The Tutorial/Training Elephant in the Room
JasonSWrench
Posts: 380
OK, this is admittedly a half-complaint and half-modest proposal thread, and I'm about to vent quite a few frustrations I've faced related to training and tutorials here at DAZ. I'm a long-term DAZ user and have spent quite a bit of money here. My alleged full total value of all my DAZ assets is $330,005.00 (thank god for sales). I would probably consider myself an average to an above-average user, but learning DAZ is a ridiculously steep curve. Personally, I think DAZ has a serious tutorial problem that was only highlighted today by the inclusion of Flipped Normals today. Don't get me wrong, I think Flipped Normals is a great site with a lot of great material, but I think the inclusion of their tutorials here is problematic because the tutorials are not DAZ specific.
1) It's great that you can learn ZBrush, only to realize that a lot of the suggestions that people have for working with a base mesh requires a mesh that your average user cannot export from DAZ to ZBrush (looking at you Genesis figures). In fact, there are quite a few tutorials that have ZBrush tips and tricks but most of them never discuss the inherent limitations your average DAZ user has forced on them by DAZ Studio. It's only when you deep dive into the forums that you find the average users are limited in programs like ZBrush because DAZ decided that only Premier Artists have this ability to sculpt on HD meshes. I'm not saying DAZ shouldn't do this, but then the tutorials that DAZ creates (and sells) should reflect this limitation clearly. As such, don't show potential learners all the nifty things you can do with a program like ZBrush when it's not realistic for them (or at least make sure those features are labeled as such). Instead, create tutorials that show the average user what they can do with DAZ meshes. Though, personally, I wish DAZ would just let us export and import HD morphs already.
2) This brings me to a more basic issue, create tutorials about integrating programs with DAZ and ALL the problems that come along with those integrations. For example, I love playing around with Marvelous Designer, but so many of the tutorials forget to talk about all the problems associated with bringing in content from MD into DAZ (admittedly, I'm still stumped why there isn't a bridge for this yet). Tutorials about MD often gloss over what needs to happen with an MD mesh once it's brought into DAZ. And when they do talk about adjusting weight maps, it's almost like magic when that's never actually the case.
3) Beta test these tutorials before they are sold in the store with average users. Many of the tutorials are live streams that are not much more than talking heads showing people what is happening. Maybe it's because I'm an instructional designer by training, but this is NOT a very good way to help people learn. And just because someone is a premier artist does not mean they are a good trainer. I've seen some premier artist tutorials that are abysmally bad at explaining their process to others. And of course, for those of us who spend money on these tutorials, the only way for us to find out if a tutorial is worth anything is to hope there will be a discussion board post before we purchase. And since DAZ users can't rate their purchases, we have no way of ascertaining what content is good and what is not.
4) Have better training ALL the way around from DAZ. So many products that DAZ puts out (or premiere artists create) are devoid of training materials for the average user. When you do find documentation, it's often not written for the average user at all. Though, I will say DAZ has gotten better at this in the past few years - at least with regard to explaining the basic functions of DAZ. When I started using DAZ, there were handful of YouTube videos and a college textbook on DAZ, but that was about it.
5) Maybe DAZ needs to assign classifications to certain materials it sells. You can have materials for beginning users, advanced users, and expert users. I've purchased many a utility that sounded like it could be useful only to figure out after the fact that it's really something only a premier artist would ever use in their workflow. It kind of does this with the products it labels as Merchant Resources. As a side note, I rarely, if ever, actually ask for my money back after I purchased something. Hell, I still have one utility I gave up on ever trying to use after almost two-years of back and forth with DAZ engineers trying to figure out why it wouldn't work for me. This was partially my fault (I don't use DAZ every day or even every week sometimes), so I didn't stay on top of this issue as much as I could have. At the same time, the serious lag in DAZ customer service is a separate problem (though peripherally related to training).
6) LINK to the documentation pages from the sales pages already... or at least from the Product Library page. Nothing is more frustrating as a user than needing to find out some kind of documentation (like where the hell the item is stored on your hard drive) than needing the documentation then having to place hide-and-go-seek with DAZ to figure out where it's located. OK, I have my product SKU now, time to figure out where DAZ hid that information again because it's not like I use that site every day. I always end up wasting time on this DAZ game when I need it.
7) And speaking of the DAZ scavenger hunt, half the time I end up just re-downloading the product manually so I can look in the unzipped file structure to know where my purchased item was hidden. If it doesn't pop up in my smart content, which often happens, then figuring out where a product is located (and all the parts of that product are located) should be easier than it is. Currently, it's just a frustration. How is this a training issue? Easy, because effective documentation and the ability to locate that documentation go hand-in-hand. Again, DAZ should make finding this information on the product page or the product library page easier.
8) And last, primarily because I like even-numbered lists, please, please, please fix the functionality of the search function in the discussion forums. Over the years, I've learned that the DAZ discussion "search forums" is probably the most useless tool on their website that never seems to get better with age. When I'm searching for a fix to a problem, I should be able to find information within the discussions, but most of the time I get nothing useful because I can't use Boolean operators effectively to narrow down a search here. Thankfully, I do have the ability to use Google. So when I search for a problem I'm facing with DAZ, I can often find a few hits from the DAZ discussions when I search using a traditional search. But should I really need to go outside the DAZ infrastructure to be able to do this? Again, another part of DAZ that is simply not user-friendly nor newbie-friendly. Honestly, I would never recommend anyone go down the DAZ rabbit hole as I did. It's expensive and time-consuming, and I think newbies should be warned on Day 1 that this is the case. You know, full disclosure on what you're diving into.
9) Who am I kidding, I have another one. There should be a separate forum for DAZ PA Commercial Tutorials section where users can ask questions and show what they've learned based on the tutorials they've purchased. Most tutorial sites have something like this when you purchase a tutorial. This way, if you run into a question, you can go to the originator of the content. This will also help tutorial creators see if there are common questions that were clearly not addressed in their tutorials. This could lead to future products or fixes to the current one.
Overall, I like DAZ. Obviously, I wouldn't have raked up 15,500 plus items in my Install Manager if I didn't like DAZ. And I like supporting the DAZ artists. I just want DAZ and the creators of all of its and peripheral training materials to take a step back and think about the content they are presenting. And if you're going to create a tutorial for ZBrush, then make sure it's applicable for DAZ studio users. If not, then DAZ should label the product as interesting but not directly related to DAZ. Sure, you can argue that any tutorial about ZBrush can be useful for a DAZ artist, but purchasing Flipped Normal's Introduction to ZBrush will not get you very far in DAZ Studio without a LOT of other training that's not covered in this tutorial. If that's what someone's looking for, they'd be better off checking out https://www.daz3d.com/transforming-daz-dragon-3-with-zbrush (see I don't hate all of them), but this won't really help you understand the problems and limitations with doing transformations with the Genesis Meshes average users face.
Jason
PS. Now I'm going to go purchase something on DAZ to make me feel better (go retail therapy).
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Comments
This is a very great list of things as tutorials are really hit or miss for me on when they work.
I'm just popping in though to talk about finding out where items are located on your hard drive or even in your library. What I do if I can't find something, I go to DIM, find the item under installed and then click the little arrow on the right hand side and the third option from the bottom is show installed files. A box pops up where it tells you where all the items are located in your my daz 3d folder. I remember before I found this trick out I would search non-stop through my library for things, try to find the sales page to know who created the product to search for their name in my runtime, etcetera. I hope this helps!
Well I think you are likely going to love the live tutorial we will be having on Saturday - available to all via youtube and facebook.
You can signup here - https://fb.me/e/3tfiRJmqy to get updates.
I highly recommend you follow our Facebook and YouTube as we post tutorials and other helpful information there.
Dear Jessica, you have an own store with a forum and a blog; why then force people to follow you on FB? There are at least as many people who reject FB as severely as NFT.
I do not know what's up with your FB page, as it is blacklisted on my router, as ANYTHING from Zuckerberg, but if it is anything like your Twitter presence, I assume it is a dead wasteland anyway.
Anything Facebook is dead to me. No thanks.
Redacted
To give you and idea 31k Followers on FB. But very few comments on publications, when they post Artwork they get more reactions than when they promote their products. Still not that much; i think gallery here has more user interaction than in FB. So as a comunnity for studio or the store, Daz FB is nonexistant.
I follow DAZ on Facebook, but if they ever post anything, I don't see it. No idea why.
Honestly, that are 16k more than I have assumed.
... What is the event about? It's a little weird not to include that info. Or am I missing it? On a positive note: Glad to see some live events for everyone.
Also, please advertise these on the forums too if you can. I don't check the Daz FB page so I would have no idea about this if you hadn't said something here.
No FB/Insta/Twitter/Tinder here either
I think you do not need Tinder anymore; hasn't FB or Whatsapp a sex-finder function included meanwhile? Or is this still a wet dream of the founder?
Wet dreams... Haven't had those either in the last 40+ years
This has to be the worst marketing yet. No one knew about this “Live event” until it was posted about here right now in a customer’s thread. Facebook literally has no info on what this is about and did not respond to any questions asked by people who actually saw this on FB. Basic questions like what is this about and will this be recorded are not answered. Who is in charge of marketing at Daz?
I'm another who would never go back to Facebook. I still use YouTube although I have concerns about it (especially the constant and inappropriate recommendations on my Home page) but I have channels to which I am subscribed so I avoid the home page as much as possible. Live events are not of much use to me as they usually happen while I am sound asleep down here in New Zealand. I will watch the recorded event if it is left up on the YouTube channel though.
To return to the points in the OP though. I can't afford ZBrush so would rather see tutorials covering DAZ Studio/Blender interoperation. I have Marvelous Designer 8 but, as is mentioned in the OP, it is not a simple task getting stuff back and forth between the two applications (a bridge would be Marvelous).
@JasonSWrench sent you a PM...
Another user of Daz3D products who is not on Facebook, Twitter or other blackholes by choice. I will admit to signing up for MySpace after my son badgered me back in the day, but one stranger trying to be my 'friend' scared me away within a day. I told him to use a phone and call me instead, or write a letter or email.
Re Saturday, what time, what for, what channel? Saturdays are a work day for me. So I need to schedule things. I don't appreciate coy invites.
But thanks Daz_Jessica.
Maybe the suggestion from the guys above to have a forum thread where you all make announcements and interact with us on a routine basis. You know, make friends here?
Mary
My tutorials are in my signature but they are outdates. I hope that helps a bit.
I agree on the whole with your assessment of lack of tutorials. Yes, we do want a cutting edge edge program and people to be working on that diligently but please also hire some people knowledgeable enough with DAZ to do a beginner set of tutorials, a mid level set, and an advanced set of tutorials that include submitting your work to become a DAZ vendor. Make these tutorials free and available to all through as many means as possible (Online downloadable .PDF, on youtube, etc.). Yes, there are some but the list is incomplete and difficult to find.
That's my two cents.
Given the EXTREMELY POOR—and that's putting it nicely—quality of DAZ-produced "tutorials and other helpful information" posted on YT and FB to date, I highly doubt it.
I don't do 'social media' in any form; I dropped FB back when Daz reworked the store to no longer take cash vouchers.
Daz YouTube channel is laughable. Most of it is advertisizing, extremely short tutorials when they do post them, that give extremely little information, not all of them are understandable, many are too old to use and whenever something new happens in the program or additions to an existing version it takes months before anything is posted on how to use, while people are screaming for information. Comments section is filled with people asking questions and no answers.
People look elsewhere for information because they know they won't get help from Daz about their own program and the many addon's.
I also agree with what is already posted
If you have people venturing into 3D and Daz, not forgetting some of us old sweats the lack of info on how to get the best out of the program leaves us frustrated. While other programs in the 3D sphere are awash with official tutorials and or info then the tips and tricks from interested users spinning off the official information, Most 3D software if not all even poser have some sort of road map, which keeps people excited as well as informed
Daz lack of road map and documentation is not very conducive to keeping customers. It is usually the old Poser/Daz users who have invested a lot of money into either or both programs that are staying with the some might say sinking ship? while others new to the Daz ecosystem who have not invested a great deal will seek other programs with a better knowledge base
But not having these vital pieces of info tutorials road maps and the like to help excite the user or give them something look forward to, therefore stick with Daz.Otherwise people will give up and move to a platform where answers will be available for the many questions/ pitfalls that people come across while learning a new program
Daz gives us a free program but little or no information on what is what, or how to maximise the program to get the best out of it
I mentioned in a thread a while back how hard learning the simplest thing in Daz could be. I spoke about how there was no pop up in the program explaining the camera headlamp or why it was ruining the light in all my scenes when I first began learning Iray. A few days later, Daz published a blog post about lighting and camera headlamps. That whole approach is part of the problem.
Most people will not be going to old YouTube videos on channels they don't know about. Most people will not be reading blog posts to help them with technical issues. Most people won't be reading the blog at all. New users will be looking for tooltips in the program, checking the official help section and the official tutorials prominently displayed on the website.
It's not reasonable to expect people to Google everything when half the time they don't know what to ask or how to phrase it. The other half of the time, the Google search results are filled with worthless and unrelated results. Wading through them can be a pointless nightmare. I would love Daz to add better documentation in places where people could be reasonably expected to find it, but honestly, that would probably get in the way of them selling overpriced tutorials.
Yes to all the points in OP. Regarding point 6 - for the love of all that's good in this world, Daz, please fix the documentation. 9 times out of 10, a product readme page says that it's a placeholder. It requires a random amount of refreshing for the page to 'generate'. Fix it.
And another vote to advertise Daz's tutorials on their own website - no FB here.
A decent help file saying what each function does and how to get the best out of it is fantastically useful. I do it for the software I write. It's possible & easy if you care enough about your users to start doing it. If it's updated every time a function is altered, the amount of work per function is tiny and the help file stays up to date. It isn't rocket science to do it .
Regards,
Richard.
A lot are probably like me. I have an FB account, I follow DAZ on that account. I also haven't logged into FB in like five years.
Not sure if you saw it yesterday, but Richard made a thread with info about the tutorial Saturday.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/499076/new-jay-versluis-webinar#latest
DAZ even has a platform for such manual, too bad that it is directed to ones already familiar with the intricacies and terminology involved and hasn't been updated since something like DS 4.5...
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/start ;
Definitenly check out Jay's webinar. He is quite good at explaining things and does not hide mistakes as those are also learning tools.