Collars and Ties

marblemarble Posts: 7,500

What is it with collars and ties? Are they such a huge challenge to PAs? They are certainly a huge challenge for me to get one to look real (or even to fit).

I've just been fiddling with the Trading Floor shirt and tie and it seems to be impossible to prevent the tie from poking through the back of the collar. And the collar does not look real in anything but the base pose. I don't have G8M so perhaps things have improved since the clothes produced for G3M but, looking at many of the promo pictures, I doubt it. I'm also a bit wary of buying G8M clothes to retro-fit to G3M - not sure that it works that well. However, if anyone can suggest a solution for G3M I would appreciate it. I should add that my characters are never standard G3M ... I always have characters morphed to my liking but they are certainly not monsters.

 

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Comments

  • zombietaggerungzombietaggerung Posts: 3,759
    edited June 2021

    Collars always seem to be terrible on men's clothes, but for G3 I would say this: https://gumroad.com/l/m701?recommended_by=library has the best collar I've seen. And it's by a PA that has a shop here, so I'm not sure why they never sold it here.

    Post edited by zombietaggerung on
  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 1,183
    The clothing converters by Riversoft and Sickleyield might help a bit, IIRC the converted clothes do have quite a number of helper morphs including neck and throat adjustment morphs. There is a G8M to G3M clothing converter.
  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 1,183
    edited June 2021

    Collars always seem to be terrible on men's clothes, but for G3 I would say this: https://gumroad.com/l/m701?recommended_by=library has the best collar I've seen. And it's by a PA that has a shop here, so I'm not sure why they never sold it here.

    uzilite's M601 auto fits perfectly on G8M. *bow down*

    Post edited by CHWT on
  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500
    edited June 2021

    CHWT said:

    The clothing converters by Riversoft and Sickleyield might help a bit, IIRC the converted clothes do have quite a number of helper morphs including neck and throat adjustment morphs. There is a G8M to G3M clothing converter.

    I have seen that product and wondered whether it was necessary because I thought I had read that G3/G8 clothes were both ways compatible. Maybe in my dreams though.

    Needless to say that my men tend to wear T-Shirts and other casuals. The more I can avoid collars the better while ties are even more rare in my scenes. I also notice that ties tend to look so flat, like cardboard cut-outs. I guess the main market here is for fantasy and sci-fi where ties and shirts with collars are not much in demand.

    Post edited by marble on
  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,780
    edited June 2021

    I am not a fan of the RAS converters, I find they don't give a tight fit and warp to much, but apparently they work great for special items like coats, tunics and dresses which i rarely use.

    This is my goto for business shirts and ties. It's dforce on the shirt and pants, but looks ok without it and will probably fit G3 just fine https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-hc-dress-shirt-outfit-for-genesis-8-males

     

     

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  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,675

    Collars and ties are a huge issue on mens clothing.I wish someone would make a merchant resource for them in marvelous designer or whatever people use most, and sell it with the correct proportions. 
     

    Daz store could also demand better attention to detail on the men's shirts and ties, though.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    FSMCDesigns said:

    I am not a fan of the RAS converters, I find they don't give a tight fit and warp to much, but apparently they work great for special items like coats, tunics and dresses which i rarely use.

    This is my goto for business shirts and ties. It's dforce on the shirt and pants, but looks ok without it and will probably fit G3 just fine https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-hc-dress-shirt-outfit-for-genesis-8-males

     

     

     

    Yes, I agree that the HC products are always immaculately made. My only issue with them is that they often have few to zero morphs for tweaking and so don't go well with my dial-spun characters. But yes, that is probably the best example of a collar and tie set out there.

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024

    Since I'm personally called out for bad rigging/outfit I'll respond :) I do try to rig my outfits to the best of my abilities, and the neck area is particularly challenging.

    To clarify a bit on why its so challenging - you have a double layer for the collar very close together (to give the appearance of thickness at least and not a flat plane collar). Then you have another double layer for the tie that has to fit in between that - so that makes 4 layers very close to each other, 5 if you count the shirt itself under that. Then add to that mix a very short twist area for the neck. Real collars don't twist all the way to the side at the top when you twist the neck, so it requires custom JCMs to keep the shape believable. Once you start moving the corresponding polygons between the figure and the clothing far apart from where they are in relation to each other in the default position, you start getting poke through in custom shapes, and I think you'll find the same issue in all clothing that has that many layers in that area, especially custom shapes.

    I spend a lot of time to at least get things to pose without too much poke throughs in default poses and the base shape, and I spend a lot of time to support the more popular character shapes. At some point I have to call it quits because you can spend so many hours on it that the return is less than $2 per hour.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Mada said:

    Since I'm personally called out for bad rigging/outfit I'll respond :) I do try to rig my outfits to the best of my abilities, and the neck area is particularly challenging.

    To clarify a bit on why its so challenging - you have a double layer for the collar very close together (to give the appearance of thickness at least and not a flat plane collar). Then you have another double layer for the tie that has to fit in between that - so that makes 4 layers very close to each other, 5 if you count the shirt itself under that. Then add to that mix a very short twist area for the neck. Real collars don't twist all the way to the side at the top when you twist the neck, so it requires custom JCMs to keep the shape believable. Once you start moving the corresponding polygons between the figure and the clothing far apart from where they are in relation to each other in the default position, you start getting poke through in custom shapes, and I think you'll find the same issue in all clothing that has that many layers in that area, especially custom shapes.

    I spend a lot of time to at least get things to pose without too much poke throughs in default poses and the base shape, and I spend a lot of time to support the more popular character shapes. At some point I have to call it quits because you can spend so many hours on it that the return is less than $2 per hour.

    Sorry, my criticism must have seemed quite harsh. In truth, have been frustrated with all shirt collars but this one triggered my post because I spent quite a while trying to pose it and eventually gave up and removed the tie. He now looks a bit casual for the office but better than having his tie poke through his collar.

    Your explanation is very interesting and just reading it confirms my belief that trying to make my own content would be a big waste of time. I am quite patient but what you describe would drive me bonkers. And what you say about custom shapes is understood. I will always make my own shapes with the dials - that is one of the great pleasures of this hobby. One day, the technology of the clothing will catch up with that of the human figures ... I hope!

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024

    Using a push modifier with a custom weightmap to paint out poke throughs should actually help a lot for custom shapes, worth trying it out. I wish customs shapes were easier to cater for, but it is what it is right now. :) I can wish for a better system in Genesis 9.

  • SeraSera Posts: 1,675
    edited June 2021

    marble said:

    What is it with collars and ties? Are they such a huge challenge to PAs? They are certainly a huge challenge for me to get one to look real (or even to fit).

    I've just been fiddling with the Trading Floor shirt and tie and it seems to be impossible to prevent the tie from poking through the back of the collar. And the collar does not look real in anything but the base pose. I don't have G8M so perhaps things have improved since the clothes produced for G3M but, looking at many of the promo pictures, I doubt it. I'm also a bit wary of buying G8M clothes to retro-fit to G3M - not sure that it works that well. However, if anyone can suggest a solution for G3M I would appreciate it. I should add that my characters are never standard G3M ... I always have characters morphed to my liking but they are certainly not monsters.

    I used  SY G8 clones for G3 for some time and never had a problem. I don't usually do extreme poses/morphs and only used it for a few months before going to G8. But I did definitely do sitting poses and the like, and used custom and PA characters. So YMMV. 

    Post edited by Sera on
  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500
    edited June 2021

    certaintree38 said:

    marble said:

    What is it with collars and ties? Are they such a huge challenge to PAs? They are certainly a huge challenge for me to get one to look real (or even to fit).

    I've just been fiddling with the Trading Floor shirt and tie and it seems to be impossible to prevent the tie from poking through the back of the collar. And the collar does not look real in anything but the base pose. I don't have G8M so perhaps things have improved since the clothes produced for G3M but, looking at many of the promo pictures, I doubt it. I'm also a bit wary of buying G8M clothes to retro-fit to G3M - not sure that it works that well. However, if anyone can suggest a solution for G3M I would appreciate it. I should add that my characters are never standard G3M ... I always have characters morphed to my liking but they are certainly not monsters.

    I used  SY G8 clones for G3 for some time and never had a problem. I don't usually do extreme poses/morphs and only used it for a few months before going to G8. But I did definitely do sitting poses and the like, and used custom and PA characters. So YMMV. 

    OK thanks - good to know. I already have that SY product so I shall give it a whirl. I've avoided buying G8M clothes because I didn't think they would transfer nicely but I have lots of G8F clothing which I will try on G3F to make sure. 

    I do wish that Sickleyield would include promo pictures with contemporary clothing though. I know that there is a general obsession with the Historical Fantasy genre but some of us are not into it. Maybe I am just a bit overly aware of it at the moment because I've just been trawling through pages and pages of books looking for my next novel and a huge proportion have the kind of fantasy covers that immediately brings my mind back to DAZ.

    Post edited by marble on
  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663

    Mada said:

    Using a push modifier with a custom weightmap to paint out poke throughs should actually help a lot for custom shapes, worth trying it out. I wish customs shapes were easier to cater for, but it is what it is right now. :) I can wish for a better system in Genesis 9.

    What about clip on ties. Those have been around for years for men who don't want to bother tying a tie, or have the extra material around the neck and add to the sensation of being choked or strangled. Something like a clip on would be less stressful to make, less time to make, be faster to postion in a scene and less polygons for the computer to struggle with in a render, and finally less problems with poke through since the neck section will no longer be an issue.

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  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500
    edited June 2021

    Faeryl Womyn said:

    Mada said:

    Using a push modifier with a custom weightmap to paint out poke throughs should actually help a lot for custom shapes, worth trying it out. I wish customs shapes were easier to cater for, but it is what it is right now. :) I can wish for a better system in Genesis 9.

    What about clip on ties. Those have been around for years for men who don't want to bother tying a tie, or have the extra material around the neck and add to the sensation of being choked or strangled. Something like a clip on would be less stressful to make, less time to make, be faster to postion in a scene and less polygons for the computer to struggle with in a render, and finally less problems with poke through since the neck section will no longer be an issue.

    That might work. I think there are some (in real life) with little side-extensions so that they can be worn with an unbuttoned collar (I never have my top button closed even with a tie). I would imagine that might be an easy solution for those creating clothing sets for us here. Or maybe include visiblity zones?

    Come to think of it, I have just been through the exercise of learning how to create material zones so I can probably do it myself. 

    Post edited by marble on
  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024

    Actually that could work yes, even on ties that's modeled around the neck, just hide those polygons and only keep the knot section :)

  • WonderlandWonderland Posts: 7,040

    Faeryl Womyn said:

    Mada said:

    Using a push modifier with a custom weightmap to paint out poke throughs should actually help a lot for custom shapes, worth trying it out. I wish customs shapes were easier to cater for, but it is what it is right now. :) I can wish for a better system in Genesis 9.

    What about clip on ties. Those have been around for years for men who don't want to bother tying a tie, or have the extra material around the neck and add to the sensation of being choked or strangled. Something like a clip on would be less stressful to make, less time to make, be faster to postion in a scene and less polygons for the computer to struggle with in a render, and finally less problems with poke through since the neck section will no longer be an issue.

    I would totally buy a clip-on tie product with various styles of ties with tons of morphs to swing in different directions, be tight or loose and usable on G8F as well as male. Also a tie created like a necklace so it could work shirtless.  

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024
    edited June 2021

    I like that idea a lot :) it would be easier to rig a tie with moveable bones if it was used like a prop and the user moved it into place, and then dforce can take care of the last bit of draping (if its needed at all). What kind of designs would you guys like to see... trying to figure out if its worth it making a pack. I could make a morph to take a tie from thick to thin but you'll have some texture distortion - better to have 2 separate with material zones that makes it easy to drop a shader onto it.

     

    Post edited by Mada on
  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Mada said:

    I like that idea a lot :) it would be easier to rig a tie with moveable bones if it was used like a prop and the user moved it into place, and then dforce can take care of the last bit of draping (if its needed at all). What kind of designs would you guys like to see... trying to figure out if its worth it making a pack. I could make a morph to take a tie from thick to thin but you'll have some texture distortion - better to have 2 separate with material zones that makes it easy to drop a shader onto it.

     

    If you are thinking in terms of a pack - maybe include a bowtie? 

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024

    Rigging it with its own bones will give better movement... fitting it to a figure always cause that weird bending glued to the chest look that's very hard to get rid of with movement morphs. It does mean users would have to actually pose the tie instead of it moving automatically with the figure. Not fitting it will also prevent distortions caused by unsupported morphs so I think it would be the better way to go.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Mada said:

    Rigging it with its own bones will give better movement... fitting it to a figure always cause that weird bending glued to the chest look that's very hard to get rid of with movement morphs. It does mean users would have to actually pose the tie instead of it moving automatically with the figure. Not fitting it will also prevent distortions caused by unsupported morphs so I think it would be the better way to go.

    The payoff of having a poseable prop is much more desireable even if we lose the auto-fit facility. I don't mind moving it into place - I would prefer it, actually.

  • For a pack, what about a bolo tie?

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,839

    Misselthwaite said:

    For a pack, what about a bolo tie?

    Floyd would look good in a bolo. 

  • MadaMada Posts: 2,024

    How about adding a video on how I'm rigging the tie to go with it :)

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,839

    Mada said:

    How about adding a video on how I'm rigging the tie to go with it :)

    I always learn a lot from your videos. The more the merrier. 

  • Not fitting and poseable also means those of us who don't use the current generation of figures could also make use of it... that would be fabulous!

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644

    marble said:

    certaintree38 said:

    marble said:

    What is it with collars and ties? Are they such a huge challenge to PAs? They are certainly a huge challenge for me to get one to look real (or even to fit).

    I've just been fiddling with the Trading Floor shirt and tie and it seems to be impossible to prevent the tie from poking through the back of the collar. And the collar does not look real in anything but the base pose. I don't have G8M so perhaps things have improved since the clothes produced for G3M but, looking at many of the promo pictures, I doubt it. I'm also a bit wary of buying G8M clothes to retro-fit to G3M - not sure that it works that well. However, if anyone can suggest a solution for G3M I would appreciate it. I should add that my characters are never standard G3M ... I always have characters morphed to my liking but they are certainly not monsters.

    I used  SY G8 clones for G3 for some time and never had a problem. I don't usually do extreme poses/morphs and only used it for a few months before going to G8. But I did definitely do sitting poses and the like, and used custom and PA characters. So YMMV. 

    OK thanks - good to know. I already have that SY product so I shall give it a whirl. I've avoided buying G8M clothes because I didn't think they would transfer nicely but I have lots of G8F clothing which I will try on G3F to make sure. 

    I do wish that Sickleyield would include promo pictures with contemporary clothing though. I know that there is a general obsession with the Historical Fantasy genre but some of us are not into it. Maybe I am just a bit overly aware of it at the moment because I've just been trawling through pages and pages of books looking for my next novel and a huge proportion have the kind of fantasy covers that immediately brings my mind back to DAZ.

    You're right, I am definitely a big fan of medieval/Elizabethan/Georgian era fantasy.  :D  But that wouldn't stop me if the money was a real concern with it.

    The reason I do this making promos is that when I'm making promos for conversion sets I have limited time to do them and need to sell the product as hard as I can to as many people as possible, so I have to go for broke on using the most difficult outfits the product can handle in terms of them being drapey and layered, etc.  That being the case, regular contemporaries often don't make the cut.  Suiting is also harder to make look good in any circumstances in 3d, so I'm going to avoid it when possible if I can get most people to buy the product using something easier to deal with.  

    For the people asking about ties and collars, it's because they are literally one of the hardest clothing interactions to manage in a technical sense (and I say that having made these several times with different levels of success), right up there with loose-fitting male pants.  Making a clip-on would help, but doesn't fix one of the major problems, which is that a tie and shirt combo fights with every single body morph unless it's one that's very smooth through the chest area, which most male body morphs, to put it mildly, are not.  An artist can try using rigidity on the tie, but then it's going to look weird when the shirt under it molds to pectorals and it does not.  So you can manually do a bajillion body morphs, which isn't a cost-effective use of time, or you can do a small number and use them in the promos, or you can use rigidity anyway and do a bunch of fixit morphs and pray it's enough.  (Or, like some Genesis-era male shirts with ties, you can brazenly show the tie dipping into the chest against gravity at the edges of pectorals and hope for the best.)

    Don't even start me on dynamics.  dForce does not handle layering of multiple pieces with stiff fabric.  I'm not saying it doesn't handle it well, I'm saying it doesn't handle it at all.  Most "dynamic" suits you can buy have barely any effect of dForce on them for this reason, just a tiny adjustment of the drape on sim.  Using it on a tie is more likely to make the tie do the Spiky Samba than have it drape nicely on the shirt.  And if you did get a tie to drape properly with dForce and not explode, it's going to look too limp and thin to pass for realistic.  It's an untenable situation in general.

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,675

    An untied bowtie which lays on the collar would be sexy.

  • SeraSera Posts: 1,675

    @Mada Classic stripes and abstract patterns would be a must. Simple silks too. Also, my husband has some fun nerd ties that I think would be cool. Maybe something like this, in black and white, but in a pattern that gets around the copyright issue? And if you can give it a morph to make it fat or skinny, that would be icing. 

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  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    SickleYield said:

    marble said:

    certaintree38 said:

    marble said:

    What is it with collars and ties? Are they such a huge challenge to PAs? They are certainly a huge challenge for me to get one to look real (or even to fit).

    I've just been fiddling with the Trading Floor shirt and tie and it seems to be impossible to prevent the tie from poking through the back of the collar. And the collar does not look real in anything but the base pose. I don't have G8M so perhaps things have improved since the clothes produced for G3M but, looking at many of the promo pictures, I doubt it. I'm also a bit wary of buying G8M clothes to retro-fit to G3M - not sure that it works that well. However, if anyone can suggest a solution for G3M I would appreciate it. I should add that my characters are never standard G3M ... I always have characters morphed to my liking but they are certainly not monsters.

    I used  SY G8 clones for G3 for some time and never had a problem. I don't usually do extreme poses/morphs and only used it for a few months before going to G8. But I did definitely do sitting poses and the like, and used custom and PA characters. So YMMV. 

    OK thanks - good to know. I already have that SY product so I shall give it a whirl. I've avoided buying G8M clothes because I didn't think they would transfer nicely but I have lots of G8F clothing which I will try on G3F to make sure. 

    I do wish that Sickleyield would include promo pictures with contemporary clothing though. I know that there is a general obsession with the Historical Fantasy genre but some of us are not into it. Maybe I am just a bit overly aware of it at the moment because I've just been trawling through pages and pages of books looking for my next novel and a huge proportion have the kind of fantasy covers that immediately brings my mind back to DAZ.

    You're right, I am definitely a big fan of medieval/Elizabethan/Georgian era fantasy.  :D  But that wouldn't stop me if the money was a real concern with it.

    The reason I do this making promos is that when I'm making promos for conversion sets I have limited time to do them and need to sell the product as hard as I can to as many people as possible, so I have to go for broke on using the most difficult outfits the product can handle in terms of them being drapey and layered, etc.  That being the case, regular contemporaries often don't make the cut.  Suiting is also harder to make look good in any circumstances in 3d, so I'm going to avoid it when possible if I can get most people to buy the product using something easier to deal with.  

    For the people asking about ties and collars, it's because they are literally one of the hardest clothing interactions to manage in a technical sense (and I say that having made these several times with different levels of success), right up there with loose-fitting male pants.  Making a clip-on would help, but doesn't fix one of the major problems, which is that a tie and shirt combo fights with every single body morph unless it's one that's very smooth through the chest area, which most male body morphs, to put it mildly, are not.  An artist can try using rigidity on the tie, but then it's going to look weird when the shirt under it molds to pectorals and it does not.  So you can manually do a bajillion body morphs, which isn't a cost-effective use of time, or you can do a small number and use them in the promos, or you can use rigidity anyway and do a bunch of fixit morphs and pray it's enough.  (Or, like some Genesis-era male shirts with ties, you can brazenly show the tie dipping into the chest against gravity at the edges of pectorals and hope for the best.)

    Don't even start me on dynamics.  dForce does not handle layering of multiple pieces with stiff fabric.  I'm not saying it doesn't handle it well, I'm saying it doesn't handle it at all.  Most "dynamic" suits you can buy have barely any effect of dForce on them for this reason, just a tiny adjustment of the drape on sim.  Using it on a tie is more likely to make the tie do the Spiky Samba than have it drape nicely on the shirt.  And if you did get a tie to drape properly with dForce and not explode, it's going to look too limp and thin to pass for realistic.  It's an untenable situation in general.

     

    Wow, I'm glad I started this thread now. I'm certainly getting my money's worth of PA interection but then the two of you are particularly helpful which is always appreciated. I'm sure that you know best with the promos - what tends to sell, etc. All I ask is for at least one example of a "regular, contemporary" item - maybe a shirt or jeans? Perhaps it is as time consuming to do one as a set of promos in which case I understand.

    As for the fantasy genre - I was as taken with GoT as anyone and my favourite book of all time was Lord of the Rings but that's where it ends. I have no desire to make my own images of warrior queens and centaurs. 

  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663

    Well I'm glad everyone likes my suggestion for ties. I should point out some I found have what looks like a loose elastic loop for around the neck with the clip on type tie, let me see if I can find an image. Could be useful as well.

     

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