The "No Later Then" Thread

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  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    j cade said:

    marble said:

    j cade said:

    marble said:

    j cade said:

    Incidentally, as someone who has attended grade school more recently than most of the other people in this thread, one reason for some of said decline is that grammar isn't really taught... at all. There are numerous reasons for this. Primarily slashing school budgets and teaching to tests to the point where high school students rarely write essays, because you can't really do essays in a standardized test. It's with noting that neither of these reasons were in the control of the students about whose grammar people now complain.

     

    Again I must interject that my education in the 1960s did not give me a decent grounding in grammar. I still couldn't tell you about all the arcane terms used to formulate the rules of grammar. I have to think hard to remember what a pronoun is. However, the rules tend to explain themselves the more we are exposed to the written language. The same goes for spelling. I don't encourage pedantry either but I do hold to some basic standards. Amusingly, a while ago I had a rant about the way Americans mis-spell English words only to find, when I looked up the etymology, that in many cases the American spelling is more faithful to the historical English spelling than modern British English. 

    How much were you writing? I got lucky with teachers, but there were genuinely people with whom I went to college who had literally not been required to write a single essay before their college admission essay, which is not exactly the most formal of essays. And that is "literally" in the literal sense not merely used as an intensifier.

     

    Students can read on their own (though the way it tends to be taught entirely joylessly does not engender a love of reading). It is much harder to write an essay on one's own and find someone to give it to who will mark it up and send it back for correction.

     

    That said, all these students were able to read what have you and understand its contents just fine. Plenty of them were perfectly well read, they simply had no practice with writing formally.

     

    Compare it to playing the piano. I can listen to someone playing, I can listen to them with the score in front of me, I could analyze the score and write what some chords in it are and what their function is. But I am never going to be able to learn how to play the piano just by doing all that. I'm going to actually need to practice playing a piano for that.

     

    Schools currently teach English rather like someone trying to teach piano without ever having their students play.

    I have to go back to the picture I was trying to paint earlier about the nature of the school I attended. I was from a very small, very working class (industrial) community. Our school did not even allow pupils to take the available school certificate exams (in those days in the UK that would be GCE and CSE exams) until the year before I left (so, effectively, I had a year to prepare for my GCEs). Our school was geared to producing barely educated factory workers. So, in answer to your question, I was probably never asked to write an essay longer than a single page. The fact that I did like writing essays was even discouraged - my English teacher wrote a comment on my report: "too much imagination". 

    I liked reading and I liked to write but I did not have the necessary basic tools of the trade. I didn't know the terminology or the rules of grammar, for example.

    And would you say most of you fellow students exited that school with an excellent grasp of grammar and spelling? It sounds like you learned most of what you now know about them over many years outside of formal education.

     

    It sounds rather like we're in agreement. Schools that don't teach grammar and how to write produce graduates without a firm grasp of how to write with "proper" grammar. 

     

    It just seems weird then, to me, that the general response to this is "kids these days! English is dying!" and not "Wow I thought schools were better about teaching stuff now, guess they're still crap"

    Oh, I'd say that most of my fellow students from my school at that time left with the merest glimmer of an understanding of grammar. Perhaps spelling was a little better because we did have spelling tests quite regularly (the English teacher seemed to love humiliating those who made mistakes). I do agree with the comments about the internet and phone texting. I also think that reading has to compete with so many other forms of entertainment these days.

    I have always maintained that my love of comics (DC and Marvel) from childhood through my teens introduced me to a lifetime of reading for pleasure. Reading comics was frowned upon in those days so, like any normal child, I couldn't get enough of them. I was also fascinated by all the comic hero gadgets and wondered how they might work so I developed a life-long interest in science - at least the kind of science that is associated with awe and wonder like cosmology, the nature of time and space travel. That led to reading Sci-Fi novels and then on to general fiction. So, in short, reading was my escape into the fantastic and I think that kids these days have so many other ways to discover that kind of excitement without ever opening a book. 

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    3WC said:

    Ironically, in this thread bemoaning a lack of grammar and spelling, there are many, many typos and misspellings! :)

    Typos are, by definition, mistakes. I usually re-read my posts and edit typos (because I make so many) but I still miss a few. I'm also aware that my spelling is not perfect, nor is my grammar. I think the complaint here is that the general quality of written English has declined somewhat and that it is sad to see some of the more egregious errors becoming accepted as the new normal.

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,974

    Reading all the above makes me feel glad growing up as a german in Germany getting taught english by german teachers that studied at Oxford or Cambridge (at least for a while, usually), who frowned upon my american accent that I picked up from watching american movies in subtitled versions, but on the other hand appreciated me being a frequent reader of english MAD Magazine.

    Now, about 50 or so years later I lack in the "spoken english" department a lot - due to being there no need to english in day-to-day affairs - and I also notice growing more lazy about my written english, as I use it usually only on forums frequented by people who seem to be as lazy as I. devil

  • Subtropic PixelSubtropic Pixel Posts: 2,388
    edited May 2021

    So just a few quick points from me, and then y'all can get back to the important topics.  cheeky

    1. This is all Siri's fault.  She gets everything wrong!  She once typed out "eff your mother", only she was using the actual WORD, not a letter.  Luckily for me, I looked at the screen when she asked me "would you like me to send it?" and I was able put that one back into the toy box by correcting it to "I'm hungry for a hamburger and french fries", which was my original attempt.
    2. "Nother" is incorrect.  But spelling it with an apostrophe is a whole 'nother thing.  It works for me because saying "it's a whole another thing" just seems too formal to me!
    3. "Y'all" may be inadequate to the task before it, which is to convey meaning.  Some of us in the South of the US use "y'all" as a replacement for "you all".  But what most people don't realize is that here in the South, "you all" can be one person or multiple people.  If I'm talking to Joe, "y'all" is descriptive enough and he knows that I mean him, Joe.  But if I'm at a party or in front of the water cooler (I know, nobody has those anymore) talking to more than one person, it may be more correct to say "all y'all".  That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

    ...oh yes, and I have bachelor and masters degrees, but not in English.  I did have to learn Assembly language for my bachelor degree, and C++ and Java coding for my master degree.  Let me tell you, there's nothing sexier than saying "zero and add packed" in mixed company.  But only fellow programmers would be in on the joke if I said ZAP instead.  Seems elitist to me.

    wink

    Post edited by Subtropic Pixel on
  • nicsttnicstt Posts: 11,715

    McGyver said:

    I miss grammar... she passed away a long time ago.

    haha.

    My personal favourite: there in place of they're... Although, I do have a few favourites.

  • namffuaknamffuak Posts: 4,188

    My short form for picking the proper choice from their, there, and they're: "They're supposed to put their boots over there."

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,316

    The people I know all write quite well, if not with a flourish, and even though their spoken words sound nothing like their writing, which is very quiet, I can see their writing much better. It's so confusing. They never, ever use the word egregious though.

    My writing skills have plummeted in the last 10 years without a lot of extra effort though. Maybe it is egregious? I think egregious is something bad as I keep hearing highly paid professionals using it all the time now. I haven't looked up what it means yet though.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    nonesuch00 said:

    The people I know all write quite well, if not with a flourish, and even though their spoken words sound nothing like their writing, which is very quiet, I can see their writing much better. It's so confusing. They never, ever use the word egregious though.

    My writing skills have plummeted in the last 10 years without a lot of extra effort though. Maybe it is egregious? I think egregious is something bad as I keep hearing highly paid professionals using it all the time now. I haven't looked up what it means yet though.

    There we go ... mocked for using a word. No wonder we are all afraid to be adventurous with our writing. 

  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 648


    My pet peeve is "spell checker".

    Only a witch verifying that her incantations are correct uses a spell checker. We use a "spelling checker". I curse the early programmer who unwittingly enshrined "spell checker" in our modern vocabulary.

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,974

    Subtropic Pixel said:

    "Y'all" may be inadequate to the task before it, which is to convey meaning.  Some of us in the South of the US use "y'all" as a replacement for "you all".  But what most people don't realize is that here in the South, "you all" can be one person or multiple people.  If I'm talking to Joe, "y'all" is descriptive enough and he knows that I mean him, Joe.  But if I'm at a party or in front of the water cooler (I know, nobody has those anymore) talking to more than one person, it may be more correct to say "all y'all".  That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

     Way back in the '70s I learned about "y'all" by reading the novel M.A.S.H. in the english version, not the german translation. And as I thought of it being a great addition to my vocabulary, I started to use it sometime when talking. I guess if I had used it at school my Britain trained english teacher might have not approved it. She told me "English, not american please" often enough during lessons... devil

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    edited May 2021

    Evribadi sud start löörning Finnis, bekoose it is ritten eksaktli laik it is spoken

    Post edited by PerttiA on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,927
    edited May 2021


    My pet peeve is "spell checker".

    Only a witch verifying that her incantations are correct uses a spell checker. We use a "spelling checker". I curse the early programmer who unwittingly enshrined "spell checker" in our modern vocabulary.

    When I wrote a c++ spell checker for a program of mine, I had an animation run during the checking, with an 8 frame animation of a wizard throwing spells. I think the name was justified for that program, even if you are not a fan of the term.

    Post edited by richardandtracy on
  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    marble said:

    Again I must interject that my education in the 1960s did not give me a decent grounding in grammar. I still couldn't tell you about all the arcane terms used to formulate the rules of grammar. I have to think hard to remember what a pronoun is. However, the rules tend to explain themselves the more we are exposed to the written language. The same goes for spelling. I don't encourage pedantry either but I do hold to some basic standards. Amusingly, a while ago I had a rant about the way Americans mis-spell English words only to find, when I looked up the etymology, that in many cases the American spelling is more faithful to the historical English spelling than modern British English. 

    I have never liked the way they teach grammar for any language at school (Four languages in my case), but also in my case being an avid reader taught me the rules the "natural" way. Started reading books in english when I was 14 because I had read all the interesting ones at the local library already (2 books per night), and some 2-3 years later I started realizing how mediocre the skills of our english teacher were... He didn't like me a lot when I started correcting himlaugh

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    PerttiA said:

    marble said:

    Again I must interject that my education in the 1960s did not give me a decent grounding in grammar. I still couldn't tell you about all the arcane terms used to formulate the rules of grammar. I have to think hard to remember what a pronoun is. However, the rules tend to explain themselves the more we are exposed to the written language. The same goes for spelling. I don't encourage pedantry either but I do hold to some basic standards. Amusingly, a while ago I had a rant about the way Americans mis-spell English words only to find, when I looked up the etymology, that in many cases the American spelling is more faithful to the historical English spelling than modern British English. 

    I have never liked the way they teach grammar for any language at school (Four languages in my case), but also in my case being an avid reader taught me the rules the "natural" way. Started reading books in english when I was 14 because I had read all the interesting ones at the local library already (2 books per night), and some 2-3 years later I started realizing how mediocre the skills of our english teacher were... He didn't like me a lot when I started correcting himlaugh

    I do admire non-English speakers who learn the language ... most English people, myself included, are hopeless with other languages because, well, we are spoiled because people everywhere tend to learn English as a second language. However, I do pity you trying to get to grips with the oddities of English. I've seen the word through spelled "thru" and it tends to annoy me but, in truth, why not simplify it? Whoever came up with the idea of using "ough" to make an "oo" sound? Especially when it also makes an "uff" sound (rough), an "ow" sound (bough) and an "off" sound (cough). And let's not get started on English place names like Leicester (pronounced Lester) or Worcester (pronounced wooster or wuster).

     

  • LeatherGryphonLeatherGryphon Posts: 11,669
    edited May 2021

    PerttiA said:

    Evribadi sud start löörning Finnis, bekoose it is ritten eksaktli laik it is spoken

    A moose once bit my sister...  No, realli!   She was karving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge. 

    Post edited by LeatherGryphon on
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