Discussion on Inclusion of "Before and After Post Work" Addition to Contest Entries
DAZ_ann0314
Posts: 2,847
Here is a spot to discuss your thoughts on whether or not we should request people to post their raw 3D Application Render as well as an entrants "Final" post worked render as part of the "Entry" process. Feel free to share your thoughts on this just please respect that each person may have varying opinions :) I will review what is said here and let everyone know what the CV Team and myself decide :)
Thanks for providing feedback and please feel free to add any other ideas you may have. The CV Team and myself are always happy to have input from the participants to make the learning and contests as useful and fun as possible :)
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Comments
It's an interesting question as, for one, I am interested to see what people do via postwork; what I do is screw stuff up, generally, which is why I tend not to do any ;)
I presume it would have no real impact upon the judging as it'd be the final image that'd be being judged, or might things be .. dropped down the chart if they consisted of a vast amount of postwork, making them more example of usign a graphics package and not a 3D application.
That's definitely a better proposition than not allowing any post-processing at all. The question that follows, though, is what would we do in the case of render layers? Would we require that all render layers be posted along with the final image?
Personally I try to do as little postwork as possible (I don't really consider multi-layer renders postwork)
If I can find a way to do it in Daz, that's where I do it and I found the LIE to be extremely useful in cutting out nearly all postwork.
To me, postwork is used to hide or obscure mistakes in rendering ("I didn't get that lighting quite right so I'll add some flare or brush strokes or whatever to cover it up")
There are a number of reasons why I think the contest should include before post work and after post work images. In this case, the contest was lighting, and the objective as written by Dollygirl was the following:
I read application of your choice to mean "3-d application of your choice".
As different people have posted their artwork in the WIP thread and what techniques they used to obtain their lighting effects, it has become obvious that different people had vastly different opinions regarding what was "keeping within the spirit of the contest". What to one person was a normal proceedure for them in postwork, and thus within the spirit of the contest for themselves, was not normal for other people. This ambiguity has caused friction, and frustration to the artists. In more than one case, two different artists took two different approaches to the same lighting problem, one person using the 3-d application to do most of the work of getting the lighting just right, and the other person using the 3-d application to do the rudimentary lighting setup, but doing the majority of the balance of getting the light just right in a 2-d appication. If there were before and after pictures posted along with a blurb explaining what was done in postwork, everyone would see just exactly what was done when and how, and it would not only be forthright, it would be educational. To elaborate:
I think to a certain degree, it is the ambiguity of the rules that is the source of frustration. Competing is motivational when everyone feels they are playing on a level playing field. But when a lot of the participants see the objective as being to use the 3-d program to do most of the work, and then a couple participants post images that achieve the same results that someone has been working to achieve within the 3-d program but done with much less time and effort in a 2-d program, then competing becomes de-motivational; Participants feel the judging will not take into account the fact that they took the harder route to obtain similar results.
Of course the real objective is to learn...
Daz Ann stated that judges would know the difference between what was done in 2-d with filters and composting, versus what was done primarily in a 3-d application. This is fine... but the primary objective of the contest is not winning a prize or what the judges think. The primary objective is for the contest to be a learning tool. The WIP thread is not the only learning tool. Seeing what others post in the entries thread is a learning tool... I think before postwork and after postwork images should be posted so that new artists can learn what the limitations of the 3-d rendering really are. I am not sure it is helpful to see a beautifully "rendered" image, and for the new artist to wish they could achieve the same results, and wonder why they can't, which is what often happens. The truth may be that the new artist does not struggle with ligthing within the 3-d application as much as they believe themselves to, but they struggle with their post work. But if there isn't before postwork and after postwork pictures shown, the new artist does not see what parts are attributable to the 3-d program and what to the 2-d postwork. They don't have the information to know how and where to improve.
Per Ann, in her clarification of postwork:
I suggest that if the final image is considered regardless of how people achieved it, and participants are going to be judged on the quality of their postwork, that a second "WIP" thread be created for participants obtain help with using 2-d applications to "tweak" their final render. More on different participants interpretations of "tweaking" in another post, and why the interpretations of rules and ambiguity can lead what is intended to be helpful and motivational about having a contest instead lead to the competition aspect to be frustrating and demotivational.
To sum up, I think two images should be submitted because the rule about what is, and isn't postwork remains ambiguous, and the most honest and learning geared answer is to let everyone, participants and judges, see what parts the 3-d and 2-d applications played in making the final image.
I cannot make a judgement or a decision, but as a fellow participant, I can say what I feel would not only be fair from the perspective of a contest, but also what would be educationally beneficial for those who don't have your depth of knowledge
As you explained over in the WIP thread, your final image consists of multiple layers? You have the rendering of the background with three different photographic filter effects applied to it, a lens distortion, minor chromatic aberration, and vignette, which are layered. Then for the foreground part of your image, you have three images composited, one for the the rim-lighting, one for the cast stained glass window light, and one for the uberenvironment. Then, the foreground and background are put back together. As a fellow participant, I would feel it would be fair for you to post as many layers as you needed to composite to create the final image, and in the case of photographic filters, include the original image before filters as well as labeling what filter was used on each image. And then post the final image as well. That way the viewer will know which parts were created how. I think the compilation you did, if you added th basic render of the background, and if it was labelled, would be an appropriate way to handle it. (I re-post them here, so readers will know what I am talking about without having to go digging for them.)
I really appreciate that you have been so forthcoming about your process. Your depth of knowledge of blender is impressive, you have a really nice eye for creating beautiful things combined with a good deal of talent in achieving your objectives, and obviously have some artistic training somewhere along the lines too. It comes together to make a very lovely image. Furthermore, because you explained what you did, and I happen to be a blenderite too, I can now go look for those lovely filters and maybe learn something myself. Its a good thing to be challenged!
Oops I actually misread which forum it was so you can ignore this post
Wendy, the New Users contest is already run with a WIP thread and an entries only thread. This thread is meant as a discussion thread for the New Users to discuss what they would like to see. going forward.
Is this a general discussion about the New Users Contest? Or is it for the February contest only and those who participate this month?
If it is only for February, change the contest rules a few days before the deadline, I wouldn´t like. But I´m not participating this month, so probably my opinion can be ignored.
A general discussion about the New Users Contest.
It is a discussion on changing or refining the contest rules for future months, it would not apply to the current month though. This month's rules are the rules we have currently posted :) This is in regards to possibly making changes from say March onward (or possibly April) depends on how much of a discussion on it there is since March is just around the corner :)
Since this would potentially be part of the discussion going on, I cannot say for sure, but my personal opinion is that we would not require you to post every single layer. That said a screenshot of the multiple renders use could be beneficial to those following so I think it would be welcomed by the participants but not necessarily required since that does take a bit of work to kinda load them all up in a way you can visibly see and screenshot them all and knowing how many different passes can be done requiring you to post them all individually could wind up with you needing more than 5 "image" slots LOL So screenshot only is my thought (kinda like the one you posted I believe in the wip thread and only if you would choose to do that :)
Just voicing my opinion, to post only the final image in the entries thread is more appealing to me.
I don´t think my entries were heavy postworked and it will not have much of an impact to take away the vignette effect or the tint. Thats everything I have added to the contest entrys.
Per example, I dont care about poke through. Thats what the stamp tool in Gimp is for and it is been fixed in a few minutes.
I will not waste 30 Minutes or more time to create some Deformers to make the poke through go away and make the plain render look better.
Now it is required to post the plain render with the poke through and I feel uncomfortable wit that. Because like it is mentioned before, I reveal in that way my poor render skills and my lazyness in using the tools the 3D Application gives me. :-)
Maybe I´m happy with the final image, but not happy with my entry as a whole, because of the plain render I have to include.
Well, the point of the contest is for it to be a learning experience for beginners to improve their work. I think all along maybe people with experience in 2-d have been doing a lot of techniques in 2-d to help along their unwillingness to get the render right in 3-d- and those new to 3-d AND 2-d are trying to get those same results, not knowing where they are missing the mark. They are trying to emulate the results of great art in 3-d, when it was something that their fellow artists had been actually accomplished in 2-d... See the statue image in my last post with regards to this months lighting contest. Another artist with a similar issue in getting a backlit image to have the right amount of light spent weeks and multiple renders getting the light just right, and then another artist accomplishes the same goal by using a 2-d program and compositing of different opacity layers from 4 differently lit images, none of which comes close to getting the lighting right in a render in a 3-d program. Is it fair to the first artist who used the 3-d program? Nowhere in the rules does it say that you need to declare what post work you have done in 2-d, just what programs you have used. If it hadn't come up as an issue in the WIP thread, the first artist would be looking at that statue and asking himself how did the second artist accomplish that in3-d? (Not to mention asking himself what camera DOF allowed the blurriness in the background while keeping the crispness in the foreground, what volumetrics camera gave the distortion, etc. The answer being none of the above, he didn't do it in 3-d, he did it in 2-d postwork.) I think fellow artists deserve that integrity from each other.
OR, our fellow artists are wondering how someone had the time in just a month to do such amazing work when they were spending hours and hours with a deformer. Not only that, but those who don't know those 2-d tricks are even available are spending those hours doing those deformers, and other mechanisms inside the 3-d program, that others dont spend the time doing, to get the same result. (See Linwelly in this months WIP thread) Another example would be my bear's nose and the poke through issues. I knew I could fix that in 2-d, but getting the surfaces right was in my opinion part of getting the lighting right, they go hand in hand. And so instead of taking the 2-d shortcut, i made 20 different displacement maps to get the relative height of the fur correct in relation to the other elements. Without showing before and after postwork, you don't really know who is using skill in the 3-d program and who is using skill in the 2-d program. I was under the impression the objective of the contest is to help people push their 3-d skills, not to see who can make things the easiest by employing 2-d fixes... but without showing both images, there isn't a good way for new artists to know the difference. I think the contest should stop comparing apples and oranges, and instead compare BOTH apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
I think showing what is done in 2-d vs what is done in 3-d will be a very helpful tool. It will ease a lot of frustration for new users, and provide opportunity for growth, and also put everyone on the same playing field.
The need for a 2D application is not only for postworking. You can create your own Bump, Displacement and Opacity maps. Or recolor items and alter the textures of clothing with a few clicks. As much as you use the 2D application in your workflow you get more familiar with image manipulation and its techniques. Sticking layers on top of each other is just the way 2D applications like Gimp and Photoshop work.
The New Users Contest is open to any 3D application. As far as I know Poser, Carrara, Luxrender and many others have the >Multipass Render< Feature built in. Actually DAZ Studio seems to be one of the few exception were a manual workaround, Plug-Ins or scripts are required to get the output as single layers.
So people who are not familiar with DAZ Studio but have a background with other 3D applications will not see it as a problem when they adopt a workflow they have learned in a different application.
In my opinion the New Users Contest is also about the artwork and the final image. The participants can find their own workflow by practicing and learning techniques they are comfortable with in creating this single piece of art.
Some may have the goal to improve their rendering skills and by that be more focused on the 3D part. But others may see the rendering only as a step in a process.
Like I said before, I´m not a heavy postworker and I guess for me it will not be a big problem to include a plain render as the entry.
But it is also my opinion, everyones workflow includes a 2D Application, unless it is said otherwise.
Poser also is limited with "multi-passes" unless using an additional plugin really. Most other apps though it is more part of the app but those apps tend to cost more financially than Poser or DAZ Studio do and so that is somewhat in the price of those apps rather than getting it separate. Given DS is free, having to pay a little for multi-pass is still a far more inexpensive approach than needing to buy a $200.00+ app to have it. So for those using DS, I would recommend possibly peaking at the options for Multi-Pass product wise on the site as it is handy :)
Specifically in the context of the New User Contest, I have little issue with postworking. After all, the WIP renders are available in the WIP thread anyway. If the final entry version differs a lot, it's clear that postwork was used, and the mods can - if necessary - suggest using a less postworked version.
Obviously, using postwork to avoid the actual point of the monthly contest is a no-go (and it's also shortsighted - we're doing this to learn new things, after all)..
That said, I think that while postwork can be an easy way out, it can also be a very efficient way of adding additional details. A good example is adding strands of hair. Tackling that strictly with 3D is quite a lot of work (you'd need to sculpt hair strands, I guess; or at the least paint transmats for a primitive) - in postwork, it's just a few brush strokes. It can simply be more efficient to add a tattoo, or god rays, or dust clouds in postwork - as long as doing these in 3D isn't the point of the exercise.
The lines between 2D and 3D are blurry anyway - consider that you can render depth masks (using AOA's cameras, for instance), and use those to desaturate, blur or fog parts of the image.
Basically, postworking is a crucial part of 3D work, in my opinion, even though it can be abused.
Actually it is interesting that you mention Crepuscular rays (God Rays) as I posted an image some time back describing how I hade made the rays within my program of choice and a PA then took my idea, worked on it and released a product to make them in DS
http://www.daz3d.com/simple-godrays plus a follow up product http://www.daz3d.com/expanded-godrays-celestial-bodies
In general, at the moment, we do not require participation in the WIP Thread. Reason being that some people prefer to watch and follow and then Enter but don't necessarily want feedback for whatever reason which to me is perfectly fine but does make it so that there is no comparison on those entries. I don't want to exclude someone though that doesn't really want feedback or perhaps would take the feedback too much to heart or discourage them from participating.
I think as new users, it is important to be careful to consider 2 things:
1. I think new users should be careful to say "the 3-d application can't do that" as some have said. This may or may not be true, some people may not know exactly how much can be done. (You didn't say that anything couldn't be done in 3-d so you had to do it in 2-d, but another poster said so. As self proclaimed new users, I think we also proclaim that we dont know how much we don't know, otherwise we might not be new users, if that makes any sense.)
2. Second, what is difficult or time consuming for one person to do within the 3-d application may be easy for another; we all come to the table proclaiming to be beginners in our in experience with 3-d, but we may have different areas we need to work on. Working on those skills and practicing them is what makes them easier, and doing them in the 3-d pipeline may end up being faster and more efficient than the 2-d.
To speak to the efficiency of 2d vs 3d:It would be really inefficient to take each and every frame of a movie, for example, and paint in hair. And in a game-writing scenario, the hair needs to be right while rendering from within the gaming program, so painting is not even an option. For the contest we are creating still frames that seem like art with no further end, but the render may have some purpose beyond this... and learning the sklls to take it beyond being a pretty picture is valuable to me, anyways. It may not be a priority to others
And as for the ease of using the 3-d app.. You mentioned not knowing whether sculpting was then ticket for good hair, or manipulating transmaps, and the answer is this, and other things too, could work. You and I both are at a place where we just dont know how much th program can do. We research, we learn, we practice As for the transmap route, for example, making a bunch of maps for hair is not easy, but a skill I am working on dilligently, and it is becoming easier and less time consuming. For me it is much easier than painting individual hairs in photoshop... hair is one of the reasons I wanted to do DAZ because I liked the results people were getting. It has been a process of research and discovery for me to learn that spec 1 hair highlights are done with narrow, high spec 1 setting, with a seroiusly over contrasted, excessively bright and dark tmap, spec 2 with a wider and less high setting, and another contrast map, the individual hair strands are "sculpted" with displacement maps, and the "wispyness" of the hairs on the edges can be done by creating new groups and altering their oppacity (I havent done some parts yet). My hair doesnt look perfect for sure, but I am not embarrassed by it, and my skill will only get better as I practice. Moreover what I learn here is translating into knowledge that I intend to bring back to blender (another free program) when I get back to making my own figures. Hair was a quitting point for me, but a mountain I intend to conquer.
Moreover, I haven't learned (yet) to make my own shaders, the possibilities of layering multiple shader layers such as with the new shader out by Omnifreaker gives even more possibilities for hair. (And now that I know it is okay to composite multiple images, such as one rendered with just hair, and one rendered with the figure and the rest of the environment I won't be unable to use a multti-layer shader because of the time constraint of possible 45 hour long renders, ;-) )
And so what I think people might be saying when they say doing the work in postwork is "more efficient", is that creating an effect during the post work pipeline as opposed to the rendering pipelne is more efficient for them because they have greater skills in the 2-d framework, and less experienced and practiced skills in the 3-d framework. Where skills lie is different for everyone, which is why I think comparing 2 images, before and after postwork, is critical. I think those who have become efficient at postwork deserve kudos as much as those who have become efficient in the ability to create near-finished looking initial renders. Both skills are important in different contexts based on the final purpose of the image, which the contest may merely be a stepping stone for reaching.
I think it can be abused, yes. But I also want to give people the benefit of the doubt and say that their version of the limitations is different from mine. What is going on inside someone elses head is beyond my ability to read. There may be temptation to show off a stellar image and a fear to reveal imperfections. Many artists dont like their limitations, which is what makes those who show off their work in the WIP thread brave. I think pre and post post-work entries is critical to contest integrity.
In general it doesn't necessarily come down to "what someone has more experience or practiced skill with" but more to do with their artistic interests or what they may be more inclined to in general. I, for instance, find 2D easier for me to learn than 3D because I have a general love of painting (though no previous experience with it till I came to 3D) so to me spending 20 hours painting clothes on a 3D Character is more interesting to me then spending 30 hours finding the perfect outfit and playing around with deformers etc. Some though would say the absolute opposite. That sitting there painting is boring, dis-interesting, or they just can't seem to grasp it regardless of the amount of time or practice. (I feel that way with shaders LMAO. I've spent like 7+ years messing with shaders and I STILL don't quite "get" them LOL) We all, I think, have things like that in our lives in general. Areas we are prone towards or thrive at and those areas are different for everyone. Kinda like one person being a wiz at Algebra or Math while another can work and work at math and never quite catch on but maybe they are a brilliant writer.
In the case of art, no one principle is more important than the other and one is not "easier or harder" than the other to learn. They are all as easy or as hard as they are to each person personally and it varies as much from topic to topic (lighting, shaders, modeling, etc) as it does from 3D Application to 3D Application (which is why some like DAZ Studio, some Poser, some Carrara, some Bryce etc). Just like some swear by Windows computers and others by Macs. It depends what "speaks to you".
As far as the contest, I think the discussion seems to be focused on keeping things "fair for placing" in the contest or the worry some people may have an edge over another. In general, I don't feel that those that can do things in Photoshop etc have any more advantage than someone doing something in the 3D App alone and in many cases new users are often new to both. Coming into 3D, I actually taught Photoshop courses as part of a college workforce development program (though I oddly never painted in Photoshop, I more used it on the Photography side) and when I started in 3D, my 2D experience with Photoshop really helped little with how my artwork came out. (Just because, I have attached one of my first images below from back in 2005 which is about a year after I started and hopefully you will see it has its issues - my lighting being the most obvious and on topic for this month LOL - as learning is a process :) )
I have seen gorgeous renders come straight out of Daz Studio etc and I have seen people take a beautiful render and 2D Work it to death till it's less than it was originally. It's the same risks either way you go. In the contest, we only teach 3D and try to help people learn the apps most used here in a fun environment so our focus is there and trying to help people get a good starting render to work on in a 2D App or getting the perfect 3D Render period and doing no 2D work. Either way, your base render is fairly pivotal regardless of which way you go with it after you render. You will find people who are avid at doing "no postwork" and getting the most perfect 3D Render and others that are avid at wanting to "play" more with the image after the render. We have CVs here helping who belong to both groups :)
Also of note, in this contest we only allow someone to win first place once. Once they have won 1st place one time and at least placed in 2nd or 3rd another month, we graduate the person basically to allow for more people to win and also because we feel that by that point you are grasping things in a way that, while you may still learn (and you can still participate in the WIP thread etc), you have a fair amount of comfort to the point where you are ready to either help the others in the group (Mentoring) or to move on to other contests within the forums.
Karibou's Boutique made pretty good tutorials on Multipass Rendering in DAZ Studio. Those who are interested can check out her youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/karibousboutique/videos
She also explained it for Poser in one of her videos. I´m not familiar with Poser, but how she was presenting it, it looked like its build in the Render Settings by ticking the output channel you want. Maybe she mentioned a Plug-In and I´ve missed it. It was some time ago when I was watching it.
New versions of Poser do have some multi-pass capability but its not very in depth and its a bit hard to control. I personally use one I bought (on another site) that I prefer as it gives you a fair bit of control over what comes with the app. :)
I have read all this and am considering everything said here and am also discussing the issue with the CV Team. If anyone has anything more they would like to add, please do so in the next couple days and I will decide what to do and let you all know very soon :)
I have watched this discussion from a distance, as a newcomer to DAZ3D and as a participant in the January and February contests. A guiding principle in my life has been the "KISS Principle" (Keep it simple student). With that in mind I offer the following thoughts:
1. Avoid becoming too legalistic, beginners need as much latitude as possible. Positive reinforce should rule over legalistic precision.
2. As to who does or doesn't have this or that advantage, well . . . that will always be comparative. For example, anyone having experience with Photoshop has me at an absolute disadvantage. I, on the other hand have been using Painter since the very first version and have found that it meshes extremely well with DAZ3D for both "pre and post" refinement/enhancement. Anyone having formal or informal art training will have an advantage. Anyone having professional photographic experience will have an advantage. Advantage and disadvantage is part of life.
3. In my opinion, the current rules work well. They are written with sufficient ambiguity to afford the participants latitude.
In the end, this contest is about learning, that is what we "win." Having one's work recognized is of course nice, like whipped cream on fresh peaches. :)
Yes. In my opinion, it's problematic to single out a single aspect of producing an image - postwork - for harsher scrutiny. Using postwork isn't cheating, as long as postwork isn't used to avoid the contest's theme.
I agree.
When I first started using DAZ Studio I was of the opinion that "post work" was somehow cheating. I have since changed my mind on that. I still prefer to do as much as I possibly can within the program and the only post work I have done ( with 1 exception but it was not a contest entry of any kind ) is the addition of a signature. I have used GIMP to create texture maps and recently opacity maps which are then applied to a plane before rendering.
The use of a 2D program like Photoshop, GIMP, Painter, etc. takes as much skill as using Bryce, Poser, DAZ Studio, Carrara, etc. They are all the tools being used.
As I have already mentioned in the WIP thread, I do not have artistic or photographic training. Everything for me is a learning experience. Luckily for me ( or I would have quit a long time ago ) I like to learn.
I also participate in the Freebie Contest every month which has a very clear policy of No Post work. This rule is iron clad in that particular contest and will not change.
No matter how carefully you try to set up a set of rules for a contest there will always be individuals that will interpret those rules in ways that may be other than intended. I am not being critical of anyone or suggesting that someone would "cheat" on purpose. It is simply a fact of life. ( If we all read things exactly the same way we would have no need of Lawyers :-) ) People interpret information in different ways. The same way we all "see" different things in the images that have been posted.
DAZ_Ann does a wonderful job of trying to clarify the rules for anyone who is unsure ( another sign that people are trying to follow the spirit of the contest ).
Having a before and after image of post worked images in the Entry thread is not necessary IMO. Having those images in the WIP thread could be helpful for individuals, like myself, who do not have the experience in 2D programs. It would also allow the Judges to review the final image in the Entry Thread if there is some doubt.
There are as many forms of art as there are individuals who create that art. Some use oils, acrylics, and/or watercolour paints. Some use mixed media. Some sculpt. Some use what others would consider junk. Some are not “traditional” artists but create beautiful objects none the less, ie: anyone who restores a classic car.
Many “artists” do not consider 3D art true art. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If it speaks to you and you consider it art, then it is art, however you got there.
Just my 2 cents.
The wip thread and the contest thread are too far apart.
I go into the wip thread to learn 3D application techniques, and those are the bulk of the discussion and the bulk of actual learning.
We can see how the techniques improve and change images.
The entry thread is just another contest. We do not get to see how extensive the post work is, nor how to apply it. No learning. In most cases, not even a clue what was done. "some postwork". Then comes the argument that you should be able to use any technique, since at that point it is about "winning" and not learning.
I had decided long ago to not enter, entering last month was a lapse of judgement. It will not happen again.
I'm not "formally trained".
I use a different program to most of you, and have done all my 3D life. Even with Bryce there are different schools of thought. There are Bryce purists who want to do everything in Bryce, and there are those like me who import models into Bryce. I also admit to using postwork on some of my images, but sometimes I will leave the render exactly how it came out of Bryce
However there are some things I will not simulate with postwork. If I can't do it in the program I choose to use as my main program, then I won't do it.
My postwork, for my serious renders, mainly is adjusting colour balance, contrast and sometimes brigthness. I will also use a filter to simulate a more "painterly" effect or to simulate canvas. I also add frames and edgings. However the main part of the render is always done within the program.
I am not :formally trained" either :) Never taken an art class in my life other than what was required in high school to graduate :)
I did teach Photoshop but not because I was horribly artistic or something but because I am good at learning software in general and then explaining it to a broad audience. So I was asked to learn and teach it because the regular instructor took ill. Technically I am only trained in MS Office LOL (which obviously doesn't have much application to art :) )
A fair few people on this site are not formally trained. I would venture to say even that the majority isn't so don't let that discourage you :)
As for the contest and WIP Threads etc, you can participate in the WIP and just not enter the contest if you so choose :) though I will say regardless of what intent someone may have for "entering" the contest etc those judging the contest are looking for specific things and your mastery of post work is not one of them.
That said, I may open a thread somewhere around here for those that would like some 2D Tips/Tricks etc. Maybe that would help for those that feel that some that know more in that area "have a leg up" IDK I am still reading and thinking on all this atm.
Question, anyone around reading this that has never participated, only watched that wants to contact me directly aanderson@daz3d.com or post explaining your thoughts? I know there are those out there that do do that :) And I would like to hear from you all on what would make things more inviting :)
One more question:
Would you all be happier or still want to participate if there just was "No Contest" No competition, no extra pressure etc. In the past we did kinda not have a contest..we put it in place as a way to give someone something to kinda spur on them wanting to come and learn. I wouldn't be closed to removing the contest but I fear doing so we would lose the participation. Maybe I am wrong though? Thoughts?
Honestly, the best learning environment for the most people is a non-competitive one. An environment where you grow etc and are focused on "you" rather than "everyone else" and I would be completely for considering that. I just fear without some "incentive" people won't participate. We had tried it before and things dropped off but maybe there are other ways to ensure that wouldn't happen?