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cridgit
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Hierarchical presets are used (usually) fro good reason - for characters with separate lashes and brows, for clothes with buttons etc. handled via rigid Follow Nodes so that they do not distort.
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Not all Hposes are created the same. What is the product that is giving you issues?
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Well, that makes a very good reason for me - and others probably - to just keep my purse closed and stopped buying stuff that doesn't also on G8 figures without me having too much fiddling about with it.
So, yeah, it's really a case of "bugger off, DAZ, dumb choice and less money for you (at least from me...)"
What I would love to see is an option (control click?) to just apply the pose without the hierarchical components. This is especially bothersome when going between generations, because what usually would just require some (automated) adjustments suddenly forces you to load the pose on the original figure, re-save it, and then do what it is you were actually trying to do. It's a hassle, to put it mildly.
I can understand Hierarcial poses when talking about adult appendixes in certain NSFW interactions or using Hierarcial pose to set up some prop with actors, but what is there to pose in eyelashes and/or brows that is not controlled by eyelids and or forehead?...
Same here.
It would take a PA or DAZ 10-15 minutes, at most, to create a set of second set of non-hierarchical poses in the far from uncommon event a customer wants to use a specific pose without the parented item rather than forcing customers to spend dozens, if not hunderds, of hours cumulatively doing so. Not doing so pretty much amounts to giving customers the finger. I've stopped buying ANYTHING from PAs who don't include a non-hierarchical pose set with their product.
In the same boat here. I don't use 8.1 content, and now so many new releases that I would have purchased, I don't.
Lashes/brows get Hierarchical materials presets, rather than (usually - I can imagien some of the extravagant fantasy brows having their own posing) Hierarchical Pose presets.
An option like that sounds like a good feature request (which isn't to say it would necessarily be implemented) https://www.daz3d.com/help
they are strictly for the click and render crowd.
I have no issues with them as an additional thing but like hierarchical material presets when the only way you can load materials on a single item is to have the character wearing the whole wardrobe set as is the case with some and you only want to use the jacket, well that is crappy, if I want to appy half of a couples pose or a wheelchair pose in a different wheelchair well too bad.
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or, alternatively, for the crowd that doesn't make a hair-shirted virtue out of doing things the long way
Hierarchcial presets should need only the base figure, and any intervening parents (e.g. the preset wouldn't apply to a sword if it was parented to a hip when the preset expected scabbard or hand). Missing items should simply be skipped, or at least I think that has been my experience.
I experience similar issues with hierarchical presets.
They seem to be a relatively recent phenomena too, as ever increasing percentages of products now only come with hierarchal presets. Not really sure what purpose this serves because in my opinion they cause more issues than they solve. At least for me.
"Hierarchical presets requiring only the base figure" is actually the aspect that annoys me the most. I use G3 figures as much as I use G8, often more so. So as a result I tend to convert G8 hair and clothing to G3 and vice versa. It's really frustrating when I've just fit a G8 hair to G3 only to be blocked by a hierarchal preset when I apply a material shader. Like I've performed some horrendous crime just for using a G8 hair on G3! Same issue with clothing and skin textures. Yes, I actually have the audacity to apply a G8 skin to a G3 character!
Now I can understand, perhaps, the benefit of a hierarchical preset in the case you want to apply a shader to an entire outfit with a single click, but why should this be blocked if I decide to fit the outfit to G3? I also rarely use whole outfits and poses out of the box. If I buy a pose set, it is because I plan to use that set as a starting model for building my own poses. I sometimes use G8 poses on G3, convert, then modify them. Now with the added frustration of hierarchical pose sets this has become much more frustrating to do. It was already bad enough with a lot of pose presets changing the figure scale, expressions and eyes. Now if I wish to use a pose preset in this way, I first have to pose G8 and then save out the poses if I wish to apply them to G3. Most of the time now I buy less pose sets and instead build my own from scratch.
The same issue for material presets on hair and outfits. I mix and match clothing a lot. Again, quite often I will design my own materials and shaders for them too.
So why do we have hierarchical presets for applying materials to hair and clothes? The only purpose I can think of is it's a deliberate attempt at obstructing customers from fitting G8 hair and clothing to G3.Which itself does not make sense since there are G3-G8 and G8-G3 hair, clothing and pose converters available in-store.
god you are dismissive of other's perfectly valid grievances
I don't want to have a bunch of useless poses I cannot use unless I load everything in the preset as dictated by the PA.
that is the dead opposite of doing things the long way.
I can and have indeed saved some as normal poses after loading everything which is certainly doing things the long way!
Why would content creatorsd wish to limit the usability of their products? They get paid whether or not you use the content on the figure it was designed for. Hirarchcial presets are rarely used for hair because hair is usually only a single item - where there have been sets that use interchangeable parts (e.g. differnt tail options or bangs) they may well use Hierarchcial presets.
It isn't actually fitting that is the issue, it's parenting - so in principle you could fit the stuff to Genesis 3, but parent it to an invisible Genesis 8, and the presets would work.
I was taking issue with the "click and render crowd". Still, if you are using a pose preset - hoerarchcial or otherwise - on a different figure then it is likely to require adjsutment anyway, probably a lot more work than applying to the intended figure and then copying across (you wouldn't really need to save a regular preset, unless you anticapted doing the same in future).
So ... let's see:
WendylLuvzCatz way:
Step 1) load and pose a g3 figure
Step 2) fit a g8 object to g3 figure
vs. your way:
Step 1) load and pose a g3 figure
Step 2) load a g8 figure
Step 3) match the pose of the g8 figure to the g3 figure pose
Step 5) match the coordinates coorddinates, roations, scale, and morphs of the g8 figure to the g3 figure
Step 6) parent the g3 figure to the g8 figure
Step 7) change the g8 figure visibility to invisible.
Yup, your way is a WHOLE lot shorter.
This is not about limiting the usablility of a product. If anything, hierarchical presets already limit usability for the reasons I already mentioned.
You say hierarchical presets are rare on hair, yet I have seen it quite often. This has nothing to do with whether or not the hair as tails and ribbons and bows, most of the time the tails, ribbons and bows are part of the hair object and so one mesh. And even if they are seperate objects, why should it matter whether I choose to fit them to G8 or G3? I'm trying to understand WHY hierarchal presets demand a G8 figure if it is a G8 hair. The figure the object's parented to should not be important.
For that same issue, try applying a material preset to a hair or clothing object without fitting/parenting it to anything at all. You get the same block. Most of the time it is a single hair or a single clothing object (such as a top or pants) which really do not require hierarchal presets at all. Hence my reasoning that this must be a deliberate obstruction.
My only workaround so far is to load all the different material presets one at a time and then save them so I can then apply the presets to a hair or clothing item fitted to G3 as normal. But why should I have to take these additional extra steps to use the product I paid for in the way I want? So hierarchical presets are restricting usability and are therefore obstructive.
Fitting the hierarchical objects to an invisible G8 that matches a G3 is also incredibly convoluted and rather silly. Like I said, I do not use items I purchase out of the box. And, I have to say, I sculpt a lot of my own characters, so that means I have to make identical versions of the same character in both G3 and G8. (If I can do that, I would just use the G8 in the first place) The only purchased characters I do sometimes use 'out of the box' are the characters created by Angel Wings. How would your method work for fitting/parenting a G8 hair to Chloe for G3, for instance?
If you want to provide hierarchical presets, fine, but please include non-hierarchal (normal) versions as well. Especially on hair and clothing. I would also prefer that if an item in store uses hierarchical presets, it should be stated in the product description.
In regards to pose presets, poses will normally always have to be adjusted anyway since pose presets tend to be created with one character in mind.
There are quick one-click converters in store that can transform a G8 pose to a G3 pose and vice versa, so this is not a 'lot more work'. Even if you do not have these converters, correcting a G8 pose applied to G3 is relatively simple (four steps in fact on changing the angles of the arms and legs). What I personally take issue to is the block when attempting to apply a hierarchal pose for G8 to a G3 character. Worse, some of these 'out of the box' poses change the figure scaling and expressions as well.
I, like many others, use purchased poses as a rough template to pose our characters in the way we want. I create and render a lot of child characters but the vast majority of in-store poses are built using adult characters. Interactive figures are also a nightmare - especially for interactions between, say, parent and child or older sister and little sister. Even if I decide to use a pose 'out of the box', it would be impossible for characters with large size differences, and would just look .. odd. Hierarchical presets just add another layer of obstruction.
However, for the most part I now create my own poses from scratch, or at least use the pose presets I have in my library as a starting point. I can build them using reference photos or just by observing the people around me.
Do you have some examples? The only ones I can recall, for hair, are for multi-part models or for dForce hair where there is often a skullcap that is available for selection and the actual hair is parented to that (so direct applicaiton of aregular preset would require going down another level).
The actual targets of a hierarchical preset need to be defined for it to work as intended, I don't know if theer could be a way to have them work from any root parent - it may be worth a feature request, at least for a ctrl-double-click option (I think I have in fact filed such a request of my own).
which won't in itself enable the use of the Genesis 8 poses/materials, so it isn't a complete process.
You added unneeded streps - and hiding the Genesis 8 figure is optional but presumably you don't want to render it.
I wasn't, in this case, trying to argue that the process is better than anything - justs aying that, given the (current) limits of hierarchical presets ther are options thata re quicker than resaving plain presets - at least for things thata re not going to be used repeatedly.
I just had a brief look and I think the hierarchical presets issue is vendor related. Some of the more recent 3DU hair and clothing presets for their characters, and most of PreT products also display this issue. There are others too, but I will have to draw up a longer list at a later date. I have encoutered products for both G8F and G8M that block me with hierarchical presets.
For now though, I will include some examples. If you have these products, you can test them yourself. The materials presets only work if the clothing and hair is fitted to a G8 figure. This seems overly obstructive in my opinion and completely unnecessary. The Kennedy hair and tails has ribbons and tails, but it is all one hair mesh (kind of like the hats on Emma and Jordi Hairs). And DForce works regardless if the base figure is G8 or G3, or indeed if you just feel like draping the clothing item over furniture. So saying the materials presets have to be hierarchical just because the item is Dforce does not make sense.
Heidi Hair for G8F https://www.daz3d.com/heidi-hair-for-genesis-8-females
Heidi clothing and accessories https://www.daz3d.com/heidi-dforce-clothing-and-accessories-for-genesis-8-females (in this case, I just want to fit the top to a G3 character and get blocked by the hierarchical preset)
Kennedy Tails https://www.daz3d.com/kennedy-tails-with-dforce-for-genesis-8-females
Kennedy Clothing https://www.daz3d.com/kennedy-dforce-clothing-and-accessories-for-genesis-8-females
PreT Girl's Fringe Hair https://www.daz3d.com/pret-girls-fringe-hair-for-genesis-8-females
Petite Style Dress https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-petite-style-dress-and-scarf-set-for-genesis-8-females
Petite Style Clothing Set https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-petite-style-clothing-set-for-genesis-8-females
The above two are a simple dress, a top and pants. No reason for hierarchical presets at all!
This is also a worrying trend as increasing numbers of new products use hierarchical presets. If you wish to include them, fine, but please also include the normal materials presets too. Ditto for poses.
I would also suggest products in store that use hierarchical presets should be clearly marked on the product page. Especially if the vendor cannot be bothered to include the normal presets too.
Also, I think I ought to point out that I sculpt the majority of my characters using the Growing Up Youth Morphs. Child characters tend to distort hair. Some hair products are worse than others for this. Which is another reason I use the same clothing and hair across different figure generations. Finding hair suitable for children is bad enough, without the additional headaches of hair distorting around the neck and the blocking by hierarchical presets. Quite often - especially in hair with tails - I will parent the hair to a group and then parent the group to the character's head and adjust manually. Even if the base figure is G8, I still run into the hierarchical preset issue because the hair is not actually auto fitted to the figure, just 'parented to a group which is parented to the figure'. Parenting hair in this way avoids the distortions caused by the Youth Morphs.
I don't have any of those. As I said above, it should be fine to have the items fitted to the desired figure as long as they are parented to the original figure - although if these are things you use repeatedly saving a rgular Materials preset is probably simplest.
I don't knoww hy 3DU would use hierarchical presets here, but ti might be for ease of use (with the original base figure) since it would be possible to load the products and set materials without having to change the selection from the base figure.
Yes, and saving as a regular materials preset is what I have been doing. But the point is, why should we have to do that now increasing numbers of products come with hierarchical presets?
This obviously becomes increasingly tiresome when you have to go through and save, sometimes, over a hundred different presets. Though, if I run into a situation where a product has 100s of hierarchical pose or materials presets I will save the ones I feel I will make use of the most.
Of course, I can also load a dummy G8 figure in the scene. Fit the clothes and hair to the figure. Apply the hierarchical textures. Adjust the textures to suit the lighting, and then refit or parent the hair and clothes to G3. Then delete the G8 dummy. But again... why should we go through these extra steps?
Not sure how the hierarchical presets are for 'ease of use'. After loading the characters, the method for applying clothing and texture presets is exactly the same. Just hierarchical presets block us from using the items on other figure generations, or indeed, often block us from using a specific item from an outfit or a specific pose in a pose set.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/512171/craig-tough-guy-hair-stuck-with-one-hair-color#latest
another to add to the list by looks
Just ran across this myself finally with a pose set. While I may keep this one because it has some things I need, in the future if the product does not specifically state it is heirarchical whether poses or materials and it doesn't work on G8 or G3 for just something as simple as applying textures or poses, I will be returning it and getting a refund and stating exactly why. I already have enough to do without having to break my workflow and loading a specific character, applying a pose, saving as a NORMAL pose, and applying to the character I want. I also don't want to have to load a full outfit on a specific character, apply the textures then fit the clothing or even the single clothing item to the character I want to use.
I must be missing something. I really like the Hpose. Example, holding a gun. I usually use a pose for the character, then tweak the pose for the scene. The Hpose then resets the gun correctly in the hand. I then do slight adjustments to get the aiming right.
One problem with Hposes. When saving hierarchical poses, there is no capacity to save pose controls. So a pose for G8 that uses "fingers grasp" fails when saved as an Hpose. Is there a workaround? Also the inability to shift-click and select many items at once is mildly annoying.
Thanks