poorly wired or ancient wiring can have significant problems with voltage level and stability, and ground-loops or other grounding issues.
Is the power in the region stable? If not then cheap voltage suppressors are useful only a few times before they die. A good UPS is a better bet than a power suppressor.
Is the computer equipment properly maintained, dust free, well ventilated? Heat is a killer for HDs.
How heavily are the HDs used? Are they being slammed every day for hours and hours?
What level of quality drives are they? Cheap drives give up easily. Run fast from no-name brands. When shopping, do the research, buy the Mamma Bear, not the Baby Bear. Like web browser or anti-virus software, the "best" HD manufacturer is a religious issue, but I swear by WesternDigital "Black" for my internal spinning drives. And I've had good experiences for decades with both Seagate and WesternDigital 3.5" externally powered external drives. I personally have NEVER had a drive die on me. I replace them after 5 or so years but I still pull them out of storage now and then for temporary use. Also, I don't buy the cheapest one in the catalogue. Even Seagate and WD have bad batches and they end up on the bargain page at Amazon and NewEgg. Don't buy the baby bear.
Best option is to get a big UPS system (1000VA or 1500VA) or at least twice the actual total power draw of the devices in the system. Plug them all into the same UPS or house circuit. If the total power draw is unknown, then buy or borrow a power meter and get a proper indication. Measure when the system is very busy. A good UPS will have a built-in power meter. I run my DAZing tower & monitor, and my laptop, and a 42 inch TV and Blu-Ray player and cable modem and network switch and an LED desk lamp from a 1000VA UPS with power to spare according to the built-in power meter. Yeah, it was $150 but I know all the equipment is using safe reliable power. Downside? Yeah, price. A 1000VA UPS can be had for about $150 (US) and about every three years you need to replace the battery ($50)
Power meter: https://www.amazon.com/Electricity-Monitor-Display-Consumption-Analyzer/dp/B07RGHZV3B/ref=asc_df_B07RGHZV3B/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475818912700&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9717855545521661215&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005685&hvtargid=pla-1133588049277&psc=1
A decent UPS: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/apc-back-ups-pro-bx1000m-ups-ac-120-v-600-watt-1000-va-usb-output-connectors-8-black/apd/a9671069/power-cooling-data-center-infrastructure?gacd=9646510-1025-5761040-266794296-0&dgc=st&ds_rl=1282786&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjPaCBhDkARIsAISZN7QSjEWfkuVqrlpB9l6UmtTp7EC-OV6Fy94f-gLOtjiN55KvrnFZtUcaAqFaEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
These are a good idea. If you're using a fast spinning drive that gets hot, you can just point a small fan at it and cool it down. I have one. But the first one I bought was dead on arrival and I had to send it back. One problem with them though is that the slots open upward, and in a dusty house, dust would settle down into an unused slot. I solved the problem by covering the unused slot with a piece of paper taped into place along one edge. If I need to use the 2nd slot I just flip the paper up out of the way.
The one of these I have just has springy plastic flaps that close when a drive isn't in it. With a smaller springy flap cutout when using smaller drives. I got it a while ago but i'm sure something similar must be availible now.
There's also this from Startech!
Does it do crumpets, so I can be fancy?
How long does the UPS provide power for all those things if the utility power goes out? The specs mention that it will provide 600 watts for up to 4 minutes? Which is only like 40 watt-hours. Which means it will run a light bulb for like an hour...
My recollection from many years ago when I thought about a UPS was that after doing the calculations I realized they only provide power for a few minutes if the utility power goes out. Just long enough to shut everything down maybe, but not much else. And nowadays Windows 10 does a decent job of remembering where you were during an abnormal shutdown and when you re-start it goes back to where it was.
They're not meant to replace the electrical grid. All a UPS needs to do is protect against dips and surges and give you time to save your work and perform an orderly shutdown in case of an outage. For example, I live in an apartment in a older building. Because of the location of my computer, it would lose power and shut down whenever I used my old microwave oven. Having a UPS in place solved that problem.
Mine give me about 10 or 15 minutes depending on what's going on. Long enough for me to save stuff and shut down if I'm in the house when the power goes out. And, during storms, if the power goes out for a second or a couple of minutes, nothing changes, they are up. You can have the devices shut down automatically after a certain amount of time as well.
Also, keep in mind that most decent ATX power supplies are rated to operate at very low voltages. For example, at least those sold here in the US are typically rated to operate down at only 100volts, while the normal utility voltage at your outlet is 120volts. And I recall doing a test long ago that showed one of my ATX supplies still operated down around 80 volts. So even with sizable voltage dips your PC should be okay.
So yeah, if you're subject to utility outages that are severe and long lasting it will probably give you time to do an orderly shutdown. And honestly, is the stuff I'm doing on my PC that critical that I need an orderly shutdown? I've developed a nervous tick that makes me constantly hit the Save button whenever I'm working on something I don't want to lose.
But personally I've always taken the view that if, for example, there's a lightning storm on the way I shut down and disconnect all my PC's from the wall outlet anyway because a UPS proably ain't gonna help you if you have a major lightning surge that makes its way to your house.
Anyway, just so people know, I think it's safe to say that a UPS will probably give some benefit for only some very specific scenarios that many users might not need. It's good to understand exactly what you're getting before you spend that $$.
By the way, for those who really need some standby power for a long duration outage of the power company...
For the same $150 that a 600 watt UPS might cost you, you can run down to Lowe's and pick up a very nice, portable, 1,000 watt gasoline generator that will give you enough to probably power most of your house indefinitely (depending on how much gasoline you have). And it also isolates you from any nasty storms that might be causing havoc with your power company. Just put it outside your window and run an extension cord to your PC and whatever else and you're all set.
That's like saying that iPhones and Teslas "go bad". At the core of a UPS is a rechargeable battery. Like any rechargeable battery, it has a limited lifespan, will deteriorate over time need to be replaced eventually.
A few minutes. Enough to let the automatic shutdown feature do an orderly shutdown. The APC units that I have run a USB cable* to the computer through which you can get status reports of recorded fluctuations, outages, battery health, etc. And it provides a signal to Windows to initiate Shutdown once the battery falls to a set level.
Note: the "USB cable" is actually a special cable with a standard USB2-A connector on one end, and a 10-pin
"LAN-like" connector,as opposed to a typical 8-pin "RJ-45" LAN connector, at the battery end. So, don't lose it in your box of USB or Network cables! (the voice of experience)
Here's a link to a bigger(1500VA) unit: https://www.newegg.com/apc-br1500ms2/p/N82E16842301736?item=N82E16842301736&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=DD032721&cm_mmc=EMC-DD032721-_-EMC-032721-Index-_-UPS-_-42301736-S2A5C&ignorebbr=1
And here's a link to a 1000VA unit on sale today(3/27/2021)at NewEgg: https://www.newegg.com/apc-br1500ms2/p/N82E16842301736?item=N82E16842301736&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=DD032721&cm_mmc=EMC-DD032721-_-EMC-032721-Index-_-UPS-_-42301736-S2A5C&ignorebbr=1
Free shipping too!
Well, actually a surge protector has, as I said, what's called an MOV (metal oxide varistor) connected across the wires coming from your outlet. It's a variable resistor. Under normal voltages is is a very high resistance, almost an open circuit. For any high voltage surges it suddenly acts like a very low resistance, and the surge travels thru the MOV and into the ground/neutral wire. Once the high voltage is gone, the MOV goes back to being a high resistance.
However, if there's too much energy going thru the MOV it can get destroyed. And that's likely to result in a short circuit on your house wiring, which would operate the breaker and turn off your lights. So the surge protector is very much different from a melting wire or an opening breaker. It's designed to keep everything operating during brief, high voltage surges coming into your house, and then returns everything to normal.
One problem, and why they are of questionable value, is their response depends on how "spikey" or short duration the incoming surge is. If it goes from normal to super high is a tiny fraction of a second, a cheap MOV may not be able to respond that fast, and the surge goes right by and into your computer. Although the PSU in the computer also has MOV's in it that are probably of higher quality, so did you need the surge protector in the first place?
Of course it doesn't work all that well if it's not running. And it requires some startup time, probably longer than your computer can last without UPS when there's a power outage. So you better have it running at all times.
A modern surge protector contains a MOV - a metal-oxide varistor. This is an electric component with an resistance that varies with the applied voltage. With a low voltage applied it does not conduct very well and only a very small trickle current flows through it. If the voltage rises above a threshold its resistance drops and it starts conducting very well. In a surge protector it is connected between live and neutral (and live and protective earth, and neutral and protective earth) and when a surge occurs it starts conducting away from the appliance it protects (by causing a temoprary short circuit, so the energy from the surge does not flow through the appliance but safely away from it).
Now, a MOV is not an ideal component and if it has to conduct more energy than it can handle that causes faults to occur within the component, degrading it over time and at one point it will then fail.
Your "wire that melts" is not a surge protector, it's a fuse. A surge protector can be described more akin to, as I said, a temporary short circuit.
Also, keep in mind that if you were to suddenly shut off the power strip that feeds your PC (which I don't recommend you do...) to simulate losing power from the power company, and then turn your PC back on, Windows 10 will probably respond with "Hey, your computer shut down unexpectedly, do you want me to restore everything the way it was?". And it will fire up your browser and restore the links, and restore all the other software to the way it was just before the shutdown. So is a UPS really needed?
Apologies, nothing personal. I just thought an alternate description might prevent folks from unscrewing their power strip hoping to replace a non-existent fuse
That test has a danger that windows doesn't ask the question ever again, not without reinstallation.
And any unsaved documents, or documents changed since the last auto-save, will be lost regardless.