AO Maps: is it a must for G8.1?

CHWT

I to be honest have never been able to really like the skin of G8.1, it's just... not right and seems to have zero interaction with the surrounding environment (waxy and plasticy is acceptable for me, as long as it looks like a pile of wax or plastic in the actual surrounding environment). I can't pinpoint what's wrong but I suspect it's the AO maps in many figures. To me AO maps are unnecessary and I don't really understand why interfering what the specular maps are already doing within the Iray engine, except maybe saving memory resources I guess? Anyone tried to render G8.1 without the AO maps?

TheKD

What channel are people pluggin AO maps in?

The Blurst of Times

Probably no need for AO maps?

The specular channel seems to be a little over-tuned with the 8.1 figures, IMO. Stripping out the maps and/or turning up the dials on reflectivity is something that I've been doing lately.

This is Landon 8 skin converted to the 8.1 PBR shader, mostly using Michael 8.1's settings. (I think I turned Dual Lobe Specular Reflectivity up to 0.50 here, not sure if I removed all the maps or not.)
I should probably do more, though. That Dual Lobe Specularity channel seems to react the best to the surrounding light, so if I want wetter skin, I've played in that channel a lot. (Although no wet skin in this one.)

Also, no AO maps here. (I'll have to look at Michael 8.1 and Victoria 8.1's settings in this space...)

I also tend to customize the SSS maps to my tastes, like this one for Kiko (who uses the new PBR by default)... although maybe she's on the plastic side? Anyway, I try to increase the brightness/contrast a little on the default SSS/translucence maps for my own light setups.

I don't even know what that plastic thing means sometimes. The word gets thrown around. All I know is that if I want "Plastic" (like for an Android), I strip out the SSS maps and eliminate translucence. If you don't like the depth in the 8.1 skin, then increasing contrast in the translucent layer might help.

j cade

Okay so this is just my speculation and I have no secret pa knowledge or whatever. The "AO" maps a) in no way look like AO maps normally do, B) are in one of the shader slots actually referred to as "specular occlusion" C) look a great deal like good old specular weight maps D) only seem to effect the specular. My conclusion: they are indeed specular occlusion maps - basically the old specular weight maps with some extra control. (You can lighten things up at the edges for some extra fresnel-y-ness)

I don't think the specific maps are necessary, but I do think the channel should be turned on otherwise there is unnatural darkening at the edges of the figure

CHWT

The Blurst of Times said:

Probably no need for AO maps?

The specular channel seems to be a little over-tuned with the 8.1 figures, IMO. Stripping out the maps and/or turning up the dials on reflectivity is something that I've been doing lately.

This is Landon 8 skin converted to the 8.1 PBR shader, mostly using Michael 8.1's settings. (I think I turned Dual Lobe Specular Reflectivity up to 0.50 here, not sure if I removed all the maps or not.)
I should probably do more, though. That Dual Lobe Specularity channel seems to react the best to the surrounding light, so if I want wetter skin, I've played in that channel a lot. (Although no wet skin in this one.)

Also, no AO maps here. (I'll have to look at Michael 8.1 and Victoria 8.1's settings in this space...)

I also tend to customize the SSS maps to my tastes, like this one for Kiko (who uses the new PBR by default)... although maybe she's on the plastic side? Anyway, I try to increase the brightness/contrast a little on the default SSS/translucence maps for my own light setups.

I don't even know what that plastic thing means sometimes. The word gets thrown around. All I know is that if I want "Plastic" (like for an Android), I strip out the SSS maps and eliminate translucence. If you don't like the depth in the 8.1 skin, then increasing contrast in the translucent layer might help.

Your renders are absolutely stunning. My gripe for G8.1 is that they have constant dry/chalky/flat skin, like there is not enough light passing through/bouncing off the skin. I did not believe it was due to translucency or SSS because the SSS maps for G8 & G8.1 were basically the same (lightened version of diffuse map sometimes WITHOUT VEINS (yikes)) thanks for your tips!

CHWT

j cade said:

Okay so this is just my speculation and I have no secret pa knowledge or whatever. The "AO" maps a) in no way look like AO maps normally do, B) are in one of the shader slots actually referred to as "specular occlusion" C) look a great deal like good old specular weight maps D) only seem to effect the specular. My conclusion: they are indeed specular occlusion maps - basically the old specular weight maps with some extra control. (You can lighten things up at the edges for some extra fresnel-y-ness)

I don't think the specific maps are necessary, but I do think the channel should be turned on otherwise there is unnatural darkening at the edges of the figure

Thank you for your info and insight. I honestly did not & still do not know what's special about those AO maps lol. Guess I will just ditch them with the channels they were in still turned on.

Gator_2236745

The Blurst of Times said:

Probably no need for AO maps?

The specular channel seems to be a little over-tuned with the 8.1 figures, IMO. Stripping out the maps and/or turning up the dials on reflectivity is something that I've been doing lately.

This is Landon 8 skin converted to the 8.1 PBR shader, mostly using Michael 8.1's settings. (I think I turned Dual Lobe Specular Reflectivity up to 0.50 here, not sure if I removed all the maps or not.)
I should probably do more, though. That Dual Lobe Specularity channel seems to react the best to the surrounding light, so if I want wetter skin, I've played in that channel a lot. (Although no wet skin in this one.)

Also, no AO maps here. (I'll have to look at Michael 8.1 and Victoria 8.1's settings in this space...)

I also tend to customize the SSS maps to my tastes, like this one for Kiko (who uses the new PBR by default)... although maybe she's on the plastic side? Anyway, I try to increase the brightness/contrast a little on the default SSS/translucence maps for my own light setups.

I don't even know what that plastic thing means sometimes. The word gets thrown around. All I know is that if I want "Plastic" (like for an Android), I strip out the SSS maps and eliminate translucence. If you don't like the depth in the 8.1 skin, then increasing contrast in the translucent layer might help.

Nice renders @The Blurst of Times!  Enquiring minds want to know, what outfit is that on Kiko?

 

And to the OP, if the skin looks too dry to you, probably try changing the Dual Lobe Specular values first.  If you don't know, Specular Lobe 1 is the larger blurred reflection, and Specular Lobe 2 is the sharper highlights.  

takezo_3001

To get rid of the candle-wax look, you might want to turn on the specular rendering mode as that is a much more accurate lighting model than the default, stylistic render setting... It really is curious that daz has an accurate lighting model, yet doesn't have shaders that support it by default, and as a result, you have the majority of users that don't use it effectively.

But once you do some work within the existing shaders you can get some pretty amazing results, unless of course, a more stylistic realism is what you're after...

The Blurst of Times

CHWT said:

Your renders are absolutely stunning. My gripe for G8.1 is that they have constant dry/chalky/flat skin, like there is not enough light passing through/bouncing off the skin. I did not believe it was due to translucency or SSS because the SSS maps for G8 & G8.1 were basically the same (lightened version of diffuse map sometimes WITHOUT VEINS (yikes)) thanks for your tips!

Thanks :) Yeah, the SSS maps mostly seem to be brighter versions of the Diffuse maps, so that's why I try to increase the contrast to give them a little more "character". If the initial Iray render looks too gray or boring, then I increase the contrast in the translucence/SSS maps.

Also, I wanted to get to "wet skin", and it took a while to figure that out... with Dual Lobe Specularity seeming to do more than the Top Coat channel. So that's why I mostly dabble in Specularity weights & maps to get more shine.

I'm glad more PAs are working in the PBR shader, anyway. It gives me a chance to see what they are doing with all the different channels. New PBR shader characters are definitely things that I'm trying to collect these days if only to see how everyone uses the new shader.

CHWT

scott762_948aec318a said:

And to the OP, if the skin looks too dry to you, probably try changing the Dual Lobe Specular values first.  If you don't know, Specular Lobe 1 is the larger blurred reflection, and Specular Lobe 2 is the sharper highlights.  

takezo_3001 said:

To get rid of the candle-wax look, you might want to turn on the specular rendering mode as that is a much more accurate lighting model than the default, stylistic render setting... It really is curious that daz has an accurate lighting model, yet doesn't have shaders that support it by default, and as a result, you have the majority of users that don't use it effectively.

But once you do some work within the existing shaders you can get some pretty amazing results, unless of course, a more stylistic realism is what you're after...

The Blurst of Times said:

Thanks :) Yeah, the SSS maps mostly seem to be brighter versions of the Diffuse maps, so that's why I try to increase the contrast to give them a little more "character". If the initial Iray render looks too gray or boring, then I increase the contrast in the translucence/SSS maps.

Also, I wanted to get to "wet skin", and it took a while to figure that out... with Dual Lobe Specularity seeming to do more than the Top Coat channel. So that's why I mostly dabble in Specularity weights & maps to get more shine.

I'm glad more PAs are working in the PBR shader, anyway. It gives me a chance to see what they are doing with all the different channels. New PBR shader characters are definitely things that I'm trying to collect these days if only to see how everyone uses the new shader.

Thanks guys for the tips, will fiddle with the dual lobe specularity then!