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Rules for selling renders as billboards and 'backgrounds'?

MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675
in The Commons

how come everyone isnt doing it?

Comments

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,186

    I don't know if anyone would be willing to buy billboards that aren't to the level of detail and flexibility that someone like Riversoft offers. I don't know how much of their process is automated, but it's no small task to make the Now Crowd sets. Lots of people give away individual billboards and backgrounds on Renderosity, though.

  • narkfestmojonarkfestmojo Posts: 91

    it needs to be done from many different angles per character to be a decent product, that's a whole lot of rendering.

    Riversoft does it for 72 angles per character for (I counted) 31 characters in this example https://www.daz3d.com/now-crowd-billboards--water-fun

    6,696 Textures... Even with automation, it would still take a lot of GPU time.

     

    I have seen situations where a background in an environment is from rendering other Daz Assets like this one https://www.daz3d.com/sf-apartment uses a https://www.daz3d.com/greeble-city-blocks-04 render as a background.

    Sometimes you see a poster in an environment which is a rendering of Daz Assets, can't find an example, but I have seen it. Some HDRI's sets are spherical renderings of 3D assets, but I'm not sure if they are Daz Assets or created specifically for the sets.

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,186
    edited August 2021

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    Post edited by Gordig on
  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124

    I mean.. things here are specifically sold to you for render. And that includes commercial use of them.

    Haha.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,780

    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    Unfortunately it's not, but i am of a mindset that celling a render as a background takes away from the sale of the actual 3D product used in the background, so I wish it was.  I petrsonally would never purchase any

  • PixelSploitingPixelSploiting Posts: 898

    Rendering a single HDRI in Daz can take hours. So here's why HDRI made of Daz assets are in store.

  • SeraSera Posts: 1,675
    edited August 2021
    The 3d asset can be lit differently and moved in all directions and kit bashed and have its textures changed. The hdri of that model is convenient, prelit and easy on your resources. One is about versatility and control while the second is more about speed and simplicity. They are kind of selling different things with different advantages, so I think it's fine. But as for billboards, I usually avoid them unless I am using DoF because they just don't take shadows the same way as the actual model and that really bothers me. I don't see a lot of them in the gallery either, as far as I know. So maybe they aren't that popular to begin with?
    Post edited by Sera on
  • doubledeviantdoubledeviant Posts: 1,186
    edited August 2021
    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    (This isn't an argument directed at either of you - rather, I'm using your posts as a starting point for this thought).

    The permissive license is a big part of why some of us purchase these assets. Risking that arrangement for the sake of curtailing an imaginary epidemic would be incredibly stupid. Simple terms that allow for commercial use of renders in your projects - that is *the* factor that sold me on using Daz products.

    However, I don't object to Daz rejecting low-effort content - keeping that kind of thing out of the store hinders those who might be trying to make a quick buck without offering anything of real value - and it does so without altering Daz's business and legal relationship with customers.
    Post edited by doubledeviant on
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,830

    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    A background set which is a direct ripoff of a single set would usually be considered as derivative work competing with the original product, and so would not be approved.

  • scorpioscorpio Posts: 8,479

    Leana said:

    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    A background set which is a direct ripoff of a single set would usually be considered as derivative work competing with the original product, and so would not be approved.

    I think that may be wrong, it has been done in the past and I remember the discussion about it at the time; those products are still in the store.

  • mdingmding Posts: 1,278

    Val Cameron from Dreamlight created an HDRI package here from a stonemason product. So I guess it must be legal. And it seems to be not only a lot of rendertime but also quite some work involved, as you receive his lighting. Compared to the real thing of course the HDRI product is quite limited, but for people with weak hardware it seems to be tempting. Of course I don't know if there's an agreement between stonemason and cameron behind the scenes, but I always stick to the rule: as long as what you create is 2D, it's yours...

  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,186

    doubledeviant said:

    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    The permissive license is a big part of why some of us purchase these assets.
    Risking that arrangement for the sake of curtailing an imaginary epidemic would be incredibly stupid. 

    .....wait, what? 

  • MistaraMistara Posts: 38,675

    i was thinking of the old mil environments. like the magic falls.

    so if i rendered like a koi pond and put it on an alpha cutout, is it legal to sell?

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,922
    As a slightly different input into this, Renderosity have recently put in a requirement that any 2D images of 3D objects given as freebies (PNG backgrounds, PNG tubes or billboards) need the permission of the 3D object copyright holder. This is presumably a reflection of Renderosity's mild concern over the copyright situation, and their get-out to prevent themselves having legal problems in the future. I suspect that it would cover you if you could do the same.
  • doubledeviantdoubledeviant Posts: 1,186
    edited August 2021
    Gordig said:

    doubledeviant said:

    Gordig said:

    narkfestmojo said:

    Not sure what Daz's rules are for it, because I could imagine products being created that are basically just rip off's of existing products by rendering them as backgrounds.

    Believe it or not, I don't think that would violate the EULA, although the store might be hesitant to approve such an item.

    The permissive license is a big part of why some of us purchase these assets.
    Risking that arrangement for the sake of curtailing an imaginary epidemic would be incredibly stupid. 

    .....wait, what? 

    Changing the license - the open nature of which is a primary draw for some customers - to address a concern that seems largely hypothetical would be a bad idea. In other words, there doesn't seem to be an epidemic of low-effort backgrounds and other such products (made from other assets) to justify risking changes to something that Daz gets pretty much right as-is.

    It wasn't meant to be an argument directed at you or anyone else in particular - the quoted string was simply the impetus leading to that chain of thoughts, as I mentioned.
    Post edited by doubledeviant on
  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,186

    Ooooh, ok. I just wasn't tracking your use of the word "epidemic" and thought you were indulging in some weird COVID rant or something. 

  • SeraSera Posts: 1,675
    edited August 2021

    richardandtracy said:

    As a slightly different input into this, Renderosity have recently put in a requirement that any 2D images of 3D objects given as freebies (PNG backgrounds, PNG tubes or billboards) need the permission of the 3D object copyright holder. This is presumably a reflection of Renderosity's mild concern over the copyright situation, and their get-out to prevent themselves having legal problems in the future. I suspect that it would cover you if you could do the same.

    This is upsetting. I thought any renders were fine with the standard license. 

    Post edited by Sera on
  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,186

    certaintree38 said:

    richardandtracy said:

    As a slightly different input into this, Renderosity have recently put in a requirement that any 2D images of 3D objects given as freebies (PNG backgrounds, PNG tubes or billboards) need the permission of the 3D object copyright holder. This is presumably a reflection of Renderosity's mild concern over the copyright situation, and their get-out to prevent themselves having legal problems in the future. I suspect that it would cover you if you could do the same.

    This is upsetting. I thought any renders were fine with the standard license. 

    Daz's license doesn't dictate what Renderosity allows in its store.

  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663

    All I know is if they change the TOS over this issue, there is nothing to stop it from reaching beyond and suddenly you are no longer allowed to render any image or animation without permission. Basically eliminating the majority of the artists and animators that are out there.

    The vendors know the rules when they agree to sell their products through a particular store. If they did not want their items used in billboards and the like, don't sell at that store. Simple solution to a simple problem.

  • mdingmding Posts: 1,278

    In the EULA this could be a problem: 

    provided that User may not in any case publish, market, distribute, transfer, sell or sublicense any renderings, animations, software applications, data or any other product from which any Content, or any part thereof, or any substantially similar version of the Content can be separately exported, extracted or de-compiled into any re-distributable form or format.

     As this is the second thread about this subject, I opened a ticket and asked DAZ to answer our question in this thread, as we can only guess.

  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663
    edited August 2021

    Oh that..What Daz wants is whatever you use their products for, someoen is not going to be able to rip or copy models or textures from you creations and start giving away or selling them. There is the fact that a lot of people are refusing to use their own imagination to create anything and instead are simply recreating what they see in movies and games. Game of Thrones is an example, I seriously doubt Emilia Clarke gave anyone permission to recreate her likeness to make money. I also doublt HBO, the production company, or the original creators of the clothing and hairstyles of the show, gave permission for anyone to recreate 3D models of these items. A further insult is the fact a large number of people are actually ripping models out of games, converting them for use is Daz and are either giving away or selling them, which is mostly what that is referring to.

    Post edited by Faeryl Womyn on
  • mdingmding Posts: 1,278

    Ah, I didn't think of the textures... Nevertheless, IMO Daz should give us an answer.

  • IvyIvy Posts: 7,165

    Maybe the reason to many people don't try to sell them is because there are so many freebies bill boards avilable. all you do is have to look for them.

     

    Here is my freebie bill board/pane tool kit for FREE https://sharecg.com/v/92902/gallery/21/DAZ-Studio/Ivys-Magic-Pane-prop

    Enjoy smiley

     

  • mdingmding Posts: 1,278

    Thankyou @Ivy !

  • diogenese19348diogenese19348 Posts: 927

    Selling a commercial render is part of the EULA, there weren't any stipulations except it has to be a 2d render.  I think Renderocity's move had more to do with not wanting the store cluttered up with 2D background renders, they never were particularly good sellers anyway.

  • Faeryl WomynFaeryl Womyn Posts: 3,663

    Thank you Ivy.

  • Roman_K2Roman_K2 Posts: 1,252

    Looks very nice.

    I wonder if Ivy or someone else could describe the Magic Pane set a bit more? So this is a collection of images applied to pane geometries, perhaps with transparency maps to create irregular edges between the layered panes where useful, and it's bundled up into a regular, DAZ Studio type of resource?

    I particularly don't get the part about the "Iray presets". If I have scene A-B-C (or U-V-W) and I put a plane primitive into that scene and I apply a graphic to the plane - some imagery saved in the form of a .JPG file (say), do I thereafter need something special to the pane in the... Surface tab in DS say, before I render it using... Iray light set X-Y-Z???

  • IvyIvy Posts: 7,165

    Roman_K2 said:

    Looks very nice.

    I wonder if Ivy or someone else could describe the Magic Pane set a bit more? So this is a collection of images applied to pane geometries, perhaps with transparency maps to create irregular edges between the layered panes where useful, and it's bundled up into a regular, DAZ Studio type of resource?

    I particularly don't get the part about the "Iray presets". If I have scene A-B-C (or U-V-W) and I put a plane primitive into that scene and I apply a graphic to the plane - some imagery saved in the form of a .JPG file (say), do I thereafter need something special to the pane in the... Surface tab in DS say, before I render it using... Iray light set X-Y-Z???

    My magic pane is pretty self explanatory .The pane prop geometry was made in Carrara 8.1 pro and converted for daz 4.11.  but will work in daz versions up to 4.12 after that I have no idea if the panes load or work because I have not moved beyond daz 4.12 myself. so I have not supported or nor updated it for Filament or daz 4.14 or 4.15

    But the jest of  of this freebie  is as you described the Magic Pane set is a collection panes used to places different types of images as either backgrounds or foreground props.  I recommend using PNG formats for when creating your own trasnparent maps for the pane images to give best results. You can simple add your own images by appling to the pane geometries by clicking the pane and then just change the images under the surface tab.Some panes have transparency map layers to create layered effects to such as fog or lighting sun rays etc. Those are in PNG format as well 

    Iray emissive panes are just that. lighten panes.  simply  click the pane and apply the emissive setting that is required for your render. . there is a invisible pane to give you ghost lights effect  to light a scene without any image at all.

     The iray pane setting are for use when you are rendering in Iray for best results when you are rendering scenes with iray characters or props in the scene.

    As I said its pretty self explanatory. there is a read me file in the download.

     I use these panes all the time in animations it will save me a ton of gpu resources for detailed backgrounds

    Play around with it and have fun.

    Good Luck

     

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,701

    Please remember that CS replies are addressed to a particular person in response to a particular query and are not for posting in the forum - as the subsequent discussion showed posting the CS replies does not really help to clarify the general issue.

    If you have a specific query about a product you intend to create you should contact Sales support at Daz before committing to any work.

This discussion has been closed.